Schools to close on 24th November

Dannyboy83

I see DCU have said no to strike action.

Does this cause the pro-strike group to reconsider their position?

TIPPO

I am a taxpayer too so i can;t see your point..we don;t get 4/5 months off..you should get your fact from somewhere more reliable the the Joe Duffy show..We have already given up benchmarking increases and an average of 7% in recent cuts so i don;t know why you keep saying we are looking for increases..we are just looking to keep what we have left...we have an extremely stressful and high pressure job so i don;t apologise to anyone for getting some extra days...you are probably the same person whos see nothing wrong with paying soccer players 100k a week..i;d like to see Robbie Keane teaching long division to a class of 35 11year olds....
Taking money off us is not going to create jobs...fact;..it takes a lot of extra money out of circulation which means more jobs are lost..in Australia the Gov..gave everyone $1000 to spend ..as long as they put it back in the economy;;thats the sort of foward thinking we need..not cut cut cut..
p.s..if teaching is such a great gig...why are you not one???Dick whittington went to London to pick the gold off the streets;;why not you??

murphaph

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Dont be so sensitive..just wondering why you keep popping up on threads about teachers.

We're not in your classroom now Sir, where you can tell us all to be "quiet down the back" lol. "keep popping up"? I have been a member here for a long time, I'd say less than 1% of my posts are about teachers! ALL your posts seem to be about them.

Badboy1977 wrote: »

You wouldn't last long in a classroom with a thin skin.

Luckily I don't have one, but nor do I have a desire to be in a classroom full of sweating 13 year olds who haven't yet discovered lynx, or a class of sweating 14 year olds who have! Eurrgh. That's a joke, btw, not an invitation to strike over terrible working conditions!

Badboy1977 wrote: »

You also have a tendency to be pedantic about grammar on an internet site,rather than dealing with substantive points.

I highlighted your shoddy punctuation (got a bad memory have we?) in response to the unsolicited private message that you sent me in which you were attempting to be condescending with the phrase "I don't think I used too big words". I don't pick on people's punctuation unless they infer that my own grasp of English is in some way inferior to theirs, which is what you did. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. At all times I have been dealing with substantive points. It is you who are going around sending private messages to me and others.

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Plus calling a anonymous(idiotic) stranger a colleague of mine is acceptable(?) but querying why you constantly stalk teaching threads related is not?

He's a teacher on a teacher forum. You're a teacher on an internet forum. He IS a colleague of yours whether you like it or not. "Stalking" lol, get a grip. It's a thread about teachers walking out on the kids on the 24th to (in the main) line their own pockets at everyone else's expense-I still pay tax in Ireland so I have an opinion and you know something, the teacher's should have kept their heads down because the general public had no idea that teacher salaries went so high, but now they do!

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Anyway-what's wrong with therapy? We all could use it!

I'm ok thanks. I have work to do.

Stark

TIPPO wrote:

I am a taxpayer too so i can;t see your point..we don;t get 4/5 months off..you should get your fact from somewhere more reliable the the Joe Duffy show..We have already given up benchmarking increases and an average of 7% in recent cuts so i don;t know why you keep saying we are looking for increases..we are just looking to keep what we have left...we have an extremely stressful and high pressure job so i don;t apologise to anyone for getting some extra days...you are probably the same person whos see nothing wrong with paying soccer players 100k a week..i;d like to see Robbie Keane teaching long division to a class of 35 11year olds....
Taking money off us is not going to create jobs...fact;..it takes a lot of extra money out of circulation which means more jobs are lost..in Australia the Gov..gave everyone $1000 to spend ..as long as they put it back in the economy;;thats the sort of foward thinking we need..not cut cut cut..

You didn't give up benchmarking increases. The sector you're benchmarked against suffered a massive contraction so there are no increases to be given. Instead, you're fighting against benchmarking decreases. The Irish government doesn't borrow money to pay Robbie Keane's salary so I don't see how bringing him into the discussion is in any way relevant. Giving you even more money is not "forward thinking". How do you even guarantee that someone is going to spend money in the Irish economy and not simply use that $1000 for an extra foreign holiday?

TIPPO wrote:

p.s..if teaching is such a great gig...why are you not one???Dick whittington went to London to pick the gold off the streets;;why not you??

I won't even dignify that with a response.

Scofflaw

TIPPO wrote: »

I am a taxpayer too so i can;t see your point..we don;t get 4/5 months off..you should get your fact from somewhere more reliable the the Joe Duffy show..We have already given up benchmarking increases and an average of 7% in recent cuts so i don;t know why you keep saying we are looking for increases..we are just looking to keep what we have left...we have an extremely stressful and high pressure job so i don;t apologise to anyone for getting some extra days...you are probably the same person whos see nothing wrong with paying soccer players 100k a week..i;d like to see Robbie Keane teaching long division to a class of 35 11year olds....
Taking money off us is not going to create jobs...fact;..it takes a lot of extra money out of circulation which means more jobs are lost..in Australia the Gov..gave everyone $1000 to spend ..as long as they put it back in the economy;;thats the sort of foward thinking we need..not cut cut cut..
p.s..if teaching is such a great gig...why are you not one???Dick whittington went to London to pick the gold off the streets;;why not you??

Nobody is expecting "taking money off teachers" to create jobs - they are expecting it to reduce the public sector pay bill, which we cannot afford to pay.

Really, it's very simple arithmetic. Government expenditure, of which the public sector wage bill is about 65%, is larger than government income, and the government can't keep borrowing to make up the shortfall. Nor, beyond a certain point, can they simply keep loading more taxes onto the private sector, because the private sector is in recession, and loading more taxes onto a sinking economy has been shown time after time to reduce economic activity, not increase it.

That's it - all there is to it. Pay reduction for the civil service has to happen. You're not being 'scapegoated' or 'picked on' - your wages will have to be cut because your wage bill is part of government spending, and nobody else's is.

Exactly the same decisions are being replicated by every other employer across the country - if costs exceed income, then costs are being cut. People are being laid off, having their hours or pay rates reduced, temporary contracts aren't being renewed, suppliers are having their orders reduced, new projects and new work are being shelved, existing projects are being axed. All of that is now headed your way - and it doesn't matter how unfair you think it is, or even whether you're right that it is - the public sector bill has to be reduced. There aren't any other options on the table.

regards,
Scofflaw

gurramok

deemark wrote: »

The same way a 10% paycut affect ANYONE's outgoings in a big way, never mind the further 10% that's being proposed!

You don't know anything about my personal or professional circumstances, past or present, so less of the personal digs please. I was merely pointing out that a few years ago, young teachers and other public servants were finding it hard to get mortgages. The banks didn't want to know about us.

They are not personal digs, you brought your personal mortgage into this. Stop bringing your mortgage into the topic if you don't want it discussed. If you bring it in, we have a right to to bring you up on the specifics as they don't add up.

murphaph

Scofflaw wrote: »

Nobody is expecting "taking money off teachers" to create jobs - they are expecting it to reduce the public sector pay bill, which we cannot afford to pay.

Really, it's very simple arithmetic. Government expenditure, of which the public sector wage bill is about 65%, is larger than government income, and the government can't keep borrowing to make up the shortfall. Nor, beyond a certain point, can they simply keep loading more taxes onto the private sector, because the private sector is in recession, and loading more taxes onto a sinking economy has been shown time after time to reduce economic activity, not increase it.

That's it - all there is to it. Pay reduction for the civil service has to happen. You're not being 'scapegoated' or 'picked on' - your wages will have to be cut because your wage bill is part of government spending, and nobody else's is.

Exactly the same decisions are being replicated by every other employer across the country - if costs exceed income, then costs are being cut. People are being laid off, having their hours or pay rates reduced, temporary contracts aren't being renewed, suppliers are having their orders reduced, new projects and new work are being shelved, existing projects are being axed. All of that is now headed your way - and it doesn't matter how unfair you think it is, or even whether you're right that it is - the public sector bill has to be reduced. There aren't any other options on the table.

regards,
Scofflaw

In the old days the govt would have just devalued the Punt and given us all a pay cut even if our particular sector is doing well for the economy. Nowadays being in the Euro, that option is not there (thank God) and the REAL issues of costs in the Irish economy MUST be dealt with. The private sector is dealing with it through the measures listed above. The government must now deal with it's expenditure in a similar manner. There is no 'fudge' option available. Does anyone think FF would cut wages if they could at all avoid it? This is the party of benchmarking ffs, they bought votes with increased public sector pay, decentralisation etc. and now their chickens have come home to roost. Ireland needs this (sorry if that sounds ruthless to you unemployed folks out there) to get costs back down to a level where we can again compete with our European neighbours. The cost of living is falling and would fall even more rapidly if cuts were made to current govt expenditure.

sonic.trip

TIPPO wrote: »

We have already given up benchmarking increases and an average of 7% in recent cuts

You mean cuts to your pension or the same levy everyone else in Ireland has to pay, have you made a 7% cut in your hourly rate??

TIPPO wrote: »

we have an extremely stressful and high pressure job so i don;t apologise to anyone for getting some extra days...

don't make me laugh, you lot wouldn't know what stress is. . and do you mean extra months off,, not days. . .

TIPPO wrote: »

you are probably the same person whos see nothing wrong with paying soccer players 100k a week..i;d like to see Robbie Keane teaching long division to a class of 35 11year olds....

what has robbie keane and teaching got in common? absolutely nothing, an english club pays his wages

TIPPO wrote: »

in Australia the Gov..gave everyone $1000 to spend ..as long as they put it back in the economy;;thats the sort of foward thinking we need..not cut cut cut..

see this is your mentality again, you WANT MORE MONEY, do you not read the paper and watch the news?? we simply cannot sustain paying you lot, we need to make these cuts now or else we get even more deeper into debt. we are borrowing 400 million a week, most people have made cuts to their wages, I even agree with cutting social welfare by 5 euro because we have to, do you not get it EVERYONE needs to make cuts we cannot sustain it...

We won't be relying on you lot to save the econmy anyway if your plan is "ah sure we will just give everyone more money"....GET REAL

DanSolo

sonic.trip wrote: »

well I wouldn't be suprised if their wages were paid by the taxpayer, like everything else you's get you's wasters. great life with your 4-5 months holidays, wake up to the real world and step outside your shell. . .

Do you always prefer guesswork over evidence? I'm not a teacher.
I've already said this FFS.

DanSolo

K-9 wrote: »

Any others to benchmark against or are you going to continue avoiding answers to direct questions?

If it's your issue that we get bad value for money then I think it's up to you to provide the evidence, yes?

Stark

DanSolo wrote: »

If it's your issue that we get bad value for money then I think it's up to you to provide the evidence, yes?

You're the ones who are refusing to go to work because you think you shouldn't be asked to take a pay cut, so you're the ones who need to justify your position.

DanSolo

Stark wrote: »

I won't even dignify that with a response.

Convenient.

Darragh29

DanSolo wrote: »

It may be an utter disgrace or not, but you have no evidence that this is connected with poor teaching standards, so teachers themselves have no reason to feel disgraced.

It's the teachers job to teach. If 20% of students are failing an important subject like maths, then there is clearly a problem with the teaching ability. You can blame the students all you want, we are all well used to teachers pointing fingers at everyone but themselves for poor standards, including parents, students and the government.

The fact is that no full time permanant teacher has ever been dismissed from their post for failing to do their core job. I remember some absolutely useless teachers, I can remember some violent teachers, I can even remember a few teachers who were alcoholics, but the system protected them and they remained in their positions.

As a teacher, you are entitled to take 30 uncertfiied sick days a year, the whole thing stinks to the high heavens, there are two problems here:

(1) You are overpaid, this needs to be addressed immediately with something in the order of a 20% paycut.

(2) You are accountable to nobody for results, this needs to change, unions need to be faced down and teachers that are not getting results need to be mentored back up to a standard that is acceptable and if that doesn't work, then a P45.

I'd also argue that if you can achieve better results from students, you equally should be given a bonus, there should be a "reward for results" culture brought into the system, but as for getting paid 40K plus for questionable results, we need to take a chainsaw to this mentality.

DanSolo

Stark wrote: »

You're the ones who are refusing to go to work because you think you shouldn't be asked to take a pay cut, so you're the ones who need to justify your position.

Third time lucky maybe? I'M NOT A TEACHER.
No, I would think all jobs have to be considered OK unless YOU can prove they are bad value for money. Or would you like to be fired while accounts do an audit on your productivity?
I see innocent until proven guilty isn't a policy of yours.

K-9

Stark wrote: »

How do you even guarantee that someone is going to spend money in the Irish economy and not simply use that $1000 for an extra foreign holiday?

In fairness, it'll just be spent in Newry.

DanSolo

Darragh29 wrote: »

It's the teachers job to teach. If 20% of students are failing an important subject like maths, then there is clearly a problem with the teaching ability.

Since your 20% has already been shown to be wrong, all your follow ons are invalid.

Darragh29 wrote: »

You... You... you

4th time maybe then. I'm not a teacher.
Please stop guessing what I do just because I don't agree with you.

Darragh29

As for the teachers who claim that they are seeking to protect the pupil teacher ratio, next Tuesday, the pupil:teacher ratio will be: All primary and secondary schoolchildren in Ireland: Teachers Zero...

Work that one out if you can...

Darragh29

DanSolo wrote: »

4th time maybe then. I'm not a teacher.
Please stop guessing what I do just because I don't agree with you.

Whatever, on some level, you're up there with them...

K-9

DanSolo wrote: »

If it's your issue that we get bad value for money then I think it's up to you to provide the evidence, yes?

Nope, you have been asked for examples of other countries that spend 77% of their education budget on wages to see if it's normal. You can't provide the answer.

It's a simple question which you are giving a "just because" answer too.

Ogham

Originally Posted by K-9 View Post
Any examples of countries with 77% of education expenditure on pay having good education systems?

DanSolo wrote: »

Yes. Ireland.

It's not that good....

The recent OECD report on Ireland said the following about Education in Ireland

"the percentage of the entire education budget spent on teachers’ pay at primary, secondary and third level – some 75 per cent – is well above average among developed states."

It also comments on the myth of the excellent education system here...

"Ireland is close to international norms in terms of educational attainment for the resources committed. Overall, the education outcomes at secondary level are, it points out, good relative to the OECD average, but not as good as in the best performing countries. Performance in maths and science is, it says, below that of other high-income states."

Figures here show that in Science - Ireland came 19th - behind the Uk , Finland, NZ, China, Canada, holland, Slovenia, Germany,Estomia Belgium, Austria to name a few.

Apart from all these facts - the idea of any union calling a strike before any cuts have been announced is ridiculous.

DanSolo

Darragh29 wrote: »

Whatever, on some level, you're up there with them...

Your bluster does little to hide your embarrassment.

Stark

DanSolo wrote: »

Third time lucky maybe? I'M NOT A TEACHER.
No, I would think all jobs have to be considered OK unless YOU can prove they are bad value for money. Or would you like to be fired while accounts do an audit on your productivity?
I see innocent until proven guilty isn't a policy of yours.

The Government and everyone bar half the public sector have already decided that the public sector represents bad value for money and we've all seen the reports that show this to be the case. So far, no-one has been able to put forward a counter-argument to say that it's not the case (other than "but we want it!" of course).

Darragh29

DanSolo wrote: »

Your bluster does little to hide your embarrassment.

I'm not the slightest bit embarrassed... Obviously you are married to one, you were previously one or have a few in the family or something along those lines...

Your career doesn't interest me, only your opinion...

DanSolo

K-9 wrote: »

Nope, you have been asked for examples of other countries that spend 77% of their education budget on wages to see if it's normal. You can't provide the answer.

It's a simple question which you are giving a "just because" answer too.

And you can't provide the answer either (to your own question) so you can't say whether the current situation should change. Maybe other countries spend more so we should up Irish teacher's wages?
With no evidence either way we should just leave it alone then.

DanSolo

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm not the slightest bit embarrassed... Obviously you are married to one, you were previously one or have a few in the family or something along those lines...

Your career doesn't interest me, only your opinion...

And your personal attacks do even less to hide the ass whipping you're getting on the facts.

Stark

DanSolo wrote: »

And you can't provide the answer either (to your own question) so you can't say whether the current situation should change. Maybe other countries spend more so we should up Irish teacher's wages?

That's the answer to everything isn't it, "more wages"? Ireland's teachers get paid more than teachers anywhere else in the world. So no, further upping the wages of Irish teachers is not the answer. Sorry.

DanSolo

Stark wrote: »

The Government and everyone bar half the public sector have already decided that the public sector represents bad value for money and we've all seen the reports that show this to be the case. So far, no-one has been able to put forward a counter-argument to say that it's not the case (other than "but we want it!" of course).

Decided is one thing. Proven is another. I've seen no evidence that they are bad value for money as no-one has presented such.

DanSolo

Stark wrote: »

That's the answer to everything isn't it, "more wages"? Ireland's teachers get paid more than teachers anywhere else in the world. So no, further upping the wages of Irish teachers is not the answer. Sorry.

Wow, major sarcasm bypass. You really think I was suggesting that? In fact I was doing the opposite: asking for no change in absence of evidence.

Ogham

K-9 wrote: »

Nope, you have been asked for examples of other countries that spend 77% of their education budget on wages to see if it's normal. You can't provide the answer.

It's a simple question which you are giving a "just because" answer too.

This OECD link gives some figures on salary expenditure as percentage of total education spend (2006)
http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/664447618002
There are some 11 countries spending a higher percentage on salaries than Ireland (Portugal, Mexico, Belgium, Chile, Italy, Poland, Turkey and a few others)
Interesting that not very many of these countries appeared in the top performers list in Science ( http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/664076271473)

herya

DanSolo wrote: »

And your personal attacks do even less to hide the ass whipping you're getting on the facts.

Ass whipping? Sounds just like a retired teacher You've provided nothing even close to facts in this thread.