Schools to close on 24th November

Badboy1977

murphaph wrote: »

That wasn't really the point I was making dee. I was highlighting that there are some tossers in the teaching profession who clearly want to disrupt lessons, rather than simply withdraw their labour (which is what a strike is meant to be).

Btw, I can see and understand the frustration that you and other (relatively) young, temporary contract teachers feel. I wish we could dispense with the old guard and bring MORE young teachers into PERMANENT employment.

I believe that you also see 60k+ as being excessive remuneration for a teacher and know that we could have more teachers and world class facilities if we could somehow ditch the union ring leaders (who in reality don't give a stuff about junior teachers or those not in similar circumstances to themselves).

I have learned a lot from this thread in this regard. I didn't realise that such a 2 tier hierarchy existed in our schools and it's disgusting tbh. I accept that a degree of experience is essential in any school but one you've been a teacher for say 3 or 4 years I'm sure you're well able to teach your stuff and handle the class and if you're not, then you probably never will be. I had some great young teachers in school, my form teacher was relatively newly qualified and was passionate and better than ALL the older teachers at explaining his stuff, mainly because he seemed to like it himself and it rubbed off on us. I had a couple of older teachers who were equally as passionate of course, but age didn't automatically mean better teaching, at least in my school.

These older teachers and union stalwarts are in my opinion holding back the progression of younger, passionate teachers and it's a bloody crying shame actually. I also understand the pressure being exerted by these old farts on younger teachers and would imagine sitting in a staff room where you're outnumbered 4:1 could be horrible, especially when this issue is being discussed.

I think 35-40k should be where a teacher's salary is at, with small increments for inflation and all teachers should be on that. Sh!t teachers should be removed, not just paid less.

Its great the way you take one opinion and decide that its representative of an entire profession.I also find your use of the word "Tosser" to be offensive and the words "old farts" to be ageist. It really is quite a clichéd and hackneyed opinion to classify people as non progressive once they reach a certain age. You have obviously no involvement in teaching or Unions since you left school. Im actively involved in the ASTI and you never see these young progressive teachers come to the ASTI Education conference(which deals elusively with education) or branch meetings. We formed a committee in our school to look at streaming-none of the young teachers bothered their arse to join.

The ASTI is democratic-you could be on the CEC in a year or two by only attending a couple of meetings. But while many young teachers work hard the vast majority are not interested in bigger issues-in my experience.

Please dont make sweeping,ill-informed posts that are simply based on the rants of a few disaffected teachers. You cant even be sure they are teachers.

redmca

Sticking to the thread subject, one has to ask an obvious question:
Who does it affect?

Their employer? I don't think so. They (presumably) will save 1 day's pay costs.

The obvious answer is the students and their parents. I don't suppose the teachers would consider striking during July or August !!
If the purpose of the strike was to in some way to campaign for more funds for education as a whole, perhaps the teachers would have more support. However it is solely for narrow selfish reasons. Not only that but their pay and conditions have not changed in the last 6 months, so why strike now?? To scare Brian Lenihan??? ..... dream on
What an example to give to our school children !!

murphaph

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Its great the way you take one opinion and decide that its representative of an entire profession.I also find your use of the word "Tosser" to be offensive and the words "old farts" to be ageist. It really is quite a clichéd and hackneyed opinion to classify people as non progressive once they reach a certain age. You have obviously no involvement in teaching or Unions since you left school. Im actively involved in the ASTI and you never see these young progressive teachers come to the ASTI Education conference(which deals elusively with education) or branch meetings. We formed a committee in our school to look at streaming-none of the young teachers bothered their arse to join.

The ASTI is democratic-you could be on the CEC in a year or two by only attending a couple of meetings. But while many young teachers work hard the vast majority are not interested in bigger issues-in my experience.

Please dont make sweeping,ill-informed posts that are simply based on the rants of a few disaffected teachers. You cant even be sure they are teachers.

True, just as I can't be sure you are! You want to be taken at face value as a teacher and I do, just as I take them at face value. If someone feels the need to impersonate a teacher on an internet forum, then they have deep issues that I can't help them resolve.

rebel10

redmca wrote: »

The obvious answer is the students and their parents. I don't suppose the teachers would consider striking during July or August !!
If the purpose of the strike was to in some way to campaign for more funds for education as a whole, perhaps the teachers would have more support. However it is solely for narrow selfish reasons. Not only that but their pay and conditions have not changed in the last 6 months, so why strike now?? To scare Brian Lenihan??? ..... dream on
What an example to give to our school children !!

Ok, the reason we are striking now is because of next months budget, not a budget in August but in December. Pay and conditions have changed for many, many teachers which has been said in so many threads, so covering old ground here. Those who have permanent contracts, pay has been deducted, for new teachers, (secondary) 3000 of us we have seen 800 job losses in the last year, so to tell me our pay and conditions have not changed is wrong. 6 months ago was late May, early June, are you telling me that all those teaching then are all in the same position right now, no. I think, personally, the name calling, ageism, sexism, ignorance etc. coming from those who are against this one day strike on Tuesday, is a far worse example to be giving to our kids, the only person on this thread, for the strikes, that has reduced themselves to name calling is not a teacher. I am proud to say that i am in a profession that does not reduce itself to that kind of example.

rebel10

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Its great the way you take one opinion and decide that its representative of an entire profession.I also find your use of the word "Tosser" to be offensive and the words "old farts" to be ageist. It really is quite a clichéd and hackneyed opinion to classify people as non progressive once they reach a certain age. You have obviously no involvement in teaching or Unions since you left school. Im actively involved in the ASTI and you never see these young progressive teachers come to the ASTI Education conference(which deals elusively with education) or branch meetings. We formed a committee in our school to look at streaming-none of the young teachers bothered their arse to join.

The ASTI is democratic-you could be on the CEC in a year or two by only attending a couple of meetings. But while many young teachers work hard the vast majority are not interested in bigger issues-in my experience.

Please dont make sweeping,ill-informed posts that are simply based on the rants of a few disaffected teachers. You cant even be sure they are teachers.

I am a young teacher, you can believe me or not. I am horrified that nothing has been said to those that have chosen to reduce themselves and their use of the English language to a level that is as you put it "ageist" and just vulgar. Unfortunately the powers that be don't see this as an open discussion and as of yet have not reminded people that this thread can be debated in an adult and civil manner, rather than just reminding people about personalising issues. To be honest, I completely dispute your view of young teachers involvement in the union. Not that it has anything to do with this thread. The ASTI have personally, shown me very little support in the past, my hours were reduced due to a reduction in curricular concessions. Bernard Moynihan was apparently employed to safeguard teachers like me, which i pay him to do. I rang him 7 times in February, leaving messages for him to contact me to arrange an emergency meeting for teachers reliant on these hrs. sent him 3 emails, which by the way i have sent to the president, all of which were ignored.Now i was told by a member of his staff, that he was very busy and would only respond to emails, still hasn't happened. If he is too busy to deal with the likes of the young teachers, for whom he is employed, then i am sorry, but why should i be wasting my precious time driving 40 kms to my branch meeting?

murphaph

rebel10 wrote: »

Ok, the reason we are striking now is because of next months budget, not a budget in August but in December.

Nothing has been announced. The budget has not been published yet!

rebel10 wrote: »

Pay and conditions have changed for many, many teachers which has been said in so many threads, so covering old ground here.

As have pay and conditions for many others-it's a serious recession we're in!

rebel10 wrote: »

Those who have permanent contracts, pay has been deducted, for new teachers, (secondary) 3000 of us we have seen 800 job losses in the last year, so to tell me our pay and conditions have not changed is wrong.

The staff who have not got permanent contracts are just contractors, like any contractors they can be let go when their contracts run out. Sorry, but because so many older teachers suck up all the money the dept. won't be giving out too many permanent contracts for the foreseeable future.

rebel10 wrote: »

6 months ago was late May, early June, are you telling me that all those teaching then are all in the same position right now, no. I think, personally, the name calling, ageism, sexism, ignorance etc. coming from those who are against this one day strike on Tuesday, is a far worse example to be giving to our kids, the only person on this thread, for the strikes, that has reduced themselves to name calling is not a teacher. I am proud to say that i am in a profession that does not reduce itself to that kind of example.

Your colleague Badboy1977 told me I needed therapy which is just as bad as name calling.

rebel10

murphaph wrote: »

Nothing has been announced. The budget has not been published yet!
As have pay and conditions for many others-it's a serious recession we're in!
The staff who have not got permanent contracts are just contractors, like any contractors they can be let go when their contracts run out. Sorry, but because so many older teachers suck up all the money the dept. won't be giving out too many permanent contracts for the foreseeable future.
Your colleague Badboy1977 told me I needed therapy which is just as bad as name calling.

Are you serious, so we don't need to worry about the budget in your opinion? Understand its a recession, but once again, highlighting to someone that we have actually taken cuts. A person who is contacted to work and whos contract expires, and does not get re-employed is unemployed=job loss.
Look one person making a stupid remark about you personally is bad, and obviously should not be accepted, but my point being that people have come on here and called us names that are highly offensive, not only to teachers but also students. Referring to us as "twats" etc. on an adult forum is not ok, referring to my students as "dumb" i think is ignorant, disgusting and shows the level people will stoop. nothing has been said to them. An open debate? I think not.

Stark

You've taken a small pay cut. And you don't even know if teachers on temporary contracts will be hit until the budget is published.

rebel10

Stark wrote: »

You've taken a small pay cut. And you don't even know if teachers on temporary contracts will be hit until the budget is published.

No i have actually taken a large cut, my concessionary hours were cut due to cutbacks, so have lost alot of my original pay, which was low in the scale. Many teachers are in my position, not everyone is on 60k with a permanent job. We can't risk taking an even bigger hit when our jobs were insecure to begin with. Its a joke at this stage to assume temp teachers won't take the impacts of the budget, which has been well established by many on this thread already, if they can't remove permanently contracted teachers, who will they i wonder? So many talks would not have taken place between the unions and government if it were not such a serious situation for us.

gurramok

I still think lowly paid contract teachers have a case of anger about cutbacks, all 3000 of you. But that is the nature of contracting, you sign up for that contract and can be let go at any time. Ye shouldn't be involved in this strike at all.

Its the permo ones who refuse a paycut on their average 60k wage a year and the ones who are striking who are right leeches on the system. They are the ones you should be angry with.

Stark

I wonder which ones the unions are out to protect?

rebel10

gurramok wrote: »

I still think lowly paid contract teachers have a case of anger about cutbacks, all 3000 of you. But that is the nature of contracting, you sign up for that contract and can be let go at any time. Ye shouldn't be involved in this strike at all.

Its the permo ones who refuse a paycut on their average 60k wage a year and the ones who are striking who are right leeches on the system. They are the ones you should be angry with.

Thanks:) Still though we are refusing to take a paycut too, we should be involved. looking at my wages, I don't know how i will get through the year, but sure at this moment so are so many thousands. Just want people to realise that it isin't that i don't have compassion for so many people who have lost their jobs, i do, but just don't assume we are all safe.

rebel10

Stark wrote: »

I wonder which ones the unions are out to protect?

Yup! Hopefully i can be convinced otherwise though.

K-9

rebel10 wrote: »

Funny, cause people sharing their views on this thread believe students with Sna's are the "dumbed down" individuals in our school. Personally, as someone who is qualified, i believe it is beneficial, but do you know the rate of pay given to a SNA?

I suppose they wonder about the 20% odd failure rate. How you relate that in some way to kids with learning difficulties, reflects more on how defensive you are about this topic.

SNA's I think start at about 25k. I don't think they end up with 60k after 10 or so years.

K-9

rebel10 wrote: »

Those who have permanent contracts, pay has been deducted, for new teachers, (secondary) 3000 of us we have seen 800 job losses in the last year, so to tell me our pay and conditions have not changed is wrong.

The pay and conditions haven't changed for temporary teachers, barring the pension levy which is about 3/4% after tax relief. They are still temporary. All that has changed is the money isn't there to renew the contract or to get another one somewhere else. Unfortunately recessions do that, especially if people on 60/70k don't want to take pay cuts.

Scofflaw

gurramok wrote: »

I still think lowly paid contract teachers have a case of anger about cutbacks, all 3000 of you. But that is the nature of contracting, you sign up for that contract and can be let go at any time. Ye shouldn't be involved in this strike at all.

Its the permo ones who refuse a paycut on their average 60k wage a year and the ones who are striking who are right leeches on the system. They are the ones you should be angry with.

Is this the wrong time to suggest that people spare a thought for contractors? Or are they universally condemned?

cordially,
Scofflaw

gurramok

Scofflaw wrote: »

Is this the wrong time to suggest that people spare a thought for contractors? Or are they universally condemned?

cordially,
Scofflaw

No, they are not to be condemned. Its what they sign up for, when things go bad they are usually the first to be hit. In IT, they get very good wages on contract compared to a full timer.
Even 2 contractors in my company(IT) were let go in the last week and yes I do feel for them. They get no redundancy.
Contracting is part of risk taking, if you take a 2 yr contract, you have to be realistic, cautious, prudent and think, will it be renewed in 2 yrs time?

Scofflaw

gurramok wrote: »

No, they are not to be condemned. Its what they sign up for, when things go bad they are usually the first to be hit. In IT, they get very good wages on contract compared to a full timer.
Even 2 contractors in my company(IT) were let go in the last week and yes I do feel for them. They get no redundancy.
Contracting is part of risk taking, if you take a 2 yr contract, you have to be realistic, cautious, prudent and think, will it be renewed in 2 yrs time?

Are you sure? Are we not entitled to complain bitterly, and require our (non-existent) union to ballot us for a strike? Surely the very fact that there was a requirement for contractors means that, even though we're temporary, there should continue to be the same numbers of contractors employed, and at the same rates? Why should we suffer just because money's tight?

cordially,
Scofflaw

NewDubliner

Scofflaw wrote: »

Surely the very fact that there was a requirement for contractors means that, even though we're temporary, there should continue to be the same numbers of contractors employed, and at the same rates? Why should we suffer just because money's tight?

In IT, contractors are taken on to build new projects and then hand them over to the permanent staff for maintenance/operation. The trend with IT contractors in the public service is to make the projects extremely complex and difficult to maintain while piling on enhancements, so that it becomes very difficult to do without the contractors.

Head The Wall

NewDubliner wrote: »

In IT, contractors are taken on to build new projects and then hand them over to the permanent staff for maintenance/operation. The trend with IT contractors in the public service is to make the projects extremely complex and difficult to maintain while piling on enhancements, so that it becomes very difficult to do without the contractors.

I thought the most highlly qualified and paid people were in the public sector. Why do they allow this happen if thats the case.

No private sector company would allow any IT contractor away with the likes of that. Costs are set and they must be rigidly adhered to.

In the public sector budget control doesn't exist.

The Muppet

I find it funny that the Private sector have a notion that the Public sector need to keep them on their side, where have ye been for the last few months?

Fair play to the teachers for going out and standing up for themselves.

Gurgle

Tipp Man wrote: »

there are 25 levels on a secondary teachers salary scale, so i think its a good assumption to say that levels 12-13 would be the average teacher especially as there are a lot of teachers countrywide.

That's not how the salary scales work.
Get the numbers of teachers on each point of the scale, then re-do your calculations.

So to be fair I think that westtip is actually a little conservative when he says 60k, and thats without including principals and vice principals

Principles and vice principles are not teachers, they're management.

From the TUI website:

Teachers who are:

2 year trained start on point 1 of the incremental scale
3 year trained start on point 2 of the incremental scale
4 year trained start on point 3 of the incremental scale

Teachers Common Basic Scale

1 €32,599
2 €33,754
3 €34,907
4 €36,068
5 €37,865
6 €39,028
7 €40,194
8 €43,123
9 €44,586
10 €46,336
11 €48,077
12 €49,830
13 €51,297
14 €53,238
15 €53,238
16 €53,238
17 €55,916
18 €55,916

If I had done a H.Dip instead of an M.Eng and gone into secondary teaching, I would now be earning €2k less on my gross salary, I'd be paying a 9% pension levy and I wouldn't have VHI cover for the whole family.

Thats comparing like with like.

gurramok

Scofflaw wrote: »

Are you sure? Are we not entitled to complain bitterly, and require our (non-existent) union to ballot us for a strike? Surely the very fact that there was a requirement for contractors means that, even though we're temporary, there should continue to be the same numbers of contractors employed, and at the same rates? Why should we suffer just because money's tight?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes, ye(assuming you are one ) have hardly any rights as a contractor. (MNC IT view here, not PS).
The only time contractors are kept is when they are valuable, non-replaceable and when the company has a hiring freeze for permanent employees. What I've seen is that the company must maintain their employment in those circumstances to maintain service to the customer.

If I had a choice myself, I would not take up a contract position, it just ain't worth the stress despite the better money.

On the topic, the contract teachers have every right to be bitter and angry at mismanagement by their employer(govt) which brings to the issue why on earth would they strike in support of much better paid permanent colleagues.

Dannyboy83

gurramok wrote: »

On the topic, the contract teachers have every right to be bitter and angry at mismanagement by their employer(govt) which brings to the issue why on earth would they strike in support of much better paid permanent colleagues.

That, my friend, is the €19.3 Billion Euro question.

rebel10

K-9 wrote: »

I suppose they wonder about the 20% odd failure rate. How you relate that in some way to kids with learning difficulties, reflects more on how defensive you are about this topic.

SNA's I think start at about 25k. I don't think they end up with 60k after 10 or so years.

No read the thread where the person referred to the students with learning difficulties as "dumbed down." Please don't assume i being defensive over the "20%" failure rate which has been actually proved as 8%, i don't teach maths so as far as i am concerned i am not accountable. As long as my subject has good results, i know i am doing my job, thanks. Well i can tell you that one SNA is earning 50 eur less than me a week, so you can draw your own conclusion from that.

rebel10

gurramok wrote: »

.
On the topic, the contract teachers have every right to be bitter and angry at mismanagement by their employer(govt) which brings to the issue why on earth would they strike in support of much better paid permanent colleagues.

Once again, not striking for a permanent teacher, striking for my own situation, which i am fully entitled to do.

jimmmy

The Muppet wrote: »

Fair play to the teachers for going out and standing up for themselves.

Irish teachers are among the highest paid in the world, their hours worked very low, their pension very generous etc etc and yet they cannot see that the economy is f*****d, most others are in a worse position and they want to strike to make things even worse ?

Tipp Man

Gurgle wrote: »

That's not how the salary scales work.
Get the numbers of teachers on each point of the scale, then re-do your calculations.

Principles and vice principles are not teachers, they're management.

From the TUI website:


If I had done a H.Dip instead of an M.Eng and gone into secondary teaching, I would now be earning €2k less on my gross salary, I'd be paying a 9% pension levy and I wouldn't have VHI cover for the whole family.

Thats comparing like with like.

First off this isn't the thread to be discussing this but you seem to be doubting me so i will continue.

Secondly thats exactly how the salary scales work, you move up a position on the scale each year, now I took 13 as the mid point as it is fair to assume that given the large number of teachers in this country that you will have alot under 13 but a lot over 13 (probably even more as there are a lot of teacher with 25+ experience) so it is perfectly reasonable to assume 13 as an average.

Thirdly a lot teachers start on point 3 in the scale. So people who were in my class in school (i'm 31) are on level 11 on the scale, I even had this clarified to me by my best friend only this weekend. So even by the age of 35 teachers can expect to be at point 13 in the scale, now are you trying to tell me there are significantly more teachers under 35 in this country to significantly distort my workings?? In fact i have been conservative in my workings

Fourthly I already said that i didn't include any principals - vice principals in my workings

Fifthly if you had done a Hdip instead of a M.Eng you would have 5 months of the year as holiday and have lots of opportunity to make up the extra 2k (study supervision, exam supervision/correction) you say you would earn less (have you included the extra 5,177 that you would get as a teacher with a Masters and which i did not include above), coupled with a guaranteed pension of 50% of your final salary and a lump sum of 150% of final salary, and only have 22 contact hours for the weeks you do work, so don't give me any of this like for like bull

Regretting your career choice??

Darragh29

rebel10 wrote: »

No read the thread where the person referred to the students with learning difficulties as "dumbed down." Please don't assume i being defensive over the "20%" failure rate which has been actually proved as 8%, i don't teach maths so as far as i am concerned i am not accountable. As long as my subject has good results, i know i am doing my job, thanks. Well i can tell you that one SNA is earning 50 eur less than me a week, so you can draw your own conclusion from that.

I made the remark "dumbed down", and I made it because someone on the thread who said that the reason that 20% of students who sat the Leaving Cert in 2008, that failed to secure a pass award in the ordinary level paper, did so because there are now many more special needs students in mainstream education. Basically someone here tried to draw a relationship between 20% of students who failed to pass an ordinary level maths paper and the number of special needs students now in mainstream education...

I'm fully convinced that teachers are inherently lazy as a body of workers, they are a protected workforce that are accountable to no person or entity. They are not responsible for any results, as far as I'm aware, not a single teacher has ever been dismissed from a permanant full time teaching post for failing to do their core job.

Someone here tried to suggest to me on this thread that the reason 20% of LC students in 2008 failed to pass maths at ordinary level is because of the number of special needs students in mainstream education. I don't accept this, I think 20% of students are failing to pass maths at what is considered to be the ordinary level, because teachers are not doing their job, however I'm well aware of the tendancy of the teaching community to blame anyone and everyone besides themselves for poor academic results, for example, society, students, parents, the government, etc...

I've no problem with a teacher being able to earn 60K or even much more, but only on the basis of results being achieved, and when I say results, I mean student academic results...

REBEL, PLEASE OBSERVE THE FACTS, 20% OF STUDENTS THAT SAT THE LEAVING CERT IN 2008, FAILED TO SECURE A PASS AWARD AT ORDINARY LEVEL MATHS....

YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE LINK TWICE NOW AND THE FACTS ARE BEYOND DISPUTE...

Tipp Man

jimmmy wrote: »

Irish teachers are among the highest paid in the world, their hours worked very low, their pension very generous etc etc and yet they cannot see that the economy is f*****d, most others are in a worse position and they want to strike to make things even worse ?

Teachers are robbing this country blind and yet people still come out and support them, its unbelievable

Teachers are getting paid way too much for such a tiny amount of work, 5 months holidays, 22hrs teaching contact, how on earth can anyone possibly justify their salaries