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Schools to close on 24th November

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    #542
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Look at your post, this is what the teaching profession are best at, which is leading people away from the key argument and getting into all sorts of side arguments about why they cannot do a better job. I'm not interested in your excuses, just do what you are very well renumerated to do and you'll have no issue with me...

    Look, I, if you had read any of the threads am not very well renumerated, as someone said on Marianne Finucane, temp teachers would be better off on the dole claiming rent allowance. I do what i do because i trained for the job and don't see the point in giving up the few hrs i have had the last few years because of money. I am not leading people away from key argumentents, if again you bothered to look at past posts, you will find that i am just responding to allegations made about the teaching profession. Someone yesterday made the comment that we should be taking cuts because we don't have to deal with rush hour traffic! And you claiming i'm leading people away from the argument, ye are trying to come up with everything you can think of to throw at teachers. I also strongly believe spending 6 yrs in secondary school, does not qualify you to judge students and teachers across the board. How many teachers have you come across? Well if all of them were as bad as you say they were, then God only knows how you managed to become the career minded, intelligent person you are today.


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    #543
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Well I'd argue that you haven't tried hard enough to work with him with a view to encouraging him that his better interests lie in applying himself and getting a decent leaving cert.

    Tell me, when you did you H. Dip, were you not trained how to work with students to overcome these kind of difficulties???

    Guards are trained to work to overcome these kind of difficulties but often fail,
    Surgeons are trained likewise but often fail,
    Vodafone website staff are trained but always fail,
    BT billing staff are trained to overcome difficulties but regularly fail,
    Banks are trained but still seem to make mistakes,

    Training helps in situations but won't always resolve the situation.


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    #544
    namenotavailablE
    Registered Users Posts: 59,625 ✭✭✭✭namenotavailablE


    20% of people leaving school, had failed to achieve a pass grade in what is considered to be the minimum standard in maths for most jobs and for any college place, which is a D3 in the ordinary level paper.

    I don't have stats for 2008 and am relying on a report prepared and available for viewing at http://www.stopgradeinflation.ie/LC.pdf.
    This report shows the grades analysis applying to the 2006 Leaving Cert cohort. Page 7 of the report indicates that the percentage failing maths was 3.2% of LC students. However, clearly this can change over time.

    If you could provide a link to a more up-to-date link detailing the Pass/Fail percentages for 2008 I'd be much obliged.

    Free Excel net pay calculator- https://taxcalc.eu/monthlyss/Employee%20PAYE%20calculator.xlsm



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    #545
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    sonic.trip wrote: »
    exactly, yet another waste of taxpayers money, hell, in college from day one it was bet into my head to always back up your numbers, shows what a state this country is in paying clowns like that 100k+ a year. . .
    Union heads are paid from Union dues. They are private sector.
    I didn't expect you to know that.


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    #546
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I spent many years in the educational system of this country and I can say for certain that it is an absolute and utter disgrace. Forget for a minute what my views are, the facts bear this out, 20% of school leavers not having a proficiency in maths is a absolute disgrace, these are the facts.

    No, your "20%" is a fact. Your "utter disgrace" is conjecture.


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    #547
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    DanSolo wrote: »
    No, your "20%" is a fact. Your "utter disgrace" is conjecture.

    Obviously this is how low standards have now fallen to within the teaching community, where 20% of school leavers with no basic competency in maths, is something other than an utter disgrace.


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    #548
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Obviously this is how low standards have now fallen to within the teaching community, where 20% of school leavers with no basic competency in maths, is something other than an utter disgrace.
    It may be an utter disgrace or not, but you have no evidence that this is connected with poor teaching standards, so teachers themselves have no reason to feel disgraced.


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    #549
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    rebel10 wrote: »
    0????:eek: Realise that not all teachers have perm contracts! Jesus, how many times. After all this, are people that ignorant of all the job cuts we have been talking about in teaching, please read past threads:(

    That wasn't a teachers union, it was the head of the Principal Officers Union, people on between 60 and 100k.

    77% of the education budgets goes on pay. How anybody thinks they can cutback without touching it, I don't know.

    And how temporary teachers think this is going to improve their chances of retaining or getting a new contract, baffles me!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #550
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    Page 4 of
    http://www.skillsireland.ie/media/egfsn081215_raising_mathematical_achievement.pdf
    would suggest that, while far from world beaters, we have better maths skills in Ireland than France, the UK, Norway and Spain.
    That's hardly "a disgrace" is it?

    EDIT: And according to the original documeny
    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/13/39725224.pdf
    we're better educated in maths than the US.


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    #551
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    K-9 wrote: »
    And how temporary teachers think this is going to improve their chances of retaining or getting a new contract, baffles me!

    Why would it baffle you? Raise taxes, pay cuts, of course older teachers with permanent contracts are going to retire, leaving hopefully a few posts for us. At this point, i think most agree that we will be cut, we can accept that if people in this country earning wages higher than most are cut. do you disagree?


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    #552
    joekingdom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭joekingdom


    The only reason that teachers' pay is such a high proportion of education spending is because we've never had a government that had any genuine commitment to funding education. We have one of the lowest rates of investment in education in OECD countries. We wouldn't have a computer or library book or piece of PE equipment if it wasn't for Tesco tokens. Parents Associations all over the country are fundraising to keep schools going.
    Government can find money for NAMA, roads, bypasses, you name it but there's never any for education.
    I heard an economist on Marian Finucane state only yesterday that a teacher on €40 grand a year is worse off in real terms than someone on Social Welfare with rent allowance, Medical card etc.
    Very few teachers in middle class areas could afford houses where they teach.I know teachers driving from Mullingar, Portlaoise, Athy every to teach in Dublin. They can't write their diesel off against tax.


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    #553
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Why would it baffle you? Raise taxes, pay cuts, of course older teachers with permanent contracts are going to retire, leaving hopefully a few posts for us. At this point, i think most agree that we will be cut, we can accept that if people in this country earning wages higher than most are cut. do you disagree?

    Not at all, so why are temporary teachers for the strike?

    On teachers retiring, they'll try and avoid replacing people who retire further down the line. The Governments hands are kind of tied on this one as they can't cut numbers other than by not renewing temporary contracts or not replacing retiring teachers. The alternative is redundancies or similar.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #554
    littlebsci
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭littlebsci


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Well I'd argue that you haven't tried hard enough to work with him with a view to encouraging him that his better interests lie in applying himself and getting a decent leaving cert.

    Tell me, when you did you H. Dip, were you not trained how to work with students to overcome these kind of difficulties???

    And I would argue that you clearly don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about.

    It's all very well to live in fantasy land and think that we, as teachers, have either the time or the resources to 'reach out' constantly to students like the one RT mentioned.

    The point is not that no amount of encouraging works with some students. Yes, it certainly does with a number of students who are on the brink of disaster education wise but I think it might be fair to say that there are very few teachers out there who haven't come across those pupils who, no matter what you try, have absolutely no interest in what you are doing with them.

    And quite frankly these will often even laugh at a teacher's efforts to give them the extra help and encouragement needed to help them work to the best of their ability. How much of that do you actually expect teachers to put up with? Do you expect us to act as punching bags for these kids just to satisfy the standards you seem to believe you have a God given right to set for education?

    We differentiate our teaching to encourage most and least able and also the most and least motivated. I know I have to make sure I plan activities that will keep my students who hate Science entertained and challenge those who love it and want to do well. No easy task but it's my job and I love it. I'm in no way complaining about this element of my chosen career before someone takes my statement completely out of context.

    I don't think it serves any of your arguments well to jump to conclusions about any individuals' ability in a classroom.


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    #555
    toratora
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭toratora


    it's a pity the anger of so many of the contributors on this topic isnt directed at those in power who caused this mess or seem incapable of sorting it out. Your personal insults on teachers debase many of your arguments many of which have merit. I am a teacher and i oppose cuts as I feel the idiots in charge are morally bankrupt bereft of ideas and dont have a clue how to sort this out. But you are entitled to your views even those who claim its not like your being raped. helpful comment indeed. Have to go get my placard ready:D


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    #556
    namenotavailablE
    Registered Users Posts: 59,625 ✭✭✭✭namenotavailablE


    http://www.skillsireland.ie/media/eg...chievement.pdf

    Good find- pg 2 that notes that the number of students failing to gain the minimum maths grade of D3 amounts to 5000 students.
    On a base of 60,000 (+/-?) LC students, the percentage is in the region of 8%.
    While it's not something that anyone can be thrilled about, it is certainly better than a figure of 20% of all Leaving Cert students (which would be shocking if correct).

    Free Excel net pay calculator- https://taxcalc.eu/monthlyss/Employee%20PAYE%20calculator.xlsm



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    #557
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    joekingdom wrote: »
    The only reason that teachers' pay is such a high proportion of education spending is because we've never had a government that had any genuine commitment to funding education. We have one of the lowest rates of investment in education in OECD countries. We wouldn't have a computer or library book or piece of PE equipment if it wasn't for Tesco tokens. Parents Associations all over the country are fundraising to keep schools going.
    Government can find money for NAMA, roads, bypasses, you name it but there's never any for education.
    I heard an economist on Marian Finucane state only yesterday that a teacher on €40 grand a year is worse off in real terms than someone on Social Welfare with rent allowance, Medical card etc.
    Very few teachers in middle class areas could afford houses where they teach.I know teachers driving from Mullingar, Portlaoise, Athy every to teach in Dublin. They can't write their diesel off against tax.

    Ah, wonder what the percentage spend will be at the end of the year?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #558
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    K-9 wrote: »
    Not at all, so why are temporary teachers for the strike?

    On teachers retiring, they'll try and avoid replacing people who retire further down the line. The Governments hands are kind of tied on this one as they can't cut numbers other than by not renewing temporary contracts or not replacing retiring teachers. The alternative is redundancies or similar.

    Yes there will be redundancies, tell me whats better though, holding out and seeing if you will have a job next year or joining the dole Q? I'm striking because of the impact the cuts will have on temp teachers and below average pay.


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    #559
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    sonic.trip wrote: »
    probably subsidised or funded in some way/shape or form from the taxpayer again, who knows...
    Yup, union subscriptions are tax deductible so the non-union taxpayer subsidises union subs indirectly.


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    #560
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Yes there will be redundancies, tell me whats better though, holding out and seeing if you will have a job next year or joining the dole Q? I'm striking because of the impact the cuts will have on temp teachers and below average pay.

    Redundancies? Haven't heard that, any links?

    I don't get the logic though. By supporting a strike on pay cuts this somehow means, seeing if you have a hope of a job next year or joining the queue. Is there going to be a miraculous recovery in our tax base sometime soon?

    If pay remains at current rates forget about any hope of temporary positions. If there is pay cuts, the Govt. may have a little leeway. Not much but a damn site more than no cuts.

    No doubt if the Unions got their way and kept current pay rates, they'd then moan about cuts to the budget and services! :rolleyes:

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #561
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    murphaph wrote: »
    Yup, union subscriptions are tax deductible so the non-union taxpayer subsidises union subs indirectly.

    True. One of the "cuts" recommended by An Bord Snip too.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #562
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    K-9 wrote: »
    True. One of the "cuts" recommended by An Bord Snip too.
    I'm with An Bord Snip on that. It's up to a worker to decide to join the union and up to him to pay for the privilege.


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    #563
    DanSolo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭DanSolo


    K-9 wrote: »
    No doubt if the Unions got their way and kept current pay rates, they'd then moan about cuts to the budget and services! :rolleyes:
    They wouldn't have to if taxes were increased instead.


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    #564
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Why would it baffle you? Raise taxes, pay cuts, of course older teachers with permanent contracts are going to retire, leaving hopefully a few posts for us. At this point, i think most agree that we will be cut, we can accept that if people in this country earning wages higher than most are cut. do you disagree?

    I don't think we're really in a position where public servants can say they'll take a cut "if so-and-so does" - and if so-and-so isn't being paid by the government the argument isn't even relevant.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #565
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    K-9 wrote: »
    Redundancies? Haven't heard that, any links?

    I don't get the logic though. By supporting a strike on pay cuts this somehow means, seeing if you have a hope of a job next year or joining the queue. Is there going to be a miraculous recovery in our tax base sometime soon?

    If pay remains at current rates forget about any hope of temporary positions. If there is pay cuts, the Govt. may have a little leeway. Not much but a damn site more than no cuts.

    No doubt if the Unions got their way and kept current pay rates, they'd then moan about cuts to the budget and services! :rolleyes:

    There are approx. 3000 temp contract teachers teaching in our schools. The asti believe that approx.800 have been redundant since last yr. (ASTI- casual/temp/part time teachers page) Do you suggest that the 3000 of us should just jump ship and go on the dole? I'm not budging, didn't work this hard at the job to just leave


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    #566
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    DanSolo wrote: »
    They wouldn't have to if taxes were increased instead.

    Taxes don't really need to be increased so much as widened. Both PS reductions and tax increases are probably required, though.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #567
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    rebel10 wrote: »
    There are approx. 3000 temp contract teachers teaching in our schools. The asti believe that approx.800 have been redundant since last yr. (ASTI- casual/temp/part time teachers page) Do you suggest that the 3000 of us should just jump ship and go on the dole? I'm not budging, didn't work this hard at the job to just leave

    What are you suggesting other unemployed workers do?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #568
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I don't think we're really in a position where public servants can say they'll take a cut "if so-and-so does" - and if so-and-so isn't being paid by the government the argument isn't even relevant.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Yes we are in the position to say that. Why wouldn't we? The reason we are striking is because others aren't being hit the way the public sector are, i mean top earners. Ya they haven't been paid by the gov, but they have been minded well enough by them


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    #569
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    What are you suggesting other unemployed workers do?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    No, please don't suggest that i am, all i am saying is that would it be of any benefit to anyone if we did all join the Q. Please read the other threads relating to this, someone asked me if we should just walk out as there won't be any temp contracts next year. Can i suggest that you stop and read before you go on the attack?


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    #570
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Yes we are in the position to say that. Why wouldn't we? The reason we are striking is because others aren't being hit the way the public sector are, i mean top earners. Ya they haven't been paid by the gov, but they have been minded well enough by them

    There are certainly cosseted areas of Irish 'business' life, but I didn't ask whether you felt you were in a position to say it - I said we're not in a position where we can afford for you to say it. That will remain the case whether the government backs down in the face of strike action or not.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #571
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    rebel10 wrote: »
    No, please don't suggest that i am, all i am saying is that would it be of any benefit to anyone if we did all join the Q. Please read the other threads relating to this, someone asked me if we should just walk out as there won't be any temp contracts next year. Can i suggest that you stop and read before you go on the attack?

    I'm not on the attack - I was asking a question. I appreciate fully your skills would be of no particular value if you have to get a job in McDonalds, or emigrate - but neither are those of anyone else.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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