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Schools to close on 24th November

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    #482
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Teaching is not just a job, it's a vocation
    "vocation" is the word private sector workers like to use to say you should do more work for less because you love it. Why can't entrepreneur and electrician be "vocations"?


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    #483
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    DanSolo wrote: »
    I thought Ireland was in such a desperate state that nobody earned this much? Except the bankers, top civil servants and consultants who would be at least as walloped (according to the "overpaid public sector" theory) as the private sector.

    A few CEOs of medium sized Irish businesses (those things that make the money) would earn that much. Capping their salaries only reduces their incentive to generate wealth and employment and we also lose out on the top rate tax that they would have been paying.


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    #484
    sonic.trip
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭sonic.trip


    segaBOY wrote: »
    Good man, they shut down a plant I was working in and we lost 1,000s and were treathened with redundancies. Glad to see there's some sense out there.

    Sorry to hear bout lack of work btw, all you can do is keep going, chin up mate.

    when times are tough you just need get on with it, people should just accept we need to take these cuts like lots of other people have done, we simply cannot sustain the high level of pay and pensions that all these sectors get.


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    #485
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    DanSolo wrote: »
    That was pretty quick in coming when asked for a direct quote, wasn't it?

    oh hai,
    DanSolo wrote: »
    Oh good. Then there's enough business out there for somebody else to hire 6 employees. And pay himself up to €150,000.
    DanSolo wrote: »
    I thought Ireland was in such a desperate state that nobody earned this much? Except the bankers, top civil servants and consultants who would be at least as walloped (according to the "overpaid public sector" theory) as the private sector.

    That's what you thought? I sure didn't make that statement but you obviously thought wrong in that post.
    DanSolo wrote: »
    It's worked to get companies into Ireland, but now those companies have no customers there's no corporate tax rate will make them stay.
    Not that I'm even sure what that has to do with this specifically.

    So do you think it should stay the same, be raised or what?
    DanSolo wrote: »
    I'm not a teacher.

    Hmm, sorry I was led to believe this from:
    sonic.trip wrote: »
    these wasters have jobs for life or as good

    And your reply:
    DanSolo wrote: »
    No they don't. I don't.

    You don't what? If you are not a teacher how do your terms of employment mirror teachers terms of employment? Your post implied you were one.


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    #486
    sonic.trip
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭sonic.trip


    DanSolo wrote: »
    "vocation" is the word private sector workers like to use to say you should do more work for less because you love it. Why can't entrepreneur and electrician be "vocations"?

    because some of us don't agree with pay increases in a recession...not to mention the crap pension and no sick pay I used to get. . .


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    #487
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    segaBOY wrote: »
    The reason why newly qualified teachers can't get jobs is that the payroll is too high. This needs to be reduced before any departments can take on new staff. You are completely opposed to any wage reduction so you really can't have it both ways.

    Oh god, I can't wait to hear the excuses they'll dream up to contradict this:D


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    #488
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Is this going to be "implied" anyway even though you're trying to make out it isn't?

    Ah, I see. And that the same as a quote from me saying no company should have more than 6 employees?

    Mederator: If you can warn me for calling this lying about what murphaph is saying, then please give murphaph a warning about the lying too. Thanks.
    I'm not lying. I'm quoting you directly. Everyone can see what's going on.

    You are in favour of nobody earning more than 150k a year (by taxing at 100% all the money they make over this threshold), correct?

    Entrepreneurs who want to grow their business in Ireland will not do so if they know that it's completely pointless as the govt will take every penny over 150k that they earn, correct?

    Firms will be limited therefore to a handful of employees (probably less than 6 actually) as they will remain small time as the owner has no incentive to grow the business, correct?

    Therefore no Irish firm will ever grow to challenge on the world market, correct?

    If ANY of this is wrong, please state how it is so.

    Can you think of ANY big multinational that would exist today if the tax regime in their country of origin had employed 100% taxation on earnings over 150k for their founder??


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    #489
    Eathrin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,076 ✭✭✭Eathrin


    Its all rubbish, everyone needs to make sacrifices. If I were in charge everyone would make a 10% wage decrease or so in the public sector, welfare, polititians etc... We need a way around the recession but we have to make sacrifices.


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    #490
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    DanSolo wrote: »
    "vocation" is the word private sector workers like to use to say you should do more work for less because you love it. Why can't entrepreneur and electrician be "vocations"?

    You picked the wrong boyo to have this argument with... Being an entrepreneur is a vocation if there ever was one... I can speak about this from experience as I am one. Starting up a business, 16-18 hour days, not paying yourself when everyone else gets paid, the stress of the whole thing, the uphill struggle that starting up a business actually is, the sheer uncertainty, a whole load of other things like relationships and starting a family, all having to get pushed out until you can take a wage from the business...

    I don't complain about it though because it is what I chose to do, so I get on with it and work hard. Do I "get paid" for all the work that I do?????????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't get paid a fraction for the effort that I put in, but I ensure it in the hope that I will improve my circumstances through sheer hard work and commitment to my vision...


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    #491
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    murphaph wrote: »
    I'm not lying. I'm quoting you directly. Everyone can see what's going on.
    You take, what 6 or 7 "logical" :-) steps from what I said to what you claim I said and you call that a direct quote?
    Come on now. This is pretty easy. If I said "companies shouldn't have more than 6 employees" you should really just be able to link to that post, yes?


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    #492
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You picked the wrong boyo
    Oh yeah, now I'm in big trouble.
    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Starting up a business, 16-18 hour days, not paying yourself when everyone else gets paid, the stress of the whole thing, the uphill struggle that starting up a business actually is, the sheer uncertainty, a whole load of other things like relationships and starting a family, all having to get pushed out until you can take a wage from the business...
    Oh my god, we've found the only man on earth who works hard and has these problems. Get over yourself mate.


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    #493
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    DanSolo wrote: »
    You take, what 6 or 7 "logical" :-) steps from what I said to what you claim I said and you call that a direct quote?
    Come on now. This is pretty easy. If I said "companies shouldn't have more than 6 employees" you should really just be able to link to that post, yes?

    Please read the start of my post on this issue. You said that if you capped a business at €150k they would be able to employ 6 employees. I hope you can see this.


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    #494
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    segaBOY wrote: »
    You don't what?
    I don't have a permanent job.
    Sorry if that was overly complicated.
    segaBOY wrote: »
    If you are not a teacher how do your terms of employment mirror teachers terms of employment?
    I'm on contract like many teachers and many public sector workers.
    segaBOY wrote: »
    Your post implied you were one.
    No it didn't. You guessed. Badly.


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    #495
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    DanSolo wrote: »
    I don't have a permanent job.
    Sorry if that was overly complicated.

    I'm on contract like many teachers and many public sector workers.

    No it didn't. You guessed. Badly.

    Glad we are clearing things up.

    Can I ask you a question on your economic principals? We agree that you don't think anyone should earn above €150,000.

    Just want to clarify something, corporation tax in Ireland. Should it stay the same at a meager 12.5%?


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    #496
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    DanSolo wrote: »
    You take, what 6 or 7 "logical" :-) steps from what I said to what you claim I said and you call that a direct quote?
    Come on now. This is pretty easy. If I said "companies shouldn't have more than 6 employees" you should really just be able to link to that post, yes?
    Tackle those 6 or 7 steps then if you can spot a flaw in my logic. Which step is false? Which step does not follow on from the last?

    I started with your proposal to tax all earnings over 150k from Entrepreneurs and worked from there to the logical conclusion that Ireland would NEVER grow multinational companies with such a tax regime.

    Tell me which assumption is wrong, and why.


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    #497
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Oh yeah, now I'm in big trouble.

    Oh my god, we've found the only man on earth who works hard and has these problems. Get over yourself mate.

    Get over yourself, you wouldn't know what hard work is. Do you think the rest of us are making it all up, how difficult things are at the moment??? I've had to slash my salary, people had to be let go, people who are kept on have to work twice as hard, there's no such thing as protecting the lazy or the incompetent or hiding behind unions. It's get the job done or pull down the shutters. You are light years away from the sheer dispair and enormous difficulty that many many people in the private sector are struggling to deal with right now...


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    #498
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    segaBOY wrote: »
    You said that if you capped a business at €150k they would be able to employ 6 employees.
    Nope. Guess again. I said if an "entrepreneur" didn't want to hire more than 6 staff because it wouldn't bump up his salary then there's obviously more of the same work around for another company to do.
    Can I ask again for you to QUOTE where I said companies should only have 6 employees? Without the opinion on what I might have meant please?


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    #499
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    DanSolo wrote: »
    Nope. Guess again. I said if an "entrepreneur" didn't want to hire more than 6 staff because it wouldn't bump up his salary then there's obviously more of the same work around for another company to do.

    So essentially it would lead to a company only employing 6 employees? As as you said, an "entrepeneur" didn't want to hire more than six staff due to salary reasons. (It would bump down his salary btw)


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    #500
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    sonic.trip wrote: »
    absolute clowns across the board, makes me bitterly angy. I'm an electrician and an engineer and cant get a full time job anywhere for the last year and these wasters have jobs for life or as good as and they want to strike when the sh*t hits the fan and when everyone else takes pay cuts.

    GET REAL YOU WASTERS, WAKE UP..............

    I think they should strike for as long as they want and then give them all the boot and give all the student, graduate teachers that ACTUALLY want to work the jobs and we get these high paid, economic draining, pension robbing wasters out of our lives

    hell i'll even go in and teach and the reduced price, morons

    oh and how many months holidays do we give these knuckleheads a year?? not to mention sick days.

    When I worked its simple, if you didnt work you didnt get paid, I think O'Keefe and co should throw that in there as well, let them all wake up to the REAL world

    +1. Post of the year I reckon...


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    #501
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    funkyjebus wrote: »
    My GF is a teacher and works at home until 8 or 9 most night correcting copies, etc. The levy took 300eur off her per month, she on the basic salary.

    If she lost 300 a month off her basic salary that means her basic salary is over 52,000 a year.


    They are striking for what they feel might happen. They have not been raped by anyone. Someone on 52,000 a year loosing 300 a month before tax is not being raped. Also with her yearly increment her pay would have increased 2.5% or about 100 a month. So before tax her pay is 200 a month less. After tax it is down about €80. God my heart bleeds. How can she cope. No new car for her this year. May have to go out 1 night less every month.


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    #502
    implausible
    Registered Users Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    gurramok wrote: »
    Nevermind how you obtained a big mortgage while on contract, how can a 10% paycut affect your outgoings in a big way?

    You'll survive. Banks were only allowed to offer max 35-40% of your(you or a couple) net income towards a mortgage so where is the other 60% going to?

    It doesn't add up considering you said you were earning 50k? (correct me if i'm wrong on that figure)

    The same way a 10% paycut affect ANYONE's outgoings in a big way, never mind the further 10% that's being proposed!

    You don't know anything about my personal or professional circumstances, past or present, so less of the personal digs please. I was merely pointing out that a few years ago, young teachers and other public servants were finding it hard to get mortgages. The banks didn't want to know about us.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    a property in Bulgaria

    alot of these were bought by teacher types

    Another example of the media and general public's stereotypical perception of teachers:rolleyes:

    btw, what's a 'teacher type'?


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    #503
    jpt77
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭jpt77


    I'm a secondary school teacher and I voted against the strike. The unions are afraid that if they dont flex their muscle then more wage cuts will be introduced and jobs lost in education in the future as well as increasing productivity. Not everyone is making a packet in schools. The senior teachers have a very comfortable existance as seniority really pays off with A posts etc. but those of us on temporary contracts are worried like anyone else. However, that said, we are overpaid in the current climate. There are ways to get better value for money. Cut wages and change the disastrous substitution and supervision system in place. It costs a fortune and is a joke. I know that I am lucky that I chose to be a teacher and that I am in employment. I work hard for my wage. I coach a school team which adds another 10-20 hours a week depending on if there are matches. I know the holidays are great, but that is the system that is in place. It's up to the dept to change it if they want. Costs everywhere have to come down though.


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    #504
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I honestly can't believe what I'm reading here. If you're the teacher, it's your job not just to stand up in front of a class and dispense information to the class, it's your job and your colleagues job to motivate the student so that they aspire to more than being able to write their name and address down on a piece of paper when they leave school.

    I had a teacher in 3rd class and I remember him knowing what each child was good at and what each child was not good at. He copped that I was good with literature and he encouraged me to read books more, he used to bring me in books to read at home. That was around 25 years ago if not longer back, and now I can sit here and write very well and communicate very well. He copped I wasn't strong at maths and he took action to bring me up in that area. He didn't accept that because I was good at literature, that he didn't need to teach me in that area, he saw to it that I excelled at what I was naturally good at and was assisted in what I was not naturally good at.

    Teaching is not just a job, it's a vocation and if you are not able to use all your personal resources to educate a child, then I suggest you are working in the wrong field.
    Please just listen to me, you obviously, from what i am reading, were able to retain information to a good level, literacy was probably quite good, you say maths was your weak point, as for me! What i am saying is that some students don't have that ability to take in information and then to be able to spout it out in an exam. In often cases, there are s.n.a.'s employed to help these students, mainly physically, the teacher is employed to teach these students as best as they possibly can. If a student comes into secondary school, unable to write correct to the standards of their learning age, they are given assistance by a special needs teacher as well as their subject teacher. You cannot imagine the level of learning difficulties in the schools. The student is there to learn, but they can only ever achieve a certain level of learning, they will never be at the standard of an average student, and thus, they can only work at their own levels and goals. I honestly don't think you realise the extremes of learning abilities in the classroom. the state exams don't cater for these students, unfortunately. A student could be fifteen and have a reading age of 8. This is just the way it is, you can't get him/her to pick up a few books and make it all ok, I don't think you realise the amount of work teachers and others do with these students, they are not failing them, they are encouraging them to achieve the best they can but unfortunately this is often not enough to pass an exam. Don't get me started on resources, bring this up with the gov. This area is often poorly funded by the dept. I just wish you could come to one of my classrooms and see the amount of compassion and energy a teacher gives to one student.


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    #505
    sonic.trip
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭sonic.trip


    Quote From Today's Six One News:

    Brian Dobson: "160,000 people have lost their jobs in the last year, And how many of your members have lost jobs"?...

    Answer from that teachers union clown.......... A big fat what????......0

    he then goes on to say so your members have job security to which a lot of people would be more than happy to have and would consider themselves lucky, also the cost of living has dropped 6-7% and what pay reduction have they taken???

    Answer that you ECONOMIC DRAINING SWINES


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    #506
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    murphaph wrote: »
    Do you believe there is no way to differentiate one bad teacher from one good one? I had streaming too when I was in school but the top class stayed together for all the subjects they were taking.

    The point about some students being just about able to read and write is a strawman because such students will do do poorly in general, with perhaps an odd exception (maybe art?). Such a poorly performing student wouldn't single out his geography teacher and just perform badly there.

    The system itself needs changing, I'm not advocating that we start tomorrow with sacking teachers based on last years leaving certs. I'm advocating wholesale reform of primary and second level education in Ireland, continuous assessment, teacher rankings etc.

    Yes i do believe you can differenciate a good from a bad teacher. Unfortunately you know very little about the art curriculum, which is not taught in my school, but i know about. The leaving cert curriculum for art has 37.5% given to art history, the subject is often regarded as a doss subject, but in actual fact, this subject, along with physics, coming second, is the hardest subject for students to obtain an A. But anyway, the extreme cases i gave as examples are just examples. I am all for continuous assessment, it is fairer to students, particularly those who have learning difficulties. As you say though, in some cases these students may excel in certain subjects. Students with asberghers, in my experience, are either extremely practical or the opposite extremely academic. One of my students recieved A's in every subject, bar home ec. and music which he failed in second yr. However, nobody failed teaching him in these subjects, in fact greater effort was made with him, but if teachers were accountable for the results he received, would that be fair?


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    #507
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    sonic.trip wrote: »
    Quote From Today's Six One News:

    Brian Dobson: "160,000 people have lost their jobs in the last year, And how many of your members have lost jobs"?...

    Answer from that teachers union clown.......... A big fat what????......0

    he then goes on to say so your members have job security to which a lot of people would be more than happy to have and would consider themselves lucky, also the cost of living has dropped 6-7% and what pay reduction have they taken???

    Answer that you ECONOMIC DRAINING SWINES

    0????:eek: Realise that not all teachers have perm contracts! Jesus, how many times. After all this, are people that ignorant of all the job cuts we have been talking about in teaching, please read past threads:(


  • Options
    #508
    sonic.trip
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭sonic.trip


    rebel10 wrote: »
    0????:eek: Realise that not all teachers have perm contracts! Jesus, how many times. After all this, are people that ignorant of all the job cuts we have been talking about in teaching, please read past threads:(

    well then ask the head of into or whoever was on the six one news to get his facts right, yet another waste of space if he can't even get a figure right


  • Options
    #509
    SwanV
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭SwanV


    The temporary teachers who are also the lowest paid teachers have lost their jobs.
    Many temporary teachers would gladly take a pay cut so that they might have a job for the next school year.

    Permanent teachers are not so keen to take a cut. They know it is inevitable but it is legal to show the government that at the same time they are pissed off.


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    #510
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    rebel10 wrote: »
    0????:eek: Realise that not all teachers have perm contracts! Jesus, how many times. After all this, are people that ignorant of all the job cuts we have been talking about in teaching, please read past threads:(

    There are fewer teaching posts - which presumably means there will be redundant teachers. 509 fewer at secondary level and 200-300 fewer at primary?

    Out of how many teachers is that, exactly?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #511
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Please just listen to me, you obviously, from what i am reading, were able to retain information to a good level, literacy was probably quite good, you say maths was your weak point, as for me! What i am saying is that some students don't have that ability to take in information and then to be able to spout it out in an exam. In often cases, there are s.n.a.'s employed to help these students, mainly physically, the teacher is employed to teach these students as best as they possibly can. If a student comes into secondary school, unable to write correct to the standards of their learning age, they are given assistance by a special needs teacher as well as their subject teacher. You cannot imagine the level of learning difficulties in the schools. The student is there to learn, but they can only ever achieve a certain level of learning, they will never be at the standard of an average student, and thus, they can only work at their own levels and goals. I honestly don't think you realise the extremes of learning abilities in the classroom. the state exams don't cater for these students, unfortunately. A student could be fifteen and have a reading age of 8. This is just the way it is, you can't get him/her to pick up a few books and make it all ok, I don't think you realise the amount of work teachers and others do with these students, they are not failing them, they are encouraging them to achieve the best they can but unfortunately this is often not enough to pass an exam. Don't get me started on resources, bring this up with the gov. This area is often poorly funded by the dept. I just wish you could come to one of my classrooms and see the amount of compassion and energy a teacher gives to one student.

    Well what you are forgetting is that I've been through the whole school system, and from what I recall, there are very few teachers that are any good at what they do.

    There might have been the odd lad in a class that had to stay back a year or needed remedial classes for subjects like English, but from my recollection, most lads I was in school with, had the mental capability to be taught, they were able to digest information, retain it and understand what they were being taught...

    Now how it's all apparently changed since I was in school is a mystery to me. If I'm to believe the teachers, the population has been "dumbed down" an awful lot since I was in school....

    I look back to my days in school and recall some of the laziest, unmotivated people I have ever seen, in teaching positions and I think that that is where the problem is...


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