Schools to close on 24th November

Diarmuid

DanSolo wrote: »

Oh good. Then there's enough business out there for somebody else to hire 6 employees. And pay himself up to €150,000.
So in total Ireland now has the same number of workers (13) and *2* bossed getting €150,000. Win win.

Just to clarify, how many successful business have you started?

murphaph

DanSolo wrote: »

Bye bye. Sorry if I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone already on 150k who doesn't want to take a promotion. Maybe there shouldn't be any promotion past 150k? It would force employers to hire a second worker, so it's actually good for employment.:)

Arrrgh! You haven't a clue about taxation if you're proposing 100% taxes after ANY cutoff point. Read any taxation theory-the one thing they all agree on is that 0% and 100% taxation FAIL as they generate NO TAX REVENUE! Tax has to lie somewhere in between.

You've now realised that and are trying to claim it would force a company to hire a second employee, well in fact it wouldn't! In any case, it's really company directors here who'd be hit hardest and these are the very guys you want to be entrepreneurial and OPEN new businesses and keep hiring people and expanding into exports to the rest of the world.

Where's the incentive for me to build my firm up to be a world leading exporter when 'all'I will EVER take home in pay is say, 80 grand. Entrepreneurs (who we rely on to make money for Ireland) would simply move to Northern Ireland or further afield and setup companies there.

Your idea is approaching communism actually and we all saw how well that went.

murphaph

DanSolo wrote: »

Oh good. Then there's enough business out there for somebody else to hire 6 employees. And pay himself up to €150,000.
So in total Ireland now has the same number of workers (13) and *2* bossed getting €150,000. Win win.

It would suck if you're Quinn. So? If these times are are bad as people are making out then 150k should be all that anybody expects.

CRAZY stuff, just crazy.

If the United States had had the same taxation policy, how would you even be writing your posts? Microsoft has probably thousands of programmers, all working on bits of the next Windows release. How would a modern operating system (just for example, could be any product) be developed by a company with 6 employees? Come on, tell us?

ei.sdraob

Diarmuid wrote: »

Just to clarify, how many successful business have you started?

1

its successful since it doesnt have debts i suppose and still filing tax returns

i wish i could pay myself 150K

but money doesnt grow on trees or gets handed out by the government for doing nothing in the real world

anyways dont mind the ramblings of this "frontline" private sector taxpayer, i better bent over and take more tax

gurramok

deemark wrote: »

A jumbo mortgage?????!!!!! Don't make me laugh. I'm not living in Dublin. When I went looking for the loan, 4 of the big banks more or less laughed in my face, looking at the multiples of my salary and the house prices. If one bank allowed me to 'overextend' myself, I hardly think that public servants have the monopoly on that one or are responsible for the country being broke.

Nevermind how you obtained a big mortgage while on contract, how can a 10% paycut affect your outgoings in a big way?

You'll survive. Banks were only allowed to offer max 35-40% of your(you or a couple) net income towards a mortgage so where is the other 60% going to?

It doesn't add up considering you said you were earning 50k? (correct me if i'm wrong on that figure)

ei.sdraob

gurramok wrote: »

You'll survive. Banks were only allowed to offer max 35-40% of your(you or a couple) net income towards a mortgage so where is the other 60% going to?

a property in Bulgaria

alot of these were bought by teacher types

Darragh29

This just occured to me yesterday when I was out and about...

(1) Irish is a compulsory subject for the Leaving Certificate student. Despite everyone who sits the Leaving Certificate HAVING to study Irish, virtually nobody in the country from outside an Irish speaking area, can speak Irish fluently...

(2) In 2008, 50,116 students sat the Leaving Cert maths papers...

5,803 or whom, (11.6 percent) took the foundation-level papers. Someone who has to sit the foundation level maths paper basically has a major problem with maths, in effect they are sitting a paper that would be closer to the Junior Cert curriculum.

Of the 35,803 (71.4 percent), who sat the Ordinary Level Maths paper, 12.3% of students failed the Ordinary Maths papers...

So that's 4,404 students that failed ordinary level maths in 2008. Add the 5,803 students to the above number who were basically not competent enough in maths to sit the ordinary level paper (the people who basically were taught nothing in the leaving cert curriculum), and you have a breath taking 10,207 students who have failed to demonstrate a basic competency in maths at the end of their school life...

Now I don't think this can all be laid at the feet of students. There is no proper measurement of performance of teachers in this country, when is the last time a teacher was dismissed for not doing their job right???

In light of over 10,000 students failing to prove a basic competency in maths in the leaving cert of 2008, I think these teachers should forget about striking and start looking at how some of them are clearly unable to teach.

You have to ask what in the name of all that is serious, is going on within the education system when 20.36% of all leaving cert students that sat a maths paper, failed to pass the Leaving Cert ordinary level paper, which is the minumum required for most jobs that I've ever seen...

What are we at, seriously, WHAT ARE WE AT HERE, paying teachers extremely well, well up over 30K A YEAR for a new teacher, 12 weeks paid holiday per year, and out of the system we get 20% of students who don't even have a very basic grasp of maths??? How are we gonna build a smart economy on these statistics???

This notion of automatic pay increases is revolting. In the private sector, if you perform you get a pay increase over and above what you get to keep you up with inflation and if you don't perform, then very often you don't get a pay increase. You can see what is happening here, yearly automatic pay increases being given for no results, so nobody gives a sh*t about the results and so we continue.

:mad::mad::mad:

Statistics source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaving_Certificate_Mathematics

westtip

rebel10 wrote: »

Look if teaching is that lucrative then why aren't you doing it? by what you say, you seem to think you could. Look, yes many teachers earn 60k, but once again these teachers have been teaching 30+ yrs. .

Wish I could unfortunately the national school teaching route is closed out to me as I was educated in the UK and have no irish at leaving cert level - and could not teach in an irish national school without irish - this discriminates against any uk trained teacher for example.

Re secondary school teachign try to get a job in Ireland if you are not from within the closed shop system - anyone got any stats on how many well qualified graduates from outside of Ireland are teaching here? I haven't but my guess is it would not be that many.

RE 30 years experience not true: A graduate with a couple of positions of extra curricular r"esponsibility", for example running the school choir or playground duties (yes they get paid extra for this!!!) and 18 years experience might be on about 65K a year. In the UK a similar level of teacher will be on about 32K sterling.

Overpaid - high opinion of their own value, and quite simply need to be bought down to earth.

hellboy99

Shut up complaining and take the cut, it won't be forever. The country is in a right state, other people have taken hits / greater hits than yourselves, ie. lost their jobs.

We are no longer living in "boom" times, people need to get real and realise that harse decisions and cut backs need to be made. At the end of the day you still have a job and a good salary.

Darragh29

This depression is the best opportunity we will ever have to get all these issues with underperformance sorted out for once and for all...

Teachers should be told that there is no problem with a high salary, once the results are there for everyone to see.

Darragh29

hellboy99 wrote: »

At the end of the day you still have a job SECURE JOB with no accountability or need to perform to remain in the job and a good salary.

Says it all...

ParkRunner

Darragh29 wrote: »

Says it all...

No accountability

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/InspectionandProbation/InspectionofSchoolsCircular3182/

DanSolo

Darragh29 wrote: »

You have to ask what in the name of all that is serious, is going on within the education system when 20.36% of all leaving cert students that sat a maths paper, failed to pass the Leaving Cert ordinary level paper, which is the minumum required for most jobs that I've ever seen...

What's going on? Believe it or not some people are born stupid and will never pass maths. You can't blame any teacher for that. Plus teachers will have a degree and a HDip, that's 5 years training, before they even get to a school. Why shouldn't they get more than the industrial average for that? Better trained -> better paid.
Or would you take the guy from the Esso shop and have him teaching applied maths to a class of 30 for minimum wage?

diverdriver

Anyway this debate is all very well and good. But at the end of the day, in fact the end of the budget day in December the teachers and all the rest will be taking a pay cut. They can go on strike forever if they like but they cannot escape the reality that the money is not there to continue to pay their salaries.

Cut it any way you like. You will take pay cuts now because if you don't you will take them later when things get a whole lot worse.

There does seem to be air of unreality around many PS workers. But not all. I firmly believe most people realise it's inevitable and are just hoping to minimise it's impact on them. This pointless strike by teachers will achieve nothing other than to convince parents that teachers don't live in the real world with the rest of us. Even though most of them do and know damm well they cannot avoid these cuts.

I do believe that the basic common sense of most PS workers is already coming through. I believe those 'once in a generation' demonstrations were a huge disappointment to the union agitators. They were smaller than expected and made little or no impact.

This strike will do nothing and change nothing. Enjoy your day off teachers.

DanSolo

Darragh29 wrote: »

Says it all...

The changing of quotes is a bit sneaky, no?
Anyway, (yet again) there's lots of public sector workers who aren't permanent an will most likely see nothing from their pension levy either because they're on contract.

OMD

Just heard on Joe Duffy from a teacher who claims unions do not have mandate to strike before budget. Wording of ballot was to go on strike "if" government cut pay, conditions etc. He claims as this has not happened strike should not go ahead.

jimmmy

Darragh29 wrote: »

This just occured to me yesterday when I was out and about...

(1) Irish is a compulsory subject for the Leaving Certificate student. Despite everyone who sits the Leaving Certificate HAVING to study Irish, virtually nobody in the country from outside an Irish speaking area, can speak Irish fluently...

(2) In 2008, 50,116 students sat the Leaving Cert maths papers...

5,803 or whom, (11.6 percent) took the foundation-level papers. Someone who has to sit the foundation level maths paper basically has a major problem with maths, in effect they are sitting a paper that would be closer to the Junior Cert curriculum.

Of the 35,803 (71.4 percent), who sat the Ordinary Level Maths paper, 12.3% of students failed the Ordinary Maths papers...

So that's 4,404 students that failed ordinary level maths in 2008. Add the 5,803 students to the above number who were basically not competent enough in maths to sit the ordinary level paper (the people who basically were taught nothing in the leaving cert curriculum), and you have a breath taking 10,207 students who have failed to demonstrate a basic competency in maths at the end of their school life...

Now I don't think this can all be laid at the feet of students. There is no proper measurement of performance of teachers in this country, when is the last time a teacher was dismissed for not doing their job right???

In light of over 10,000 students failing to prove a basic competency in maths in the leaving cert of 2008, I think these teachers should forget about striking and start looking at how some of them are clearly unable to teach.

You have to ask what in the name of all that is serious, is going on within the education system when 20.36% of all leaving cert students that sat a maths paper, failed to pass the Leaving Cert ordinary level paper, which is the minumum required for most jobs that I've ever seen...

What are we at, seriously, WHAT ARE WE AT HERE, paying teachers extremely well, well up over 30K A YEAR for a new teacher, 12 weeks paid holiday per year, and out of the system we get 20% of students who don't even have a very basic grasp of maths??? How are we gonna build a smart economy on these statistics???

This notion of automatic pay increases is revolting. In the private sector, if you perform you get a pay increase over and above what you get to keep you up with inflation and if you don't perform, then very often you don't get a pay increase. You can see what is happening here, yearly automatic pay increases being given for no results, so nobody gives a sh*t about the results and so we continue.

:mad::mad::mad:

Statistics source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaving_Certificate_Mathematics

Thats Irish + Maths we are not great at. Do not even talk about continental / foreign languages. Stop any Irish person, young or old, in the street + try to get a sentence out of the in French or German + you would have a better chance of winning the lottery. Our teachers and educational system leave a lot to be desired in many cases, despite being paid way more than teachers etc abroad.

In this country, those who can, do...
Those who can't , teach.

DanSolo

diverdriver wrote: »

Cut it any way you like. You will take pay cuts now because if you don't you will take them later when things get a whole lot worse.

The private sector answer always seems to be "cut public sector wages", while the public sector answer is "increase everybody's taxes". 10% extra tax will be the same as a 10% pay cut for the public sector, but for some reason the private sector doesn't feel the need to take this hit.

jimmmy

DanSolo wrote: »

The private sector answer always seems to be "cut public sector wages", while the public sector answer is "increase everybody's taxes". 10% extra tax will be the same as a 10% pay cut for the public sector, but for some reason the private sector doesn't feel the need to take this hit.

Maybe something to do with the fact the private sector is already much worse off than the public sector with regard to pay, pensions, security, hours worked etc.

Stark

The private sector has already taken the hit both in terms of salary cuts and job losses. You can't just keep piling on the taxes to shelter the public sector from economic realities. People deserve some sort of value for money from their taxes.

97i9y3941

in the private sector if you wont take a paycut they fire and replace you quick or close the place down,end of..

Darragh29

DanSolo wrote: »

What's going on? Believe it or not some people are born stupid and will never pass maths. You can't blame any teacher for that. Plus teachers will have a degree and a HDip, that's 5 years training, before they even get to a school. Why shouldn't they get more than the industrial average for that? Better trained -> better paid.
Or would you take the guy from the Esso shop and have him teaching applied maths to a class of 30 for minimum wage?

In my hoop mate. Are you telling me that there is something in the water in Ireland that has one in six Irish students unable to grasp basic maths??? You can study for 5 years and still end up in a job that you don't really give a sh*t about apart from the salary and on that basis, fail to perform.

I'm all for better trained equals better paid, but only when better trained equals better results!!!

A piece of paper should entitle you to nothing more than an interview for the job, the idea that you have a degree and a H.Dip and therefore can teach and remain in a job for life with no measure of your performance and no real accountability, is insanity.

I did my Leaving Cert in 1994 and I can remember the absolutely atrocious standard of teaching... I encountered more wasters who ended up in teaching jobs because they wouldn't have been able to hold down a job in the private sector between drinking problems, laziness, attendance problems, and Jasus knows what else...

OMD

DanSolo wrote: »

The private sector answer always seems to be "cut public sector wages", while the public sector answer is "increase everybody's taxes". 10% extra tax will be the same as a 10% pay cut for the public sector, but for some reason the private sector doesn't feel the need to take this hit.

Unions over react to pay cuts. We should expect about 5% pay cut. To someone earning €50k a year this is €2500 in gross pay. However now the teacher does not have to pay pension contribution, pension levy, income tax or other levies on this amount. So on net pay it is a reduction of €750 a year or €15 a week. Teachers earning 33% above median wage are saying stuff children, stuff parents and stuff everyone else, they won't give up their €15 a week. Pure greed. Pure greed. Pure greed.

jimmmy

many in the private sector - the self employed- are making very little but have no option ....

97i9y3941

half of the maths/irish stuff you woundnt use again when you go out working,i remember in school the classmates would often ask what was the point of certain things,and to the teachers brutal honesty he said its on the course...

Darragh29

EF wrote: »

No accountability

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/InspectionandProbation/InspectionofSchoolsCircular3182/

More rubbish, the only acceptable form of accountability to me is one that is based on actual academic results.

If you are teaching ordinary level English and you have pupils failing in your class, then you should have very real problem on your hands as a teacher. This should be dealt with as a performance issue.

97i9y3941

theres people losing their houses,struggleing to keep their job if any,some are on the dole living off the €204 a week and we have a public sector people strikeing over a fecking small cut on their pay,shame..

DanSolo

Darragh29 wrote: »

More rubbish, the only acceptable form of accountability to me is one that is based on actual academic results.

If you are teaching ordinary level English and you have pupils failing in your class, then you should have very real problem on your hands as a teacher. This should be dealt with as a performance issue.

Is this not also true of the private sector? For years we've been (relatively) happy with private v public sector pay while the private sector, by which I don't mean the toilet cleaners, have been doing OK. Now that the private sector have failed their "performance test" they want to drag the public sector down with them.

DanSolo

Darragh29 wrote: »

More rubbish, the only acceptable form of accountability to me is one that is based on actual academic results.

So would you pay a teacher in Rialto less than a teacher in Sandymount then? I can guarantee you which one's students have higher academic results.

Darragh29

DanSolo wrote: »

So would you pay a teacher in Rialto less than a teacher in Sandymount then? I can guarantee you which one's has higher academic results.

This is fudging the issue. There should be a minimum standard set and meeting that standard on an ongoing basis, regardless of where the school is located, ought to be a requirement for continuing in the job as a teacher. No need to complicate the issue with comparing a school in location A to a school in location B. Schools A and B should both be expected to meet a certain minimum standard, the basis of which should be academic results and nothing else...