Schools to close on 24th November

rebel10

westtip wrote: »

Wish I could unfortunately the national school teaching route is closed out to me as I was educated in the UK and have no irish at leaving cert level - and could not teach in an irish national school without irish - this discriminates against any uk trained teacher for example.

Re secondary school teachign try to get a job in Ireland if you are not from within the closed shop system - anyone got any stats on how many well qualified graduates from outside of Ireland are teaching here? I haven't but my guess is it would not be that many.

RE 30 years experience not true: A graduate with a couple of positions of extra curricular r"esponsibility", for example running the school choir or playground duties (yes they get paid extra for this!!!) and 18 years experience might be on about 65K a year. In the UK a similar level of teacher will be on about 32K sterling.

Overpaid - high opinion of their own value, and quite simply need to be bought down to earth.

Once again, utter nonsense. Needing Irish to teach at primary level has nothing to do with teachers. Thank Dev for that. There is a native German teaching in my school, when i was in school we had a french male teaching us...guess...french. I wonder have you actually researched the possibility of going into secondary teaching? What is your degree? The teachers that do get extra pay have specific roles, something like choir, basketball, hockey, rugby etc. etc. is done voluntarily by teachers. If the school has money, not often, they will employ a trained member of the public to teach other extra curricular activities. "Playground duties" as you put it, is in fact the part of the job that many teachers opt not to do, because of the fact that you are responsible for so many people. In my school 3 teachers are assigned to different areas at break times, before school, lunch, tea break and after school.On average that means you are looking after 250 kids yourself, and 500 for the other teachers. If little Mary falls down a flight of steps, breaks her leg and you were trying to break up a fight in another room, you are completely responsible for Mary. As i have said before, one such case has happened in our school, and the teacher was held accountable and brought to the board. It is still under investigation. Now i don't know how many 18 yr old lads you know, but i can tell you life has changed since the days where you were handed a ball and told to go out in the "playground."
Please re-check that 65k figure after 18 yrs, completely wrong.

Scofflaw

This is getting a little personal - please keep the discussion civil.

moderately,
Scofflaw

murphaph

..

Stark

DanSolo wrote: »

I can't find the number 25 anywhere on that page. Sorry.

"Same website".

DanSolo

murphaph wrote: »

You're the bright spark who said companies need never have more than 6 employees.

Liar. I said nobody needed more than €150,000 a year.

Go on, give me some spurious line about "implied".

DanSolo

murphaph wrote: »

If class 2 in Rialto are all passing maths and 20% or whatever are failing geography, then the geography teacher needs looking at, not to difficult eh DanSolo??

Yes, very difficult. Not all subjects have the same pass rates nationally so you are proposing penalising teachers of more difficult subject. Again, a private sector solution i.e. eliminate the "difficult" parts which just doesn't work in the public service.

Dannyboy83

Stark wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how you came to that conclusion based on the article you linked. Excluding pensions, there's a 25% pay gap. That page values the pensions at approximately 12% of salary. It also mentions that benchmarking was a sham and pay increases were only justified for 15 out of 109 grades.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/
This is the common basic scale excluding all allowances etc.


On the common basic scale alone, there is a 70% pay gap between a standard science graduate and a teaching graduate.

All things considered, the smallest wage one earns is approx €35,000 starting off, which is not far off double what the most other graduates earn.

In fact, one can earn up to €65,000 even without a post of responsibility, although it takes years. This is a sham in itself - if you not qualified to do the job after 5/6 years, you probably shouldn't be doing it.The wage scale is definitely way too high, but in fairness to the junior teachers, they shouldn't have to wait so long to move up it either, its nonsense.

In the primary sector, one can earn up to €109,000 per year.

Scofflaw

DanSolo wrote: »

Liar. I said nobody needed more than €150,000 a year.

Go on, give me some spurious line about "implied".

Sorry, that's not acceptable. Cool down or get banned.

moderately,
Scofflaw

murphaph

DanSolo wrote: »

Yes, very difficult. Not all subjects have the same pass rates nationally so you are proposing penalising teachers of more difficult subject. Again, a private sector solution i.e. eliminate the "difficult" parts which just doesn't work in the public service.

I DELIBERATELY picked maths a geography as examples as I think we can all recollect from our schooldays-more people have trouble with the abstract nature of subjects like maths than with mountains and rivers, so more people struggle to pass maths exams, so if a class in school A all sail through a subject which is known to be more difficult and struggle in an easier one, the geography teacher can't cut the mustard, yeah?

funkyjebus

gurramok wrote: »

They do anything to protect that 60k average pay packet. (source Dept of Education http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html)

This must be the most ill informed topic on here. Average 60K. They only get 60K after 35 years service, which they deserve. People are too harsh on teachers, do you really want to go scabby on your childs education. Also they are not looking for public sympathy. They just don't want their pay cut yet again. The pension levy was crippling to most. My GF is a teacher and works at home until 8 or 9 most night correcting copies, etc. The levy took 300eur off her per month, she on the basic salary.

They are right to strike, and you'd all do the same in their position. And if you wouldn't then you obviously like being raped by the Gov. Talk to a teacher are research your facts before such stupid ill informed comments.

PS. Not all teached , like my GF voted for strike action, but are forced to.

murphaph

DanSolo wrote: »

Liar. I said nobody needed more than €150,000 a year.

Go on, give me some spurious line about "implied".

Here's the trail;

SegaBoy wrote:

I could have keep expanding and employing many many more people. The demand was there, the business model was good-but the Government decided to put a cap on the amount I earn at €150k. So I decided to keep it at 13 employees and the rest I could have hired are still on the dole queue.

You wrote:

Oh good. Then there's enough business out there for somebody else to hire 6 employees. And pay himself up to €150,000.
So in total Ireland now has the same number of workers (13) and *2* bossed getting €150,000. Win win.

So you stated, not even implied, that it is ok to disincentivise any entrepreneur from expanding his firm beyond that size where he will earn a penny over 150k. The figure of 6 employees per firm is your own.

No firm with an owner earning a maximum of 150k is EVER going to be a world leader in ANYTHING, so with your policy we would never create large exporting indigenous industries.

You accept that the 150k cap on income would lead to firms ceasing to expand beyond a handful of employees yet you persevere with the idea as being sound.

Do you still maintain that disincentivising anyone to earn over 150k is a good idea?

rebel10

murphaph wrote: »

I DELIBERATELY picked maths a geography as examples as I think we can all recollect from our schooldays-more people have trouble with the abstract nature of subjects like maths than with mountains and rivers, so more people struggle to pass maths exams, so if a class in school A all sail through a subject which is known to be more difficult and struggle in an easier one, the geography teacher can't cut the mustard, yeah?

Classes are generally streamed now, weaker students in one class stronger students in another. First of all the teacher of the stronger class is not going to have the same levels of differenciation that the other teacher will have. for god's sake, i don't think you realise that not all students have same learning abilities. I have come across students who if they leave school being able to write their name and address, they have achieved their goal. the state examinations do not, in many subjects, take these students and their severe learning difficulties into account. I teach a subject and examine that subject for the state exams, they don't take into consideration each students ability. Unfortunately, i have had to fail students at ordinary level, because there is no foundation in the subject, who have done their best and tried their hardest with their teachers help, but they still have not performed to the standard students level. I don't think its fair, but a teacher should not be punished because their classes may be weaker than the next. For some students, to sit an exam alone is an achievement.

Dannyboy83

funkyjebus wrote: »

This must be the most ill informed topic on here. Average 60K. They only get 60K after 35 years service, which they deserve. People are too harsh on teachers, do you really want to go scabby on your childs education. Also they are not looking for public sympathy. They just don't want their pay cut yet again. The pension levy was crippling to most. My GF is a teacher and works at home until 8 or 9 most night correcting copies, etc. The levy took 300eur off her per month, she on the basic salary.

They are right to strike, and you'd all do the same in their position. And if you wouldn't then you obviously like being raped by the Gov. Talk to a teacher are research your facts before such stupid ill informed comments.

PS. Not all teached , like my GF voted for strike action, but are forced to.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63035378&postcount=460

Stark

funkyjebus wrote: »

They are right to strike, and you'd all do the same in their position.

No-one in the private sector went on strike when the Government reduced their take home pay last December and April. (That being irrespective of any cuts imposed by employers to reflect fiscal reality). Assuming you meant 300 loss on gross salary, your girlfriend must have been earning over €48k per annum in order to lose that much. That's a fairly generous salary.

Dannyboy83

DanSolo wrote: »

I was just saying that if ALL salaries in Ireland were to decrease then teaching would remain just as attractive. Tax is the way to do this rather than cuts. (Though I think I'd go for some sort of sliding scale, i.e. 100% of everything over €150,000 to maybe no extra taxes on €40,000)

We could put a cap on teachers working over 4 years??
Keep costs down.

segaBOY

DanSolo wrote: »

Liar. I said nobody needed more than €150,000 a year.

Go on, give me some spurious line about "implied".

DanSolo wrote: »

Oh good. Then there's enough business out there for somebody else to hire 6 employees. And pay himself up to €150,000.

The worst thing about this arguement is that there is a paper trail over in the related post where you specifically state 6 employees.

For the record I both disagree that no company needs to employ more than 6 employees OR that nobody needs to earn over €150k a year.

If either of these policies were implemented in such a small country like Ireland would be banished back to an over dependent agricultural back water with mass emigration and no industry. We would fail to function in the EU.

Just a question-how do you feel about our corporate tax being the lowest in the EU at only 12.5?

Pharaoh1

In my area a couple both national teachers retired in the summer with 40 years service obviously spooked by the possibility of a substantial tax on their gratuity.
Both were excellent dedicated teachers.
I just did a quick calculation of pension benefits (open to correction here)
As he was school principal assume 80k salary and 60k for her (these are probably conservative).
Lump sum would be 140 x 1.5 = 210,000
Pension would be 40k + 30k = 70k per annum

These retirees have no doubt done best from the system as they would not have paid full prsi, the pension levy only since April so their contribution was really only superannuation.

If say the state pension or other social welfare payments are to be cut by say 5% in the budget surely a case could be made for a higher cut of 15 -20% for these retirees. I presume that their pension would reduce by the same percentage as any pay cut for those currently teaching or is it possible that they would not be touched even if there is a pay cut.

I am reluctant to be critical in the particular case but at the same time for a household (no mortgage, kids gone etc..) to receive such a generous transfer from the taxpayer for what was a minimal contribution (ie not much more than PRSI in percentage salary terms) seems a bit much.
Haven't heard much debate about those in this particular group

DanSolo

murphaph wrote: »

Here's the trail;

Is this going to be "implied" anyway even though you're trying to make out it isn't?

murphaph wrote: »

So you stated, not even implied, that it is ok to disincentivise

Ah, I see. And that the same as a quote from me saying no company should have more than 6 employees?

Mederator: If you can warn me for calling this lying about what murphaph is saying, then please give murphaph a warning about the lying too. Thanks.

sonic.trip

absolute clowns across the board, makes me bitterly angy. I'm an electrician and an engineer and cant get a full time job anywhere for the last year and these wasters have jobs for life or as good as and they want to strike when the sh*t hits the fan and when everyone else takes pay cuts.

GET REAL YOU WASTERS, WAKE UP..............

I think they should strike for as long as they want and then give them all the boot and give all the student, graduate teachers that ACTUALLY want to work the jobs and we get these high paid, economic draining, pension robbing wasters out of our lives

hell i'll even go in and teach and the reduced price, morons

oh and how many months holidays do we give these knuckleheads a year?? not to mention sick days.

When I worked its simple, if you didnt work you didnt get paid, I think O'Keefe and co should throw that in there as well, let them all wake up to the REAL world

DanSolo

segaBOY wrote: »

The worst thing about this arguement is that there is a paper trail over in the related post where you specifically state 6 employees.

The worst thing about "the paper trail" is that you still can't show me where I said a company shouldn't have more than 6 employees without some "implied" twaddle.

segaBOY

sonic.trip wrote: »

absolute clowns across the board, makes me bitterly angy. I'm an electrician and an engineer and cant get a full time job anywhere for the last year and these wasters have jobs for life or as good as and they want to strike when the sh*t hits the fan and when everyone else takes pay cuts.

GET REAL YOU WASTERS, WAKE UP..............

I think they should strike for as long as they want and then give them all the boot and give all the student, graduate teachers that ACTUALLY want to work the jobs and we get these high paid, economic draining, pension robbing wasters out of our lives

hell i'll even go in and teach and the reduced price, morons

I recall the TEEU had a similar pickle a few months ago?

Did you support or reject their cause?

segaBOY

DanSolo wrote: »

The worst thing about "the paper trail" is that you still can't show me where I said a company shouldn't have more than 6 employees without some "implied" twaddle.

Forget about it. The cap on €150k would be equally as devistating, you'd be left with a few cottage industries in a world with multinationals and economies of scale.

Anyway, what are your views on the 12.5% corporation tax we have in Ireland, it's the lowest in the EU.

DanSolo

sonic.trip wrote: »

I'm an electrician and an engineer and cant get a full time job anywhere

So? Neither can I.

sonic.trip wrote: »

these wasters have jobs for life or as good as

No they don't. I don't.

segaBOY

DanSolo wrote: »

So? Neither can I.


No they don't. I don't.

The reason why newly qualified teachers can't get jobs is that the payroll is too high. This needs to be reduced before any departments can take on new staff. You are completely opposed to any wage reduction so you really can't have it both ways.

Darragh29

rebel10 wrote: »

Classes are generally streamed now, weaker students in one class stronger students in another. First of all the teacher of the stronger class is not going to have the same levels of differenciation that the other teacher will have. for god's sake, i don't think you realise that not all students have same learning abilities. I have come across students who if they leave school being able to write their name and address, they have achieved their goal. the state examinations do not, in many subjects, take these students and their severe learning difficulties into account. I teach a subject and examine that subject for the state exams, they don't take into consideration each students ability. Unfortunately, i have had to fail students at ordinary level, because there is no foundation in the subject, who have done their best and tried their hardest with their teachers help, but they still have not performed to the standard students level. I don't think its fair, but a teacher should not be punished because their classes may be weaker than the next. For some students, to sit an exam alone is an achievement.

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading here. If you're the teacher, it's your job not just to stand up in front of a class and dispense information to the class, it's your job and your colleagues job to motivate the student so that they aspire to more than being able to write their name and address down on a piece of paper when they leave school.

I had a teacher in 3rd class and I remember him knowing what each child was good at and what each child was not good at. He copped that I was good with literature and he encouraged me to read books more, he used to bring me in books to read at home. That was around 25 years ago if not longer back, and now I can sit here and write very well and communicate very well. He copped I wasn't strong at maths and he took action to bring me up in that area. He didn't accept that because I was good at literature, that he didn't need to teach me in that area, he saw to it that I excelled at what I was naturally good at and was assisted in what I was not naturally good at.

Teaching is not just a job, it's a vocation and if you are not able to use all your personal resources to educate a child, then I suggest you are working in the wrong field.

DanSolo

segaBOY wrote: »

Forget about it.

That was pretty quick in coming when asked for a direct quote, wasn't it?

segaBOY wrote: »

The cap on €150k would be equally as devistating, you'd be left with a few cottage industries in a world with multinationals and economies of scale.

I thought Ireland was in such a desperate state that nobody earned this much? Except the bankers, top civil servants and consultants who would be at least as walloped (according to the "overpaid public sector" theory) as the private sector.

segaBOY wrote: »

Anyway, what are your views on the 12.5% corporate tax we have in Ireland, it's the lowest in the EU.

It's worked to get companies into Ireland, but now those companies have no customers there's no corporate tax rate will make them stay.
Not that I'm even sure what that has to do with this specifically.

murphaph

rebel10 wrote: »

Classes are generally streamed now, weaker students in one class stronger students in another. First of all the teacher of the stronger class is not going to have the same levels of differenciation that the other teacher will have. for god's sake, i don't think you realise that not all students have same learning abilities. I have come across students who if they leave school being able to write their name and address, they have achieved their goal. the state examinations do not, in many subjects, take these students and their severe learning difficulties into account. I teach a subject and examine that subject for the state exams, they don't take into consideration each students ability. Unfortunately, i have had to fail students at ordinary level, because there is no foundation in the subject, who have done their best and tried their hardest with their teachers help, but they still have not performed to the standard students level. I don't think its fair, but a teacher should not be punished because their classes may be weaker than the next. For some students, to sit an exam alone is an achievement.

Do you believe there is no way to differentiate one bad teacher from one good one? I had streaming too when I was in school but the top class stayed together for all the subjects they were taking.

The point about some students being just about able to read and write is a strawman because such students will do do poorly in general, with perhaps an odd exception (maybe art?). Such a poorly performing student wouldn't single out his geography teacher and just perform badly there.

The system itself needs changing, I'm not advocating that we start tomorrow with sacking teachers based on last years leaving certs. I'm advocating wholesale reform of primary and second level education in Ireland, continuous assessment, teacher rankings etc.

sonic.trip

segaBOY wrote: »

I recall the TEEU had a similar pickle a few months ago?

Did you support or reject their cause?

I rejected it, I was lucky to have a small day job that particular day of the strike(s) and was asked by other builders/plumbers, why I wasn't on strike. I said I was lucky to be even working let alone striking.

In fairness that increase was due for over 3 years as every other sector in construction was nearly on a higher hourly wage but I totally disagree with striking for a pay increase in a recession or even refusing to take a paycut when you 4/5 months paid holidays per year, guarnateed job for life practically and a pension/sick pay.

DanSolo

segaBOY wrote: »

The reason why newly qualified teachers can't get jobs is that the payroll is too high. This needs to be reduced before any departments can take on new staff. You are completely opposed to any wage reduction so you really can't have it both ways.

I'm not a teacher.

segaBOY

sonic.trip wrote: »

I rejected it, I was lucky to have a small day job that particular day of the strike(s) and was asked by other builders/plumbers, why I wasn't on strike. I said I was lucky to be even working let alone striking.

In fairness that increase was due for over 3 years as every other sector in construction was nearly on a higher hourly wage but I totally disagree with striking for a pay increase in a recession or even refusing to take a paycut when you 4/5 months paid holidays per year, guarnateed job for life practically and a pension/sick pay.

Good man, they shut down a plant I was working in and we lost 1,000s and were treathened with redundancies. Glad to see there's some sense out there.

Sorry to hear bout lack of work btw, all you can do is keep going, chin up mate.