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Schools to close on 24th November

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    #152
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    Katiex wrote: »
    You all should be ashamed of yourselves for saying such rubbish about teachers. Ignorance, that's all it is.
    Oh come OFF IT.
    Katiex wrote: »
    Last week my Mam's school had an overall evaluation
    Every heard of an audit? [Hint: Ask someone from the private sector]
    Katiex wrote: »
    and for over a month every single night she wrote note after note, she even spent her entire mid-term writing them, and stayed after school every day for about 3 hours.
    Primary school = 9am - 3pm day.
    3 hours after 3pm = 6pm.
    For what is effectively an audit, she got off pretty easy, believe me. Not having to stay until 9/10pm at night, and go in at weekends, for no extra pay.
    Katiex wrote: »
    The evaluation is over now, my Mam is still in school for an extra hour and a half doing corrections.
    So her working day is now 9am-4.30pm?
    Katiex wrote: »
    You give out about the holidays? You think the kids should be in school longer?
    No, the problem is that teachers give out about poor pay yet their average hourly rate is far above most in the private sector and way above European counterparts.
    Katiex wrote: »
    My family's income has been cut severely by the new budget, just like any other's, and my Dad is now unemployed.
    Yep, just like any other family.
    Katiex wrote: »
    You all may think teaching is a doss job, that they have all the time in the world to relax and do as they please, and get paid soooo much money for it, but what about when parents use the teacher as a babysitter, and leave their child in the classroom for up to an hour, every day?
    Never said teaching is a doss job now. No denying they get well paid for it though.
    Katiex wrote: »
    What about when every evening the teachers can't relax as they have so many corrections to do and lessons to plan.
    They have the most generous holidays in the state. Try working in the private sector sometime...
    Katiex wrote: »
    Ignorance, that's all it is.
    Yes indeed! Ignorance, as they say, is bliss... :rolleyes:


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    #153
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    OK, but why is that?
    Why did you not tackle it with your union!!??

    LOL, those were my words.IMO= in my opinion.

    Willieodenomics just means an argument which defies all logic.


    Loving the Willieodenomics! Ok, this may sound stupid and contradictary, but if you are in a staffroom with 35 teachers. 30 of those are permanent teachers, 5 non perm. The 30 teachers are explaining to you that we are going to lose evrything they worked so hard for over the last 30 yrs. Imagine saying well feck ye, i'm gonna go in and teach anyway, don't care what ye did for us to make our work conditions better. I am striking only for my own circumstances and other teachers in my position, and i will tell people that on the day, because it is unjust.
    Can i also just say that some of the teachers there are fantastic, not only are they passionate about their job and committed, but in many ways they are the only caring face that some kids see these days, which is really hard, because you develop a personal relationship with the kids to a degree, and certain issues that arise can often be harder than teaching itself. I hope in the future i will have as much dedication to the job. Sorry i know that was totally off the point, but realised i have been suggesting they all don't deserve the money they are on.:)


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    #154
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    This strike is an absolute disgrace. The private sector doesnt even know if they'll have a job in a week, a month, 6 months time, these numpties are getting cuts because we can no longer afford such salaries.

    Boohoo, working in the private sector and with this years tax increases + change of work conditions im down 16% this year so far. I wouldn't bloody strike, im lucky to be working so should these tossers.

    In fact if it were me in charge i would straight out randomly sack 100 teachers that day from those that go on strike, might give everyone a dose of might lose your job anytime soon.

    Time to bring out the reality stick.


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    #155
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Loving the Willieodenomics! Ok, this may sound stupid and contradictary, but if you are in a staffroom with 35 teachers. 30 of those are permanent teachers, 5 non perm. The 30 teachers are explaining to you that we are going to lose evrything they worked so hard for over the last 30 yrs. Imagine saying well feck ye, i'm gonna go in and teach anyway, don't care what ye did for us to make our work conditions better. I am striking only for my own circumstances and other teachers in my position, and i will tell people that on the day, because it is unjust.

    Ok, I commend you for your selflessness, can I just make one point here?

    If 30 are permanent, and 5 are temp.
    What do you believe will happen to the 5 temp workers, if the required pay cuts from the 30 are not met?


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    #156
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Loving the Willieodenomics! Ok, this may sound stupid and contradictary, but if you are in a staffroom with 35 teachers. 30 of those are permanent teachers, 5 non perm. The 30 teachers are explaining to you that we are going to lose evrything they worked so hard for over the last 30 yrs. Imagine saying well feck ye, i'm gonna go in and teach anyway, don't care what ye did for us to make our work conditions better. I am striking only for my own circumstances and other teachers in my position, and i will tell people that on the day, because it is unjust.

    what about people in the private sector,those working in factories and big international companies,we heard many stories on the news of people been there for 30 years,company closes up shop,the staff get their p45 and gone...


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    #157
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    Fred83 wrote: »
    what about people in the private sector,those working in factories and big international companies,we heard many stories on the news of people been there for 30 years,company closes up shop,the staff get their p45 and gone...
    obviously the same rules dont apply, this is teachers we're talking about!!!!!!!!


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    #158
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Ok, I commend you for your selflessness, can I just make one point here?

    If 30 are permanent, and 5 are temp.
    What do you believe will happen to the 5 temp workers, if the required pay cuts from the 30 are not met?

    Oh believe me i know! But what is the sensible option? Leaving now to join a dole q after 6 yrs of trying to establish yourself within the staff, with some being about 35 yrs older than you, and could possibly retire in the future, leaving a possible perm contract for you, depending on pupil/teacher ratio. Not gonna walk out unless i am told i no longer have a job in june.


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    #159
    vinylbomb
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭vinylbomb


    Just out of interest, was it a public ballot, or secret?

    Many teachers seem to be saying they are against striking, but if it was a secret ballot and 4 in 5 said yes to a strike then that tells rather a different story.


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    #160
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Fred83 wrote: »
    what about people in the private sector,those working in factories and big international companies,we heard many stories on the news of people been there for 30 years,company closes up shop,the staff get their p45 and gone...

    Once again, ya that is awful. I am not striking for the teachers there for 30 odd yrs, i am striking for myself and all the non permanent teachers who are gonna have to take these cuts because of all the reasons i have mentioned before, who are on a below average wage and are also facing job losses. Read the other threads


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    #161
    Matthew712
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭Matthew712


    Fred83 wrote: »
    what about people in the private sector,those working in factories and big international companies,we heard many stories on the news of people been there for 30 years,company closes up shop,the staff get their p45 and gone...

    They had it good in the good times?
    Many got large redundancy packages?
    They can claim unemployment benefit?
    They can't claim they are paying the wages of the public sector!
    If they were so good at their job, so flexible, so productive, why did their company close?


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    #162
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    Just out of interest, was it a public ballot, or secret?

    Many teachers seem to be saying they are against striking, but if it was a secret ballot and 4 in 5 said yes to a strike then that tells rather a different story.

    Every member was posted a ballot paper which they either ticked yes or no to strike. The ones that were returned was 4/5. Many teachers did not post theirs as they were neither yes or no. Wasn't a secret


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    #163
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Oh believe me i know! But what is the sensible option? Leaving now to join a dole q after 6 yrs of trying to establish yourself within the staff, with some being about 35 yrs older than you, and could possibly retire in the future, leaving a possible perm contract for you, depending on pupil/teacher ratio. Not gonna walk out unless i am told i no longer have a job in june.

    Well, the sensible option to me, and bear in mind I don't work as a teacher so this is just a private sector perspective, the sensible option to me is to:

    A) Find a union who do represent you and ensure all temp workers join it
    B) Try to support/enforce a change which will no longer make you an underpaid second class citizen within your own job
    C) Do not take a stance which entirely threatens your own job
    D) Assuming the actual cuts are enforced (this is a foregone conclusion), it is exponentially more realistic to assume that teachers will begin to retire IMMEDIATELY, thereby clearing the path to a permanent position for you! (as is now happening with the guards)

    Remember, these are not the only cuts.
    There will be further cuts and pension cuts - none of which should affect you on your payscale


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    #164
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    Matthew712 wrote: »
    They had it good in the good times?

    ive never experienced good times in the private sector its just start working on X amount, get smaller and smaller salary increments year on year, had several pay freezes in the past 11 years( probably 5 years of that was pay freezes IN THE CELTIC TIGER ), this good times crap of the private sector is a total myth, lawyers, private doctors, developers etc. made a lot of money, most who graduated before the celtic tiger got 0 benefit in the celtic tiger other than paying inlated prices for everything.
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    Many got large redundancy packages?
    some maybe, others got standard 2 weeks per yer service of whatever it is
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    They can claim unemployment benefit?
    Anyone can claim that if you jack in your job
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    They can't claim they are paying the wages of the public sector!
    Well i hardly think the public sector is profitable and paying for themselves .
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    If they were so good at their job, so flexible, so productive, why did their company close?
    youre kidding right?


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    #165
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    didnt get much of payoff,didnt dell give the workers feck all,infact didnt the gov had go to the e.u with the begging bowl to get something?.


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    #166
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    ive never experienced good times in the private sector its just start working on X amount, get smaller and smaller salary increments year on year, had several pay freezes in the past 11 years( probably 5 years of that was pay freezes IN THE CELTIC TIGER ), this good times crap of the private sector is a total myth, lawyers, private doctors, developers etc. made a lot of money, most who graduated before the celtic tiger got 0 benefit in the celtic tiger other than paying inlated prices for everything.

    QFT
    Let that be the end of that nonsensical debate.

    And before anyone says tax the lawyers, doctors, developers - most of that money was reinvested in banks/land/syndicates.........which are now worthless.


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    #167
    rebel10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭rebel10


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Well, the sensible option to me, and bear in mind I don't work as a teacher so this is just a private sector perspective, the sensible option to me is to:

    A) Find a union who do represent you and ensure all temp workers join it
    B) Try to support/enforce a change which will no longer make you an underpaid second class citizen within your own job
    C) Do not take a stance which entirely threatens your own job
    D) Assuming the actual cuts are enforced (this is a foregone conclusion), it is exponentially more realistic to assume that teachers will begin to retire IMMEDIATELY, thereby clearing the path to a permanent position for you! (as is now happening with the guards)

    Remember, these are not the only cuts.
    There will be further cuts and pension cuts - none of which should affect you on your payscale

    These are all great and i think that sometimes you have to stand back from your own circumstances and weigh up your options which i have not done til now. I am happy to just go with the flow, not draw attention to myself, as "trouble makers" don't do well in job interviews! You are entitled to permanency after 5 yrs, i do know of a teacher who after 17 yrs of teaching only got it last yr. You are dead right bout all the retirements and hopefully a more proactive workforce will take over!:)


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    #168
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Fred83 wrote: »
    didnt get much of payoff,didnt dell give the workers feck all,infact didnt the gov had go to the e.u with the begging bowl to get something?.

    In fact, several Polish people were telling me Solidarnosc were brought in to represent the Polish workers, as the government just gave up.

    (well, when I say gave up, I really mean they sent our 2 most embarrassingly inept politicians - willie 'mighty mouse' o'dea and mary 'einstein' coughlan on a government jet to Texas costing €164,000, so that Michael Dell could tell them to piss off!

    Couldn't they just give him a ring?:rolleyes:)


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    #169
    herya
    Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    rebel10 wrote: »
    Ok, not an economics teacher, but will try and figure this out. After 25 years of service a teacher is entitled to earn 60k p.a. Then, these teachers can take on posts of responsibility, i.e. year heads, media spokesperson, home/school liason officer, first aid officer, chaplaincy, list goes on. Generally in most schools, the teachers who are there longest will be favoured when applying for these posts. Now, these posts vary in their pay but it is avaliable on the asti website under "payscale". I am assuming, and God as i said, i am not an expert, these posts would possibly make up the extra figures. Also before i forget, teachers with a masters or any further qualifications also earn more than someone with an honours degree and H dip. alone. Then you also have your principals & deputy principals, who are obviously on a much higher wage. Not sure if that clears up some of the mystery, i myself find it a bit of a mystery.:)

    Thanks for this. I find it a mystery too tbh. If we assume that in every school there are some juniors who earn ca 30k salary there must be similar number of senior teachers who earn 80-90k (OK this is brutal simplification but then the 60k average must come from somewhere). This basically equals 120k pro rata (as they have 3-4 months off). I find it hard to believe that in every single school there are at least several staff who are earning this kind of money, plus the pension and job security.

    This is way senior management level in a private sector, very responsible and subject to constant assessments, yearly and quarterly targets etc. You won't have many people on such a salary in an SME (comparable in staff numbers) even if it's successful. I understand that principal's job is not easy but how many principals can one school have? Chaplaincy, first aid, media contact work facilitate this kind of money? The mind boggles...


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    #170
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    , I mightn't leave until 10pm and work Saturdays for free.

    Dude, you are not an employee, you are a slave.

    Empolyees get paid.

    Hopefully your master might throw you a free crumbs. Enjoy them, it's all you will get from them.


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    #171
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    Matthew712 wrote: »
    They had it good in the good times?
    The average worker in the private sector had it no better than the public sector.
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    Many got large redundancy packages?
    Yep, they did. Something pretty much non-existant in the public sector. I'm sure it could be benchmarked in though if anyone likes :rolleyes:
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    They can claim unemployment benefit?
    As can the public sector. :confused::confused::confused:
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    They can't claim they are paying the wages of the public sector!
    Private sector employee gets paid wages from the revenue of a private company. He/She in turn pays income tax which goes to the government. The company pays VAT, PRSI, corporation tax etc.

    A public sector employee gets paid wages from the government, whom gets the money from tax revenue. Yes, the public sector pays tax so a small amount ends up back in the government accounts, but ultimately the public sector is paid from tax revenue by the private sector.
    Matthew712 wrote: »
    If they were so good at their job, so flexible, so productive, why did their company close?
    What a silly statement to make! This is what the public sector can't seem to grasp. If the Irish Government was a business, it would have closed long ago. But it's the government after all, it can't "go out of business". And luckily for them, all the permanent public sector employees don't need to worry about whether their job will still even exist when they step back into work on Monday morning...


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    #172
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Dude, you are not an employee, you are a slave.

    Empolyees get paid.

    Hopefully your master might throw you a free crumbs. Enjoy them, it's all you will get from them.

    Thats not slavery, this is a normal fact of life for many workers throughout the private sector.

    This is precisely the point we are trying to convey to the teachers, who appear to live like princes, and feel they are entitled to.


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    #173
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Dude, you are not an employee, you are a slave.

    Empolyees get paid.

    Hopefully your master might throw you a free crumbs. Enjoy them, it's all you will get from them.
    its called work and anyone who values their job in the current climate will have no problem doing the same.


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    #174
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Kensington wrote: »
    And luckily for them, all the permanent public sector employees don't need to worry about whether their job will still even exist when they step back into work on Monday morning...

    Luckily indeed that the conditions you describe mean more of a necessity for government services.

    Or do you advocate that an increase in unemployment should necessitate a decrease in the numbers in unemployment offices?

    I'll give you fifteen minutes to work out the question, another fifteen to work out the answer.


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    #175
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    well,those in private sector in them factories etc,where giving up slices of their pay to just stay in job,i do feel sorry for the young teachers,they are been dictated by the older ones who take their sub work to top up their pensions..


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    #176
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    its called work and anyone who values their job in the current climate will have no problem doing the same.

    Work is for pay. If you want to work for free you have no right to complain when your employer gives it to you up your ass.

    Hope they lubed up.

    I work for pay, I feel no inferior.

    The cheek of me.


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    #177
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Luckily indeed that the conditions you describe mean more of a necessity for government services.

    Or do you advocate that an increase in unemployment should necessitate a decrease in the numbers in unemployment offices?

    I'll give you fifteen minutes to work out the question, another fifteen to work out the answer.
    Thats a stupid argument if i ever heard one, ok then fire all the current guys in the unemployment offices and put the newly unemployed former private sector workers in their place for half the pay, problem fixed and no necessity to decrease the numbers to take care of the unemployed.
    dresden8 wrote: »
    Work is for pay. If you want to work for free you have no right to complain when your employer gives it to you up your ass.

    Hope they lubed up.

    I work for pay, I feel no inferior.

    The cheek of me.
    its no wonder the country is in a state with that work to rule nonsense.
    We're lucky to have jobs and we'll do whatever it takes to keep them.
    I work for pay and to keep the company i work for profitable, not just to receive my money.


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    #178
    desmurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭desmurphy


    #15 wrote: »
    I'm a teacher, completely against this strike. Its ridiculous, I'm ashamed of the idiots who voted to strike.


    and when your pay is cut and your conditions of service have gone and you have the possibility of redundancy maybe then you might stand up for your profesion


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    #179
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    Thats a stupid argument if i ever heard one, ok then fire all the current guys in the unemployment offices and put the newly unemployed former private sector workers in their place for half the pay, problem fixed and no necessity to decrease the numbers to take care of the unemployed.

    im sure there are plently of skilled people on the dole who would jump to that chance and work for half ...


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    #180
    Matthew712
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭Matthew712


    Kensington wrote: »
    The average worker in the private sector had it no better than the public sector.

    Yep, they did. Something pretty much non-existant in the public sector. I'm sure it could be benchmarked in though if anyone likes :rolleyes:

    As can the public sector. :confused::confused::confused:

    Private sector employee gets paid wages from the revenue of a private company. He/She in turn pays income tax which goes to the government. The company pays VAT, PRSI, corporation tax etc.

    A public sector employee gets paid wages from the government, whom gets the money from tax revenue. Yes, the public sector pays tax so a small amount ends up back in the government accounts, but ultimately the public sector is paid from tax revenue by the private sector.


    Taking the cost of bailing the banks out, the total contribution of the private sector to the state last year is negative. Taking the social welfare payments into account (payments to unemployed private sector workers) for next year and the interest payments on the debts for bailing out the bank, the private sector will contribute nothing either next year. The private sector are not paying for the public sector.


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    #181
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    Thats a stupid argument if i ever heard one, ok then fire all the current guys in the unemployment offices and put the newly unemployed former private sector workers in their place for half the pay, problem fixed and no necessity to decrease the numbers to take care of the unemployed.

    Ok, ok, you win.

    I need my house painted. I'll pay you 20 cents per hour.

    That's much more than your multi-national corporation who expects you to work for free. I feel so generous. I wouldn't expect anyone to work for free.

    No sloppy sh1t though, I don't pay for second class work.

    PM me your CV. I don't hire any old skanger.


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