Schools to close on 24th November

Darragh29

Tipp Man wrote: »

Teachers are robbing this country blind and yet people still come out and support them, its unbelievable

Teachers are getting paid way too much for such a tiny amount of work, 5 months holidays, 22hrs teaching contact, how on earth can anyone possibly justify their salaries

Like every mistake this government has made, once it's given, it's extremely hard to take it back...

Tipp Man

Darragh29 wrote: »

Like every mistake this government has made, once it's given, it's extremely hard to take it back...

Especially against such a unionised and militant group as the teachers

Darragh29

Tipp Man wrote: »

Especially against such a unionised and militant group as the teachers

This is what the core problem is in Ireland now and it's been festering for a number of years... We have the minority of workers in Ireland in highly unionised jobs, where change is obstructed and opposed at every single opportunity in order to extract more money from the state, and on the other hand we have the majority of workers in non-unionised jobs, who have no "benchmarking", no representation at government level, they just go to work and do what is required of them and they get on with it.

This is what I think we need to deal with now, the sheer imbalance of what is going on, all those people who have no representation, somehow or another, they need to be brought into the system so that the system restores some sense of balance between all workers in the state...

K-9

rebel10 wrote: »

No read the thread where the person referred to the students with learning difficulties as "dumbed down." Please don't assume i being defensive over the "20%" failure rate which has been actually proved as 8%, i don't teach maths so as far as i am concerned i am not accountable. As long as my subject has good results, i know i am doing my job, thanks. Well i can tell you that one SNA is earning 50 eur less than me a week, so you can draw your own conclusion from that.

Well, if you are lowered paid than permanent workers and not subject to the same pay scales, that is an issue for your union. Saying one SNA gets €50 a week less than you doesn't mean a lot. Depends on their level of experience, qualifications, tax bracket etc.

From looking at the link, 5,803 took the Foundation level, 272 failed Honours and 4,404 failed Pass.

That's 10,479 out of 50,116. It's about 21%.

murphaph

Darragh29 wrote: »

This is what the core problem is in Ireland now and it's been festering for a number of years... We have the minority of workers in Ireland in highly unionised jobs, where change is obstructed and opposed at every single opportunity in order to extract more money from the state, and on the other hand we have the majority of workers in non-unionised jobs, who have no "benchmarking", no representation at government level, they just go to work and do what is required of them and they get on with it.

This is what I think we need to deal with now, the sheer imbalance of what is going on, all those people who have no representation, somehow or another, they need to be brought into the system so that the system restores some sense of balance between all workers in the state...

This cuts to the core of what stinks and has stunk in Ireland for many years now. It's time the ordinary 'worker bee' in the private sector took back his power. If FF think for one second that they can win another election by facing down the unions, Thatcher style, then that's what they'll do and (eurrgh, it pains me to say this) if FG don't support them in the necessary cuts i'll be left with no option but to reelect FF! Labour are out of the question for me. What a dismal prospect-let's hope FG can set their stall out and win my vote. I REALLY don't want to be in the position where another FF government seems the least worst option.

Darragh29

murphaph wrote: »

This cuts to the core of what stinks and has stunk in Ireland for many years now. It's time the ordinary 'worker bee' in the private sector took back his power. If FF think for one second that they can win another election by facing down the unions, Thatcher style, then that's what they'll do and (eurrgh, it pains me to say this) if FG don't support them in the necessary cuts i'll be left with no option but to reelect FF! Labour are out of the question for me. What a dismal prospect-let's hope FG can set their stall out and win my vote. I REALLY don't want to be in the position where another FF government seems the least worst option.

What is needed I think is something completely new and fresh. All we are doing when looking at FF, FG and Labour, is going around in circles, while becoming increasingly frustrated at what we are seeing...

I think Irish people need to start being the change that they want to see in the world. There is plenty of politically uncontaminated talent and ability in Ireland, there plenty of people who will put the country before their own self interests and who will work hard to make our country a decent place to live again where people have a quality of life and we are not all in total and utter despair.

rebel10

K-9 wrote: »

The pay and conditions haven't changed for temporary teachers, barring the pension levy which is about 3/4% after tax relief. They are still temporary. All that has changed is the money isn't there to renew the contract or to get another one somewhere else. Unfortunately recessions do that, especially if people on 60/70k don't want to take pay cuts.

Once again wrong. Look having many of my hours made up of concessionary ones, which were cut, i have had my pay and conditions changed

rebel10

Darragh29 wrote: »

REBEL, PLEASE OBSERVE THE FACTS, 20% OF STUDENTS THAT SAT THE LEAVING CERT IN 2008, FAILED TO SECURE A PASS AWARD AT ORDINARY LEVEL MATHS....

YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE LINK TWICE NOW AND THE FACTS ARE BEYOND DISPUTE...

And you have also been given a link showing the results of 8% and not 20%. Why bother?

rebel10

Tipp Man wrote: »

Teachers are robbing this country blind and yet people still come out and support them, its unbelievable

Teachers are getting paid way too much for such a tiny amount of work, 5 months holidays, 22hrs teaching contact, how on earth can anyone possibly justify their salaries

5 months holidays?

Scofflaw

rebel10 wrote: »

5 months holidays?

I presume he means 3 months in the summer, and a month each for the other two holidays. More accurately, that's simply the time schools are closed, and I imagine doesn't reflect the working year of the teachers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

rainbowtrout

Scofflaw wrote: »

I presume he means 3 months in the summer, and a month each for the other two holidays. More accurately, that's simply the time schools are closed, and I imagine doesn't reflect the working year of the teachers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

For the record, 3 months in the summer, 2 weeks at christmas, 2 weeks at easter and 1 week for each of the midterms.

rebel10

Scofflaw wrote: »

I presume he means 3 months in the summer, and a month each for the other two holidays. More accurately, that's simply the time schools are closed, and I imagine doesn't reflect the working year of the teachers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A month each for what other holidays? We finish school on June 1st, we start back on the 24th of Aug, we have mid term for two weeks and also for easter & xmas.Not 5 months, sorry.

rainbowtrout

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well I'd argue that you haven't tried hard enough to work with him with a view to encouraging him that his better interests lie in applying himself and getting a decent leaving cert.

Tell me, when you did you H. Dip, were you not trained how to work with students to overcome these kind of difficulties???

Please don't sicken me with a comment like that. I work my a*se off every day to engage my students and my subject is popular. This student has wanted to leave school since he finished his junior cert, his parents won't let him. He's trying to get thrown out at the moment. Hence the assault on me. But of course, it's my fault for not trying to engage him. Overcoming difficulties with students is one thing, but every now and again you will have a student that will not engage in anyway shape or form and in my case assault you.

Are you seriously suggesting that if a student is disengaged that it's ok for them to thrown missiles at a teacher?

No one dealing with the public would take that abuse from a customer, why should it be any different in a classroom?:mad:

Fratton Fred

the education budget would save a fortune if they stopped paying TDs who are teachers, or at least stopped paying into their bonuses.

28 current TDs are enjoying full Teacher's pension contributions, plus whatever it is they will pick up for being a TD.

implausible

K-9 wrote: »

From looking at the link, 5,803 took the Foundation level, 272 failed Honours and 4,404 failed Pass.
That's 10,479 out of 50,116. It's about 21%.

Guys, I'm failing to see the relevance of people failing OL maths. The cohort of students is far more varied than in the past, more students are staying on to do the Leaving Cert and the curriculum has been changed at primary school. The biggest problem with OL Maths is that students often point-blank refuse to do the Foundation Level paper against the best advice of their teacher.

Yes, sometimes bad results reflect the teaching ability of the teacher, but to say that more people failing backs up the stereotype that all teachers are lazy is ridiculous. There seems to be a lot of bad educational experiences in the past reflected in this thread and this is informing posters' present negativity (and in some cases hatred) towards our profession.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the education budget would save a fortune if they stopped paying TDs who are teachers, or at least stopped paying into their bonuses.
28 current TDs are enjoying full Teacher's pension contributions, plus whatever it is they will pick up for being a TD.

Hear, hear! Not only are the TDs getting paid on the double, but a teacher replacing someone on this type of leave more or less cannot get permanency out of it.

Scofflaw

rebel10 wrote: »

A month each for what other holidays? We finish school on June 1st, we start back on the 24th of Aug, we have mid term for two weeks and also for easter & xmas.Not 5 months, sorry.

I didn't say it was correct, only that that was where he was getting the 5 months figure from. Also, holidays seem to vary from school to school - I know my daughter's school finishes in late May and starts in early September. Mind you, they tell me they're not going on strike on the 24th, so presumably they have a different arrangement.

I notice that you're not really correcting the impression of very long holidays, though - what you've given above comes to four and a quarter months, which from the point of view of people who get 2 weeks per year is as near 5 months as makes no difference.

By the way, this is from Citizens' Information:

Every school must be open for tuition for a minimum of 183 days at primary level and 167 days at post-primary level. Schools can use any remaining days at their discretion to extend the summer holiday period or to close on religious or other holidays.

167 days out of 365 leaves 198 days schools need not be open, which is 6.6 months, roughly. That's a figure at quite large variance with the one you're giving.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Darragh29

rebel10 wrote: »

And you have also been given a link showing the results of 8% and not 20%. Why bother?

I hope your not teaching maths... 20% of students did not secure a pass in the ordinary level maths papers last year. Foundation maths is not worth jack sh*t to any student that wants to study science or engineering in 3rd level.

I've already done the maths for you on this in an earlier post and the numbers don't lie.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Please don't sicken me with a comment like that. I work my a*se off every day to engage my students and my subject is popular. This student has wanted to leave school since he finished his junior cert, his parents won't let him. He's trying to get thrown out at the moment. Hence the assault on me. But of course, it's my fault for not trying to engage him. Overcoming difficulties with students is one thing, but every now and again you will have a student that will not engage in anyway shape or form and in my case assault you.

Are you seriously suggesting that if a student is disengaged that it's ok for them to thrown missiles at a teacher?

No one dealing with the public would take that abuse from a customer, why should it be any different in a classroom?:mad:

I don't accept that it is impossible to motivate any person. It's just a matter of technique and identifying what rationality they are signed up to that leads them to conclude that having no decent standard of education is a positive thing. I'm not saying this is your fault, obviously you're not a social worker, but you should be able to be trained in certain aspects of that job if that is what is required for you to do your job.

I remember disruptive students in classses in school, funnily enough, they only became disruptive students in front of certain teachers. Other teachers kept them in check and there was no issue...

murphaph

Darragh29 wrote: »

I remember disruptive students in classses in school, funnily enough, they only became disruptive students in front of certain teachers. Other teachers kept them in check and there was no issue...

True. Had the same loudmouths in my class all trough secondary. Not a peep put of them in front of teachers with the ability to control the class, and that included a couple of young teachers who wouldn't take their nonsense and we all had a better education for it. The weak teachers who can't control these students are really not cut out for teaching-it is after all not just about reading stuff from a book.

maxximus

with all due respect to the previous two posters , you have no idea what you are talking about.

Darragh29

maxximus wrote: »

with all due respect to the previous two posters , you have no idea what you are talking about.

Rubbish. We can all remember the students with the big mouths and like all bullies, they have a skill at identifying the weak. If you assert yourself in the classroom and keep students in check, then you'll be able to keep a bit of order about the place and get the job done.

It isn't rocket science, no matter how you guys try to complicate it, it is an easy thing to do. Maybe a few months in a private sector job might knock some of the sheer laziness and the "no can do" attitude out of you...

maxximus

Darragh29 wrote: »

Rubbish. We can all remember the students with the big mouths and like all bullies, they have a skill at identifying the weak. If you assert yourself in the classroom and keep students in check, then you'll be able to keep a bit of order about the place and get the job done.

It isn't rocket science, no matter how you guys try to complicate it, it is an easy thing to do. Maybe a few months in a private sector job might knock some of the sheer laziness and the "no can do" attitude out of you...

well , with 4 years training , as the ad says , " it could be you " !

Im sick of lads spouting c rap about the classroom , give it a go if you think you are hard enough , how could you profess to be a critic on todays everchanging classroom environment.

Also scofflaw or whatever you are called , if my previous post is deserving of a private warning from your moderating drunk on power self , its deserving of the wider audience on here to view how pathetic you are .

beeno67

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that if a student is disengaged that it's ok for them to thrown missiles at a teacher?

No one dealing with the public would take that abuse from a customer, why should it be any different in a classroom?:mad:

I was assaulted by a teacher when I was in school. I still have the physical scars. Bugger all happened teacher.

Scofflaw

maxximus wrote: »

well , with 4 years training , as the ad says , " it could be you " !

Im sick of lads spouting c rap about the classroom , give it a go if you think you are hard enough , how could you profess to be a critic on todays everchanging classroom environment.

Also scofflaw or whatever you are called , if my previous post is deserving of a private warning from your moderating drunk on power self , its deserving of the wider audience on here to view how pathetic you are .

Take two weeks off posting here - and read the Forum Charter in your spare time. It applies to you as well as every other poster.

moderately,
Scofflaw

beeno67

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the education budget would save a fortune if they stopped paying TDs who are teachers, or at least stopped paying into their bonuses.

28 current TDs are enjoying full Teacher's pension contributions, plus whatever it is they will pick up for being a TD.

A far better system would be for TDs pensions to be the same as other public service pensions. ie payable at age 65 at a maximum of 50% of salary after 40 years service

Tipp Man

Scofflaw wrote: »

I presume he means 3 months in the summer, and a month each for the other two holidays. More accurately, that's simply the time schools are closed, and I imagine doesn't reflect the working year of the teachers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

rebel10 wrote: »

A month each for what other holidays? We finish school on June 1st, we start back on the 24th of Aug, we have mid term for two weeks and also for easter & xmas.Not 5 months, sorry.

Rebel are you seriously trying to justify the secondary school holidays?? Can you tell me exactly how many school days there are per annum?? For instance there are schools which have a very long weekend on Dec 8th, so school is closed Monday and Tuesday

Scofflaw can you tell me exactly how many days teachers spend in schools when they are closed?? If you get above 2 your doing well (edit just seen your post above, thanks for the info)

rebel10

Tipp Man wrote: »

Rebel are you seriously trying to justify the secondary school holidays?? Can you tell me exactly how many school days there are per annum?? For instance there are schools which have a very long weekend on Dec 8th, so school is closed Monday and Tuesday

Scofflaw can you tell me exactly how many days teachers spend in schools when they are closed?? If you get above 2 your doing well (edit just seen your post above, thanks for the info)

Why would i be trying to justify my school holidays, do i ask for 4 months off? They are given to me, sorry but i am not paid for my hols so would be more than happy to work those months. We don't get december 8th off. You can't close a school whenever you feel like, if the dept rang then the school would be in serious trouble. If schools are closing on monday 7th, which wouldn't be many, then they have either worked an extra day in hand or are going to close the school later this year. Listen you seem to be obsessing over our holidays, if it is such an issue for you then please suggest what recommendations you would make, as i said nobody is stopping you from becoming a teacher is the holidays appeal to you that much.
Can i ask, if schools are closed, how are teachers supposed to get in? Breaking and entering? Where is the logic?

rainbowtrout

Darragh29 wrote: »

I hope your not teaching maths... 20% of students did not secure a pass in the ordinary level maths papers last year. Foundation maths is not worth jack sh*t to any student that wants to study science or engineering in 3rd level.

I've already done the maths for you on this in an earlier post and the numbers don't lie.



I don't accept that it is impossible to motivate any person. It's just a matter of technique and identifying what rationality they are signed up to that leads them to conclude that having no decent standard of education is a positive thing. I'm not saying this is your fault, obviously you're not a social worker, but you should be able to be trained in certain aspects of that job if that is what is required for you to do your job.

I remember disruptive students in classses in school, funnily enough, they only became disruptive students in front of certain teachers. Other teachers kept them in check and there was no issue...

I hope you're not insinuating that I have disciplinary problems in my classroom. I run a tight ship. Maybe it's a hard concept to understand that some students just do not want to be there. They do not do any work in ANY class and are just waiting to get out of school and unfortunately for many of them, their main aim is to go on the dole because that's the culture they come from. Sometimes you will get through to some of them. I've heard plenty of commets over the years from students of the type 'I'm only here because my mother doesn't want to lose the childrens allowance/ I'm too young to leave/I'm don't want to go to school but if I leave my parents will make me work/ I'm only doing this subject because I didn't like any of the subjects on offer and this is the best of a bad lot'

Maybe you need to spend some time in a school and meet some of these students. The Leaving Cert as it is isn't perfect, it doesn't suit all students and there are other programs out there to accommodate students who would be better suited to an alternative form of education. However not all schools can afford to run those progrms or have the student or teacher numbers to do so.

Student discipline has also changed over the years. When I was a student you got out of the way of a teacher in the corridor, held the door open for them. Students today do not behave like that, many of them quite the opposite and if a teacher gives them some work as a disciplinary measure I've seen plenty of cases where the parents are in the next day saying their Mary or Johnny is not doing the work because they said so. Their child is not at fault. There is no parenting happening and no responsibility taken.

HollyB

Scofflaw wrote: »

167 days out of 365 leaves 198 days schools need not be open, which is 6.6 months, roughly. That's a figure at quite large variance with the one you're giving.

cordially,
Scofflaw

104 of those 198 days would be weekends, so schools are closed 94 weekdays a year, 1 day short of 19 weeks. Primary schools are closed for 182 days, less 104 weekend days, leaves 78 weekdays, or 15 weeks and 3 days. Still good holidays, at least for the summer - I imagine that things like correcting exams, filling out evaluations and planning for the coming term eat into Christmas and Easter holidays, and into the midterm breaks.

ardmacha

This forum is largely a fact free zone, and consequently discussion often goes around in circles.

While there is scope for discussion on the relative salaries of teachers compared to other professions, overall teaching hours are comparable with other countries and although high, teaching salaries are not the highest in the world. So if overall public sector salaries are the highest in the world, as some suggest, then this must arise elsewhere.

I twice posted this before

Scofflaw

HollyB wrote: »

104 of those 198 days would be weekends, so schools are closed 94 weekdays a year, 1 day short of 19 weeks. Primary schools are closed for 182 days, less 104 weekend days, leaves 78 weekdays, or 15 weeks and 3 days. Still good holidays, at least for the summer - I imagine that things like correcting exams, filling out evaluations and planning for the coming term eat into Christmas and Easter holidays, and into the midterm breaks.

I'd assume so. However, if we look at the table ardmacha has just posted, we see a figure of about 950 hours. Assuming 40-hours weeks as per most jobs, that's 23.75 weeks - compared to anything up to 50 weeks (2000 hours) for a lot of people.

Unless that's contact (teaching) hours?

For comparison, I used to run a training company, where I was also the principal trainer. Through 1998 to 2000, I usually did 10am - 5pm Mondays to Fridays, 6.30pm-9.30pm Mondays to Thursdays, and with the exception of 6 weeks in the year, 10am-5pm Saturdays as well - approximately a 2500 hour teaching year, and I have the invoices to prove it. On Sundays I maintained the computer network, wrote manuals, and marked projects, but that was unpaid.

cordially,
Scofflaw