Schools to close on 24th November

lmimmfn

dresden8 wrote: »

I thought the public sector added nothing to the economy and were a drain on the productive sector.

You obviously haven't been on boards much recently.

its a symbiotic relationship, its obvious both are needed in society, arguing against that is pointless. However normally private sector is high risk/high gain with the public sector being slow incremental increases long term with job security etc. thats been thrown out the window, even if private/public sector salaries are completely equal then the public sector is still much much better deal.

The cost of the public sector must come down only to balance things before they really hit hard in the next few budgets to come.

Everyone fights for their own corner which is fair enough, but there's no denying the fact that the cost of the public sector must decrease significantly.

My wife is in the public sector so its not like it wont affect us, but im ok with it as the benefit long term far outweighs the short term impact.

implausible

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ok, so in the interests of fairness, what is your gross & net salary?

So, if I say 37k, everything I said is ok, but if it's over 67, it's not? I'd have to check my diary, think it's 50k. Regardless of what it is, I didn't go to college to be paid sh*t. If I wanted money, there are far more lucrative professions I could have gone in to. Sorry truth is, I love my job, despite the crap that's been thrown at us in the last couple of years.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't dispute that.
You are receiving 10% less pay for the same terms.

But c'mon man, its 10% of 60k!, thats only 6k!

It's is a 10% paycut! That's why we are raging at the prospect of having to take another 7-10%, while the conditions of our schools deteriorate.

Kensington wrote: »

Teachers are being singled out in this case as it is the teachers who have announced definite strike action on the 24th.

<snip>

no amount of strike action will rid the country of the fact that a lot of money is being borrowed every week just to pay wages. Wage cuts OR job cuts (or both) are coming.

Afaik, this public service strike day was announced long before the results of the teachers' ballot was known. I'm aware that pain is coming, I just want fairness and pitting two sides of the economy (who as has been pointed out, depend on each other) against each other isn't going to get us out of this mess. I would accept my cut if for example, my friends in accounting, marketing and the law profession were being hit too.

dodgyme

Kensington wrote: »

Yes, averages do distort real figures. :
.

no that is not the point of averages

"a statistic describing the location of a distribution"

how is this a distortion?

mikemac

dg647 wrote: »

Here's my two cents. There are many teachers who can afford to take a pay cut, they should be taking one. The temporary teachers who are away below the average of 60K should not have to take one.

There are also many people in the private and public sector who could afford increases taxes, they should be paying them.

The average industrial wage (meaningless figure imo) is what, around 37k I think.
And you're saying teachers on less then the average of 60k should not face cuts? Is this the same profession that gives increments for having a degree even though that's a requirement for new teachers?

Wow, if every person in the state on under 60k didn't have to face cuts that's nearly all the workforce.
But sadly many of us have already taken a paycut. You can't quote a figure of 60k and expect support, your union leaders do a better PR job then this

dg647 wrote: »

This point just goes to prove that our education system is grossly underfunded! We are near the bottom of the OECD table for spending on education as a % of GDP.

True, and some school facilities are shocking. I know I certainly attended many classes in a prefab on winters morning with no heating. Just ain't good enough......and years later nothing has changed

dg647 wrote: »

Here's my two cents. There are many teachers who can afford to take a pay cut, they should be taking one. The temporary teachers who are away below the average of 60K should not have to take one.

There are also many people in the private and public sector who could afford increases taxes, they should be paying them.

I will say temporary teachers have a raw deal but it's not on pay, it's the lack of a permanent contract.
Unless more funding is given then all you can do is get permanent teachers to retire or resign.
I include my local TD in this, a TD for seven years but still have a permanent teaching post!

Dannyboy83

dodgyme wrote: »

no that is not the point of averages

"a statistic describing the location of a distribution"

how is this a distortion?

Ok..............
so if the average teacher wage is 60k, but the real pay is much lower....................then the average industrial wage is 35k......what are they earning 5k per annum?

Dannyboy83

deemark wrote: »

So, if I say 37k, everything I said is ok, but if it's over 67, it's not? I'd have to check my diary, think it's 50k. Regardless of what it is, I didn't go to college to be paid sh*t. If I wanted money, there are far more lucrative professions I could have gone in to. Sorry truth is, I love my job, despite the crap that's been thrown at us in the last couple of years.



It's is a 10% paycut! That's why we are raging at the prospect of having to take another 7-10%, while the conditions of our schools deteriorate.



Afaik, this public service strike day was announced long before the results of the teachers' ballot was known. I'm aware that pain is coming, I just want fairness and pitting two sides of the economy (who as has been pointed out, depend on each other) against each other isn't going to get us out of this mess. I would accept my cut if for example, my friends in accounting, marketing and the law profession were being hit too.

50k:rolleyes:
Didn't go to college to be paid sh1t?

Sorry, I can't go on with this thread tbh.


Explain it to the public.

97i9y3941

heres the payscale for the teachers in the uk

http://www.tda.gov.uk/Recruit/lifeasateacher/payandbenefits/salaryscales.aspx

segaBOY

deemark wrote: »

So, if I say 37k, everything I said is ok, but if it's over 67, it's not? I'd have to check my diary, think it's 50k. Regardless of what it is, I didn't go to college to be paid sh*t. If I wanted money, there are far more lucrative professions I could have gone in to. Sorry truth is, I love my job, despite the crap that's been thrown at us in the last couple of years.

You and most of the rest of the country under the free fees scheme didn't.

What are the other lucrative areas you can earn more than €50k at the moment? I want to get into those.

The fact is plenty of others have went to college and now are finding it next to impossible to get a teaching job. Instructions have been given at Government level to cut payroll costs. So unless some level of wage reductions are brought in the new wave of teachers won't get a job for a very long time. The level of greed among teachers is astonishing.

Everyone else can take the pain but us :rolleyes:

ardmacha

Everyone wants the government to spend less money and there are always people on here saying about people on short time etc. Now the teachers are voluntarily giving up a days pay and everyone is complaining! Sure like all in the public sector they do nothing anyway, so they won't be missed.

dodgyme

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Ok..............
so if the average teacher wage is 60k, but the real pay is much lower....................then the average industrial wage is 35k......what are they earning 5k per annum?

average teacher sal is 60k ... thats on average what a person who is a teacher earns

Sandwich

Am with the 'selfish parasites' point of view and against the strike.

But in a way, it could be a good thing that it is teachers who are doing so. Education is possibly the sector in which the country can most tolerate a strike. Yes, it will make the news, disrupt parents schedules etc. But the impact on the economy will be negligible. If anything it will be positive since a days pay will be saved by the state. Say they were to shutdown for a month - would we really have any lasting effect of an 'uneducated generation'. The kids will get over it.

Teachers is as good a battlefield as any for the govt to show that it is not going to bend to self interested bullying, even if the action continues with more strike days. It might deter some of the more important sectors from going down the same route.

Diarmuid

deemark wrote: »

Reality check: people are spouting averages here. An average is a mathematical formula, not really showing day-to-day figures.

I hope you're not a maths teacher.

deemark wrote: »

Regardless of what it is, I didn't go to college to be paid sh*t. I

You know when people talk about the sense of entitlement in the public sector? This is what they are talking about.

rebel10

Kensington wrote: »

Teachers are being singled out in this case as it is the teachers who have announced definite strike action on the 24th. In previous years, teachers have also been involved in regular demands for wage increases. Also, other public servants may be joining teachers - nothing is confirmed fully yet though, just the teachers unions.

Yes, averages do distort real figures. But:
- if as many teachers are on low income scales as it would appear, there are equally as many teachers on the upper end of the spectrum to bring the average up
- when you break wages down into hourly rates, teachers come out way above any other profession
- I suspect many of the incomes quoted here are basic rates, non-inclusive of extras such as state examination corrections, supervision etc.

Ok, firstly teachers aren't the only ones that have announced strikes on the 24th, nurses and prison officers also have. In fact, nurses voted for strike action about 2 days before teachers. Because the gardai are not allowed to strike, they will unofficially turn up, those that aren't working.

When you break down the hourly rates bit is utter crap. A teacher cannot earn over-time. A guard and nurse can, this is where they take home huge amounts of pay that is not seen as being their gross pay. Do you know a guard? Ask him/her to cut their overtime and you will see their reaction.

State examinations corrections is completely separate. It is paid by the examinations commission to those that correct exams. Not all teachers do this because the work that is involved is underpaid. Generally 5 euro for a higher level script, which in general could take about 40 mins to correct, depending on the subject. The allowance for travel to Athlone to attend the marking conference has been cut dramatically(last yr), which is where examiners made any extra money. Can i just say, it is not only teachers who mark these papers, any person with a degree can do the same as long as it is their area of study.

For a long time, teachers did not get paid for supervision. Lunch time, break time etc. etc. They did so voluntarily. From experience, it is a time when your job is extremely liable. A boy last yr broke his foot on the hurling pitch at lunch time, the teacher who was supervising at the time, is in serious trouble with the board of management. Please realise that we earn an extra 900 p.yr (on average) for supervision, watching and being responsible for 650 kids for an hr a day, fair pay id say, its not a luxury. Would love to see anyone who isin't a teacher try it out for a while. Would love it.

omahaid

rebel10 wrote: »

Ok, firstly teachers aren't the only ones that have announced strikes on the 24th, nurses and prison officers also have. In fact, nurses voted for strike action about 2 days before teachers. Because the gardai are not allowed to strike, they will unofficially turn up, those that aren't working.

When you break down the hourly rates bit is utter crap. A teacher cannot earn over-time. A guard and nurse can, this is where they take home huge amounts of pay that is not seen as being their gross pay. Do you know a guard? Ask him/her to cut their overtime and you will see their reaction.

State examinations corrections is completely separate. It is paid by the examinations commission to those that correct exams. Not all teachers do this because the work that is involved is underpaid. Generally 5 euro for a higher level script, which in general could take about 40 mins to correct, depending on the subject. The allowance for travel to Athlone to attend the marking conference has been cut dramatically(last yr), which is where examiners made any extra money. Can i just say, it is not only teachers who mark these papers, any person with a degree can do the same as long as it is their area of study.

For a long time, teachers did not get paid for supervision. Lunch time, break time etc. etc. They did so voluntarily. From experience, it is a time when your job is extremely liable. A boy last yr broke his foot on the hurling pitch at lunch time, the teacher who was supervising at the time, is in serious trouble with the board of management. Please realise that we earn an extra 900 p.yr (on average) for supervision, watching and being responsible for 650 kids for an hr a day, fair pay id say, its not a luxury. Would love to see anyone who isin't a teacher try it out for a while. Would love it.

You see when you point out to a teacher how well off they are they say "Fool, why didn't you join the PS and live the life of Reilly like me" but they wont say "Ok, I suppose I can give up one of my cushy entitlements for the greater good". And then they ponder the infinite question "why do all private sector workers (especially those on the dole) begrudge paying for my exorbitant wage". And thats where we are.

irish_bob

Matthew712 wrote: »

Kensington wrote: »

The average worker in the private sector had it no better than the public sector.

Yep, they did. Something pretty much non-existant in the public sector. I'm sure it could be benchmarked in though if anyone likes :rolleyes:

As can the public sector.

Private sector employee gets paid wages from the revenue of a private company. He/She in turn pays income tax which goes to the government. The company pays VAT, PRSI, corporation tax etc.

A public sector employee gets paid wages from the government, whom gets the money from tax revenue. Yes, the public sector pays tax so a small amount ends up back in the government accounts, but ultimately the public sector is paid from tax revenue by the private sector.


Taking the cost of bailing the banks out, the total contribution of the private sector to the state last year is negative. Taking the social welfare payments into account (payments to unemployed private sector workers) for next year and the interest payments on the debts for bailing out the bank, the private sector will contribute nothing either next year. The private sector are not paying for the public sector.

your right , the european central bank is paying for the public sector right now

doc_17

Those who say that teachers don't have the best interests of their kids in mind are talking rubbish. Just because you'll be inconvienenced for 1 day you should not lose sight of the bigger picture. This strike is about a lot more that pay. If the government get their way and change our conditions of employment then your kids will be a lot worse off. no more sports, extra-curricular activities etc for them to take part in. These activities are all provided free of charge for your kids. So the question is, if schools don't do it, who will?

Head The Wall

deemark wrote: »

It's is a 10% paycut! That's why we are raging at the prospect of having to take another 7-10%, while the conditions of our schools deteriorate.

If the Govt didn't have to pay so much money to ye parasites they could plough more into the upgrade of schools and facilities. This would also be a boost to the economy (building trade and building suppliers, wages etc)

But no seemingly ye care too much about the welfare of the students. So much so that you would rather they sit in cold damp ****holes

rebel10 wrote: »

When you break down the hourly rates bit is utter crap. A teacher cannot earn over-time. A guard and nurse can, this is where they take home huge amounts of pay that is not seen as being their gross pay. Do you know a guard? Ask him/her to cut their overtime and you will see their reaction.

Not a valid point. Overtime is work that is put in outside normal working hours e.g. 39 hour week, when would a teacher even come near this!! there shouldn't be a need for overtime if the unions would let the govt employ more staff but they won't because they want the overtime for themselves

A guard knows when they sign up that they will have to work unsociable and shift hours same as a hotel manager, bar staff etc but because they are guards they get extra rates and allowances e.g an allowance to cover the fact that they are not getting unsociable hours allowance when they are on holidays. Complete and utter madness

rebel10 wrote: »

State examinations corrections is completely separate. It is paid by the examinations commission to those that correct exams. Not all teachers do this because the work that is involved is underpaid. Generally 5 euro for a higher level script, which in general could take about 40 mins to correct, depending on the subject. The allowance for travel to Athlone to attend the marking conference has been cut dramatically(last yr), which is where examiners made any extra money. Can i just say, it is not only teachers who mark these papers, any person with a degree can do the same as long as it is their area of study.

I find it hard to believe that a teacher would work for that, have you informed Dresden8 about this scandalous issue

rebel10 wrote: »

For a long time, teachers did not get paid for supervision. Lunch time, break time etc. etc. They did so voluntarily. From experience, it is a time when your job is extremely liable. A boy last yr broke his foot on the hurling pitch at lunch time, the teacher who was supervising at the time, is in serious trouble with the board of management. Please realise that we earn an extra 900 p.yr (on average) for supervision, watching and being responsible for 650 kids for an hr a day, fair pay id say, its not a luxury. Would love to see anyone who isin't a teacher try it out for a while. Would love it.

Can you explain the information in this link so

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/department-circulars/articles/circular-select-category/25/circular-article/pay-2008-revised-rates-of-pay-for-ss-for-the-2008-09-school-year//circular-back-to/circulars-relating-to-pay-and-conditions/

The rates payable to teachers for supervision in the 2008/2009 school year and the effective dates are as follows:

1st September 2008 - €50.34 per hour.

desmurphy

#15 wrote: »

I'm willing to take a pay cut. Its not about standing up for my profession, I'm trying to prevent it being dragged through the mud by idiotic union leaders.

Striking serves no purpose, and has only negative consequences.

so do you know what is proposed for your job in the future. maybe you should check. do you think promotions will come back or your job will get easier. No they wont. Striking is a democratic right. 77 to 79 % of your colleagues believe it is right but you know better. why should a public servant on 40000 take a pay cut but a chief executive in the bank pay no more tax. the fair way to do things is to make the people who earn more pay more and the way to do that is to increase tax. then everyone can play their part

Cian92

segaBOY wrote: »

Student or teacher?

Student. It will be a little annoying to have to miss school as Im doing my leaving cert, but its what has to be done.

So yes Im fully in support of the strike.

Head The Wall

doc_17 wrote: »

Those who say that teachers don't have the best interests of their kids in mind are talking rubbish. Just because you'll be inconvienenced for 1 day you should not lose sight of the bigger picture. This strike is about a lot more that pay. If the government get their way and change our conditions of employment then your kids will be a lot worse off. no more sports, extra-curricular activities etc for them to take part in. These activities are all provided free of charge for your kids. So the question is, if schools don't do it, who will?

It's called change in the real world, adapt or be left behind. We pay taxes for these services and ye get paid for it see my post above you liar

murphaph

dresden8 wrote: »

Dude, you are not an employee, you are a slave.

Empolyees get paid.

Hopefully your master might throw you a free crumbs. Enjoy them, it's all you will get from them.

This sort of carry on (late nights, weekends) are common in the private sector. You may call it slavery, and in a way it is but it's a fact of life for many in the private sector, even in supposed 'high flyer' jobs. Beginning to see how lucky you are yet dresden8??

murphaph

deemark wrote: »

I would accept my cut if for example, my friends in accounting, marketing and the law profession were being hit too.

Mark my words, if their employers can't afford to pay them what they've been paying them, they'll see pay cuts (at best).

YOUR employer can't afford to keep paying its employees what they've been getting because the private sector as a whole has contracted to the tune of 25 BILLION a year in lost TAX revenue alone.

Change employer if you feel you could get a better deal elsewhere.

Diarmuid

desmurphy wrote: »

the fair way to do things is to make the people who earn more pay more and the way to do that is to increase tax. then everyone can play their part

No the fair way to do it is to pay people who do comparable jobs in the public and private sector the same. If benchmarking was good enough for you 5 years ago, it should be good enough for you now.

murphaph

Diarmuid wrote: »

No the fair way to do it is to pay people who do comparable jobs in the public and private sector the same. If benchmarking was good enough for you 5 years ago, it should be good enough for you now.

Spot on. The Teachers wanted their salaries benchmarked to the private sector on the way up, but now want it pegged while the private sector rates of pay fall or are wiped out completely. Fcuking disgraceful GREED.

doc_17

Head The Wall wrote: »

It's called change in the real world, adapt or be left behind. We pay taxes for these services and ye get paid for it see my post above you liar

Sorry you are wrong. teachers stay back in the evenings, lunch time, come in before school to organise and run these activities and do not have to do it, nor do they get paid for it. They do it because they recognise the value it will bring. Teachers are employed and paid to teach their classes and anything else is voluntary. It's a pity you have to resort to name calling, just shows you are wrong and have no other argument or worthwhile contribution to make!

segaBOY

Cian92 wrote: »

Student. It will be a little annoying to have to miss school as Im doing my leaving cert, but its what has to be done.

So yes Im fully in support of the strike.

And what are your grounds for supporting this? You do realise that this issue is solely about teachers pay?

heavyballs

rebel10 wrote: »

Ok, firstly teachers aren't the only ones that have announced strikes on the 24th, nurses and prison officers also have. In fact, nurses voted for strike action about 2 days before teachers. Because the gardai are not allowed to strike, they will unofficially turn up, those that aren't working.

When you break down the hourly rates bit is utter crap. A teacher cannot earn over-time. A guard and nurse can, this is where they take home huge amounts of pay that is not seen as being their gross pay. Do you know a guard? Ask him/her to cut their overtime and you will see their reaction.



For a long time, teachers did not get paid for supervision. Lunch time, break time etc. etc. They did so voluntarily. From experience, it is a time when your job is extremely liable. A boy last yr broke his foot on the hurling pitch at lunch time, the teacher who was supervising at the time, is in serious trouble with the board of management. Please realise that we earn an extra 900 p.yr (on average) for supervision, watching and being responsible for 650 kids for an hr a day, fair pay id say, its not a luxury. Would love to see anyone who isin't a teacher try it out for a while. Would love it.

lets leave the prison guards etc out of this for now
with the average primary school teachers annual salary €60k added to the fact that they have the summer hols off and finish at 3 or half 3 in the afternoon, can you defent that?
The standard of teaching that i have experienced in this country is really bad,most of the older one's i've come in to contact with myself and through my kids are just going through the motions,
I'm not saying it's the easiest of jobs but if you're good at your job you'll enjoy it.The teachers that give out are the one's that cant handle the kids.
It must be tough leaving school every day before the traffic gets bad and then spending your summer holidays on the beach,and then they get all high and mighty when i take my kids out of school for a holiday in May as i couldn't afford it in the peak season.
You can take your hols anytime during the summer,no expence spared.
Do you have a holiday home like most of your colleagues?
Give an honest answer as threee of my wife's friends are teachers in the 30's and 40's so was just wondering.

segaBOY

Socondary teachers are compelled to work a 22 hour week.

They get 2 weeks off at christmas. 12 weeks off in summer. 1 week off in Haloween and 1 (or is it 2?) weeks off in Easter.

So by my count they get at least 16 weeks off during the year.

Normally workers get 4 weeks off.

So teachers work 12 weeks less a year.

Average earnings €60,000.

52 weeks - 12 weeks (lets leave the 4 weeks statutory out of it) = 40 weeks.

€60,000/40 weeks = €1,500 per week / 22 hours = €68.1 per hour.

Diarmuid

Cian92 wrote: »

So yes Im fully in support of the strike.

You might not be so gung ho in 10 years when you are paying the interest on a loan for something you never benefited . Nothing like watching your hard earned money being pissed away to change attitudes.

As Churchill said “Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.”

segaBOY

Diarmuid wrote: »

You might not be so gung ho in 10 years when you are paying the interest on a loan for something you never benefited . Nothing like watching your hard earned money being pissed away to change attitudes.

As Churchill said “Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.”

I'm one heartless backstard then