Schools to close on 24th November

K-9

DanSolo wrote: »

They wouldn't have to if taxes were increased instead.

Taxes have been increased.

The new tax rates will be 22% standard rate, 43% over 35k, 45% over 75k and 47% over 150k. The Health levy has been doubled from 2 to 4% meaning the rates are 2/26/47/49/51%.

We need unemployment and spending to settle before embarking on more increases.

So in case you haven't noticed, taxes have increased and Revenues have gone down. Ideally we could just bring ourselves up to European standards in the space of less than 2 years, but realistically we can't. It needs to be managed over time and most economists agree with this.

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think we're really in a position where public servants can say they'll take a cut "if so-and-so does" - and if so-and-so isn't being paid by the government the argument isn't even relevant.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Of course if everybody in the Private Sector takes cuts, tax revenues go down automatically. The same tax revenues we need to sustain the PS. In the rush to see everybody take pay cuts we seem to have forgotten what that actually will do to the economy.

rebel10 wrote: »

There are approx. 3000 temp contract teachers teaching in our schools. The asti believe that approx.800 have been redundant since last yr. (ASTI- casual/temp/part time teachers page) Do you suggest that the 3000 of us should just jump ship and go on the dole? I'm not budging, didn't work this hard at the job to just leave

Ah, you really aren't getting my point. If anything, you seem to be taking the complete opposite from it. I'd suggest taking a little time and stop thinking about your own position and thinking about the over all picture. The overall picture may benefit you in the long run.

Scofflaw

K-9 wrote:

Of course if everybody in the Private Sector takes cuts, tax revenues go down automatically. The same tax revenues we need to sustain the PS. In the rush to see everybody take pay cuts we seem to have forgotten what that actually will do to the economy.

Presumably the plan is that everyone else takes pay cuts first, and when that's done, you go on strike to oppose your own, whatever may have happened to the tax revenues that pay you.

Ridiculous as that sounds, it's what's happening, of course.

amused,
Scofflaw

MikeC101

rebel10 wrote: »

There are approx. 3000 temp contract teachers teaching in our schools. The asti believe that approx.800 have been redundant since last yr. (ASTI- casual/temp/part time teachers page) Do you suggest that the 3000 of us should just jump ship and go on the dole? I'm not budging, didn't work this hard at the job to just leave

Surely, if permanent teachers pay isn't cut, and redundancies are out, the people hit are going to be those 3000 temporary contract teachers, who simply won't have their contracts renewed?

Badboy1977

murphaph wrote: »

Post reported. I don't respond to sh!te like this.

Dont be so sensitive..just wondering why you keep popping up on threads about teachers. You wouldn't last long in a classroom with a thin skin. You also have a tendency to be pedantic about grammar on an internet site,rather than dealing with substantive points. Plus calling a anonymous(idiotic) stranger a colleague of mine is acceptable(?) but querying why you constantly stalk teaching threads related is not? Anyway-what's wrong with therapy? We all could use it!

NewDubliner

Scofflaw wrote: »

Presumably the plan is that everyone else takes pay cuts first, and when that's done, you go on strike to oppose your own,

All of the public sector has already taken a pay cut.

Badboy1977

murphaph wrote: »

Yup, union subscriptions are tax deductible so the non-union taxpayer subsidises union subs indirectly.

How do you figure that? You just pay less by tax write off. The tax payer does not give money to you. You just pick and pick over every little detail. No matter how small.

implausible

K-9 wrote: »

That wasn't a teachers union, it was the head of the Principal Officers Union, people on between 60 and 100k.

Phew, that makes far more sense than it being one of the teaching union leaders. Why do people post here when they don't even know what they were watching on the news?!

K-9 wrote: »

Redundancies? Haven't heard that, any links?

Are you seriously unaware of the impact of cutting funding and the pupil-teacher ratio? Redundancies are only one effect, subjects being lost in schools are another, as well as having several levels of the one subject in one class and less resource hours available.

K-9

NewDubliner wrote: »

All of the public sector has already taken a pay cut.

And if all the Private Sector takes a cut, what happens tax revenue? The Revenues that the PS rely on.

If all the Public Sector sector takes pay cuts what happens tax revenue AND Govt. spending?

implausible

Badboy1977 wrote: »

How do you figure that? You just pay less by tax write off. The tax payer does not give money to you.

We do, we subsidise his bins!

TIPPO

I am a primary school teacher and to be honest we have no other option but to stand up for our rights on Nov 24th.Our strike is not a blue flu so i am losing a days pay so i don;t feel under any compliment to anyone.We supported the Irish ferry workers in Dublin 2 years ago and last year we marched with parents against terrible gov. cuts on the children of this country.The media have done a super job of turning private vs public sectors which is very disappointing for us.
My brother is an accountant/financialadvisor and earns 30k more then me a year..sure he may loose his job but then again he has been in the same job for the past 7 years..i have never been jealous of the difference in wages..it was my decision to become a teacher and have to wait 25 years to get to the top of the pay scale in my job..we both got the same points in the leaving cert and i think this is a very important fact..our Irish teachers are from the top 10% of the leaving cert results...basically we have some of the best graduates in the country ..doing the most important job in the country..and noone can ever accuse us of going into teaching for the money;;
People need to vent their anger at the government and not the teachers ,Gardai and nurses..they have thrown 54 billion to bail out the builders and now want 7% off us after taking about 7% off us already..i;m still paying 65 euro to my local Doctor and 5.50 for a pint in Dublin city centre so this craic of inflation being down dosen;t wash with me;;
We are not just fighting to keep our wages..we are fighting for low pupil/teacher ratios for the kids..for the free book scheme to be reintroduced..for English lang. teachers for newcomer children..for investment in Art,sports and I.t in schools..for proper school buildings so that your children are not in dark and cold prefabs..lets work together and invest in Irelands future-our youth

K-9

Badboy1977 wrote: »

How do you figure that? You just pay less by tax write off. The tax payer does not give money to you. You just pick and pick over every little detail. No matter how small.

It's a tax break. It costs because it results in less taxes collected.

Its a tax break, same as tax breaks for the wealthy, same as giving tax relief on 20k Mortgage Interest Relief was a tax break. There seems to be a perception that tax breaks for builders, hotels, stud farms etc. are bad but tax relief for FTB's, pensions or Union subs is grand. That needs to be sorted.

deemark wrote: »

Phew, that makes far more sense than it being one of the teaching union leaders. Why do people post here when they don't even know what they were watching on the news?!



Are you seriously unaware of the impact of cutting funding and the pupil-teacher ratio? Redundancies are only one effect, subjects being lost in schools are another, as well as having several levels of the one subject in one class and less resource hours available.

Yeah, felt it was important to add as the thread would veer of based on that.

Not unaware at all. We are all products of far higher pupil teacher ratios and we all managed.

Are you aware of the impact if we leave education alone?

Education and Health are the biggest spenders, mostly on pay.

It's tough, but it's hardly life threatening. Are you aware that no cuts in pay means a worse education system and less operations in hospitals?

K-9

deemark wrote: »

We do, we subsidise his bins!

YEP, it should go too.

Everybody should get the same pension tax relief too. Thing is teachers will end up paying more of a pension levy!

K-9

TIPPO wrote: »

We are not just fighting to keep our wages..we are fighting for low pupil/teacher ratios for the kids..for the free book scheme to be reintroduced..for English lang. teachers for newcomer children..for investment in Art,sports and I.t in schools..for proper school buildings so that your children are not in dark and cold prefabs..lets work together and invest in Irelands future-our youth

Yes you are fighting to keep your wages and thus increase pupil teacher ratio. Anything else is reaching for the emotional strings.

DanSolo

K-9 wrote: »

Education and Health are the biggest spenders, mostly on pay.

And why wouldn't they mostly be on pay?

Scofflaw

We are not just fighting to keep our wages..we are fighting for low pupil/teacher ratios for the kids..for the free book scheme to be reintroduced..for English lang. teachers for newcomer children..for investment in Art,sports and I.t in schools..for proper school buildings so that your children are not in dark and cold prefabs..lets work together and invest in Irelands future-our youth

You can't realistically fight for both, since the cuts have to go somewhere - unless of course you manage to displace the cuts entirely away from education, in which case it would be more honest to say that you're also fighting for longer hospital waiting lists, patients in dark and cold prefabs, reduction of A&E services and so on.

Somehow I doubt that slogan will be making an appearance later this month.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ditchhurler

#15 wrote: »

I'm a teacher, completely against this strike. Its ridiculous, I'm ashamed of the idiots who voted to strike.

Unfortunately you only have recourse to an anonymous bulletin board to air your views... media in Ireland are not following up on those teachers who don't want to strike. For example virtually no mention of the TURNOUT for the ballots. TUI 77% in favour for example , but what you'll not have seen is that the turnout was only 70% when the ballot boxes are in the schools!!) I think that there is a very significant minority of teachers who are cowed by the more aggressive actions of the militants, many of whom are protecting the less performing members of their profession.

Scofflaw

DanSolo wrote: »

And why wouldn't they mostly be on pay?

It doesn't really matter - but if pay is where most of the money is spent, pay is where most of the cuts will be made.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

DanSolo wrote: »

And why wouldn't they mostly be on pay?

Don't know, seems high to have 77% on pay and 23% on oil, computers and costs involved in just ensuring the schools they work in remain open at a reasonable level.. Any examples of why it should be that high, from other countries?

Stark

TIPPO wrote:

People need to vent their anger at the government and not the teachers ,Gardai and nurses..they have thrown 54 billion to bail out the builders and now want 7% off us after taking about 7% off us already..i;m still paying 65 euro to my local Doctor and 5.50 for a pint in Dublin city centre so this craic of inflation being down dosen;t wash with me;;

The ECB (not the Irish government) is putting up the capital for NAMA, which is not a bailout for the builders. Builders are still going bust and their loans simply move to NAMA instead of the banks. NAMA is to get money flowing in the economy as well so people can start making money to pay your wages.

We are borrowing €500 million a week to pay your wages regardless of anything else we're doing to try and kickstart the economy again. You take NAMA and bank recapitalisations out of the equation and we're still borrowing that amount.

And if you're still paying €5.50 for a pint in Dublin then more fool you. Not to mention that paying over the odds for a pint is your problem and no-one else's.

TIPPO wrote:

We are not just fighting to keep our wages..we are fighting for low pupil/teacher ratios for the kids..for the free book scheme to be reintroduced..for English lang. teachers for newcomer children..for investment in Art,sports and I.t in schools..for proper school buildings so that your children are not in dark and cold prefabs..lets work together and invest in Irelands future-our youth

Somehow I don't believe you. You guys never voted for those things when the money was there.

DanSolo

ditchhurler wrote: »

I think that there is a very significant minority of teachers who are cowed by the more aggressive actions of the militants, many of whom are protecting the less performing members of their profession.

That's like the silent polka-loving majority in Good Morning Vietnam. Don't pretend to know their motivations. All you know is the wording what they voted for.

ditchhurler

DanSolo wrote: »

That's like the silent polka-loving majority in Good Morning Vietnam. Don't pretend to know their motivations. All you know is the wording what they voted for.

Ah yes, perhaps you can respond then to the teacher posting on a different thread - """I'm a TUI member and voted in the recent ballot. Imagine my surprise when I heard that my vote had been interpreted as 'I want to go on strike next week'. The ballot I filled in stated that if X, Y and Z happened (compulsory redundancies, paycuts or a change in conditions of service), then we would take industrial action, up to and including, strike action. None of these things have happened, wtf?

Can anyone from ASTI, INTO or even my own union enlighten me?""

K-9

DanSolo wrote: »

That's like the silent polka-loving majority in Good Morning Vietnam. Don't pretend to know their motivations. All you know is the wording what they voted for.

Any examples of countries with 77% of education expenditure on pay having good education systems?

rebel10

K-9 wrote: »

Any examples of countries with 77% of education expenditure on pay having good education systems?

Please tell me you are not suggesting we don't

Scofflaw

rebel10 wrote: »

Please tell me you are not suggesting we don't

No, he's asking whether that figure is comparable with other countries with comparable education systems.

Personally, I'd say it's not an unreasonable figure, given that 65% of government spending overall is wages, and there's a very definite limit to the extent you can save on manpower in teaching - particularly given that the pupil:teacher ratio has been used as the main indicator of government commitment to education.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

rebel10 wrote: »

Please tell me you are not suggesting we don't

Can you answer the direct question first?

K-9

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, he's asking whether that figure is comparable with other countries with comparable education systems.

Personally, I'd say it's not an unreasonable figure, given that 65% of government spending overall is wages, and there's a very definite limit to the extent you can save on manpower in teaching - particularly given that the pupil:teacher ratio has been used as the main indicator of government commitment to education.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I suppose you could argue over how has the decrease in the pupil teacher ratio benefited our system, but we'd probably be here all night. Personally, I think the increase in SNA's was more beneficial as that section was largely ignored.

DanSolo

K-9 wrote: »

Any examples of countries with 77% of education expenditure on pay having good education systems?

Yes. Ireland.

sonic.trip

DanSolo wrote: »

Union heads are paid from Union dues. They are private sector.
I didn't expect you to know that.

well I wouldn't be suprised if their wages were paid by the taxpayer, like everything else you's get you's wasters. great life with your 4-5 months holidays, wake up to the real world and step outside your shell. . .

K-9

DanSolo wrote: »

Yes. Ireland.

Any others to benchmark against or are you going to continue avoiding answers to direct questions?

sonic.trip

TIPPO wrote: »

I am a primary school teacher and to be honest we have no other option but to stand up for our rights on Nov 24th.Our strike is not a blue flu so i am losing a days pay so i don;t feel under any compliment to anyone.

awwwwww, god bless you losing a days pay, you should be lucky to have a job, remember their are thousands if not millions of people out their that do not get any sick pay if they don't work, get a substandard pension, do not get 4-5 months holidays a year PAID, some possibly work in the cold and have already taken wage cuts.

And then their is you and the rest striking cause you don't want a pay increase, will you all wake up and step outside of this bubble you lot are living in. . .