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Schools to close on 24th November

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    #422
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Now that the private sector have failed their "performance test" they want to drag the public sector down with them.

    It's called benchmarking. You were only too happy to accept it when it worked to your advantage.


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    #423
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Is this not also true of the private sector? For years we've been (relatively) happy with private v public sector pay while the private sector, by which I don't mean the toilet cleaners, have been doing OK. Now that the private sector have failed their "performance test" they want to drag the public sector down with them.

    I really hope you're not a teacher, because if so I really fear the future of this country.

    Going on what you are saying, you clearly don't have any sort of basic grasp of economics..


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    #424
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    This is fudging the issue. There should be a minimum standard set and meeting that standard on an ongoing basis, regardless of where the school is located, ought to be a requirement for continuing in the job as a teacher. No need to complicate the issue with comparing a school in location A to a school in location B. Schools A and B should both be expected to meet a certain minimum standard, the basis of which should be academic results and nothing else...
    Sorry, that's lunacy. Who'd want to work in Rialto then where you're pretty much guaranteed to get fired due to "poor performance" no matter how good a teacher you are? That's a private sector idea that just doesn't work in the public services.


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    #425
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    hobochris wrote: »
    I really hope you're not a teacher, because if so I really fear the future of this country.

    Going on what you are saying, you clearly don't have any sort of basic grasp of economics..
    And you don't have any basic grasp of discussion if you think you've added anything to this thread with that post.


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    #426
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Considering you're the one suggesting 100% tax rates, I don't think you have a basic grasp of anything.


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    #427
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    herya wrote: »
    It's called benchmarking. You were only too happy to accept it when it worked to your advantage.
    That'd be great if you could show me anywhere that this is a benchmarking. It's a cut to fit how much money the government want to save, not any kind of comparison with equivalently qualified and experienced private sector workers.


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    #428
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Stark wrote: »
    Considering you're the one suggesting 100% tax rates, I don't think you have a basic grasp of anything.
    Er, and I think you don't either? That was fun wasn't it?


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    #429
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    That'd be great if you could show me anywhere that this is a benchmarking. It's a cut to fit how much money the government want to save, not any kind of comparison with equivalently qualified and experienced private sector workers.

    I remain hopeful, note recent Mary Harney's remarks. Now a real benchmarking you wouldn't like either since I believe it's 26% to be cut.


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    #430
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Schools A and B should both be expected to meet a certain minimum standard, the basis of which should be academic results and nothing else...
    So if your company sells ice-pops and sends you to Greenland on a commission only salary, what would you expect to happen?


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    #431
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    herya wrote: »
    I remain hopeful, note recent Mary Harney's remarks. Now a real benchmarking you wouldn't like either since I believe it's 26% to be cut.
    That's if you assume public and private sector workers are equally qualified, which would be an incorrect assumption. If you want to take out all the hotel workers and bartenders who have no training you'll find that "average inductrial wage" isn't quite 26% lower than the public sector.


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    #432
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Sorry, that's lunacy. Who'd want to work in Rialto then where you're pretty much guaranteed to get fired due to "poor performance" no matter how good a teacher you are? That's a private sector idea that just doesn't work in the public services.

    It works if you establish standard pass & cert rates for eachs chool separately and teachers who fall short with regard to their own school rates are in trouble. Surely you can't compare very different areas but you don't need to.


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    #433
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    That's if you assume public and private sector workers are equally qualified, which would be an incorrect assumption. If you want to take out all the hotel workers and bartenders who have no training you'll find that "average inductrial wage" isn't quite 26% lower than the public sector.

    And qualified equals efficient since when? How is a hospital cleaner different froma hotel cleaner? But let them compare teachers with teachers, bar stuff with bar stuff and janitors with janitors. You won't like it anyway because it will still be decent two figures, especially if you price job security. I'll dig up some links if I have a free moment.


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    #434
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    herya wrote: »
    It works if you establish standard pass & cert rates for eachs chool separately and teachers who fall short with regard to their own school rates are in trouble. Surely you can't compare very different areas but you don't need to.
    So what are the "right" pass rates for different parts of the country? Who sets them? Do they change over time? Who will you pay to operate this scheme?


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    #435
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    DanSolo wrote: »
    That's if you assume public and private sector workers are equally qualified, which would be an incorrect assumption. If you want to take out all the hotel workers and bartenders who have no training you'll find that "average inductrial wage" isn't quite 26% lower than the public sector.

    The ESRI report took all that into account when drawing up the comparison.

    Read here for an analysis: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml


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    #436
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Sorry, that's lunacy. Who'd want to work in Rialto then where you're pretty much guaranteed to get fired due to "poor performance" no matter how good a teacher you are? That's a private sector idea that just doesn't work in the public services.

    You see this is exactly where the problem is... The whole attitude here is completely wrong and defaults every single time, back to the unquestionable right of the teacher to remain in the job, over the right of the child to be educated to a standard that is considered to be acceptable...

    If you look at where teachers actually do have to perform, in order for them to remain in their job, for example, teachers working in this school:

    http://www.ioe.ie/

    You'll see outstanding results...

    Measurement of performance and results and deciding on a course of action based on a set of results is not a "private sector idea" as you have suggested.

    It's absolutely central to being human, to wanting to continually improve and better ourselves, it's what makes us different from the apes and the monkeys! Every organisation that innovates, that engages with technological advances, that questions how it is performing and seeks to improve that performance, will succeed and thrive, whether it be a charity shop, a government department, a classroom, a multinational, or a small business...

    The teachers just don't get this, they constantly try to shake off any suggestion that they should be accountable for class results. I've yet to hear them giving a single compelling reason why they should remain unaccountable for their performance.


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    #437
    tapo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30 ✭tapo


    Teachers have lost the ability to live in the real world. Do they not understand what is happening to our economy????????


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    #438
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    So what are the "right" pass rates for different parts of the country? Who sets them? Do they change over time?

    Seriously, do I really need to explain it? Each school has its own history of pass rates, based on this a standard is set which is realistic enough to meet but ambitious enough to improve. Any teacher that falls significantly below the line is in trouble. That's all.
    DanSolo wrote: »
    Who will you pay to operate this scheme?

    Overpaid senior school staff should do just fine.


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    #439
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    herya wrote: »
    How is a hospital cleaner different froma hotel cleaner?
    Are they different? I think you'll find 99% of both group are already on temporary private sector contracts.


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    #440
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Are they different? I think you'll find 99% of both group are already on temporary private sector contracts.

    Well according to your argument anyone working in the public sector is more qualified hence my question.


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    #441
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    herya wrote: »
    Well according to your argument anyone working in the public sector is more qualified hence my question.
    But they don't get paid any different from private sector workers (which is what they are employed as) so your question makes no sense to begin with.


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    #442
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    But they don't get paid any different from private sector workers (which is what they are employed as) so your question makes no sense to begin with.

    OK scrap the cleaners answer the rest.


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    #443
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Stark wrote: »
    The ESRI report took all that into account when drawing up the comparison.

    Read here for an analysis: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml
    Same website.
    http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1012294.shtml
    Apart from the pensions, which have now been addressed with the pension levy, apparently there isn't much difference in pay.


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    #444
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    herya wrote: »
    bar stuff with bar stuff
    After your hilarious hospital cleaners question, would you care to tell me how many "public sector publicans" there are? Please? The Dáil bar?


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    #445
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    DanSolo wrote: »
    After your hilarious hospital cleaners question, would you care to tell me how many "public sector publicans" there are? Please? The Dáil bar?

    FF backbenchers?


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    #446
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Same website.
    http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1012294.shtml
    Apart from the pensions, which have now been addressed with the pension levy, apparently there isn't much difference in pay.

    And what does the report say?
    The Benchmarking Body found that, in general, public service salaries at these levels compare well with the private sector. No increase is recommended for the vast majority of grades examined.

    Surprise surprise. Pity they haven't really discussed decreases - but that's not the point of the report is it?
    Jan 10, 2008

    Very current indeed. Quite a lot has happened since then and not in favour of the private sector.


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    #447
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Same website.
    http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1012294.shtml
    Apart from the pensions, which have now been addressed with the pension levy, apparently there isn't much difference in pay.

    I'd be interested to know how you came to that conclusion based on the article you linked. Excluding pensions, there's a 25% pay gap. That page values the pensions at approximately 12% of salary. It also mentions that benchmarking was a sham and pay increases were only justified for 15 out of 109 grades.


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    #448
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Stark wrote: »
    FF backbenchers?
    I'm afraid that's wasted on me as I hate FF/FG/Lab as much as anybody.


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    #449
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    DanSolo wrote: »
    After your hilarious hospital cleaners question, would you care to tell me how many "public sector publicans" there are? Please? The Dáil bar?

    Compare what you want friend you'd still be due a two figure cut if anything resembling a real benchmarking was put in place :cool:


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    #450
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Stark wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know how you came to that conclusion based on the article you linked. Excluding pensions, there's a 25% pay gap. That page values the pensions at approximately 12% of salary. It also mentions that benchmarking was a sham and pay increases were only justified for 15 out of 109 grades.
    I can't find the number 25 anywhere on that page. Sorry.
    What I can find is
    The Benchmarking Body found that, in general, public service salaries at these levels compare well with the private sector.
    It doesn't say "exceeds" or "falls short" it says "compare well". i.e. the same.


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    #451
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    herya wrote: »
    Seriously, do I really need to explain it? Each school has its own history of pass rates, based on this a standard is set which is realistic enough to meet but ambitious enough to improve. Any teacher that falls significantly below the line is in trouble. That's all.
    Exactly. We don't compare teachers in Rialto with teachers in Sandymount. We compare teachers in Rialto with teachers in Rialto and teachers in Sandymount with teachers in Sandymount!

    I believe most teachers are decent and do a reasonably good job (but always room for improvement) but there are undoubtedly bad apples who need eliminating from the system and we need to find them.

    If class 2 in Rialto are all passing maths and 20% or whatever are failing geography, then the geography teacher needs looking at, not to difficult eh DanSolo??

    Oh Dan, you didn't answer my question posed earlier....
    How does a company of only 6 people develop an operating system, or other complex product which we might like to export overseas?

    You're the bright spark who said companies need never have more than 6 employees.


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