The Irish Reformation

Dannyboy83

It has been suggested recently that we should demand to have ministerial salaries and expenses published on a 3 month basis, in order to re balance our society and eliminate corruption.
Indeed it appears this will shortly be a reality.

The Teachers strike has brought to light the shocking fact that the average wage for a teacher is €60k per annum!! Its now clear that we have been living in a form of economic apartheid for several years. Even many temporary teachers in the Teachers strike thread outlined the inequality which exists within their own organisations and how they are effectively second class citizens, bullied and coerced into making decisions they do not wish to make. It is, in all but name, an oligarchy.

In the interest of fairness but especially reform, should we not demand that the wages of Teachers and indeed all public servants are also published along the with the ministerial salaries on a regular basis?

Should we not have a private body, outside of government control, set up to monitor, review and publish these government expenses?


If we are going to reform this country and make a real attempt at recovery, one of our initial and immediate objectives must be the elimination of the greed and corruption which has infected certain areas of the public sector, indeed the areas where most of our expenditure goes: Health & Education

I don't see any alternative path we can take if we are going to fix this country.

p.s. no cribbing and moaning from the teachers about averages unless they are prepared to post their net salary.

segaBOY

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The Teachers strike has brought to light the shocking fact that the average wage for a teacher is €60k per annum!! Its now clear that we have been living in a form of economic apartheid for several years. Even many temporary teachers in the Teachers strike thread outlined the inequality which exists within their own organisations and how they are effectively second class citizens, bullied and coerced into making decisions they do not wish to make. It is, in all but name, an oligarchy.

Could lower ranking teachers form their own union-much like the CPSU? Instead of having to tow the more established and permanent ASTI/TUI/INTO line. (If they really do feel that strongly about this issue of course).

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In the interest of fairness but especially reform, should we not demand that the wages of Teachers and indeed all public servants are also published along the with the ministerial salaries on a regular basis?

Should we not have a private body, outside of government control, set up to monitor, review and publish these government expenses?

Sure, however we read reports on a very regular basis about the gap in the public-v-private sector wages compiled by the CSO. Is this almost the same thing, and would the proposed body be simply another quango to waste taxpayers money? Just teasing your idea!

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If we are going to reform this country and make a real attempt at recovery, one of our initial and immediate objectives must be the elimination of the greed and corruption which has infected certain areas of the public sector, indeed the areas where most of our expenditure goes: Health & Education

Certainly. And greed and corruption among the private sector must also be looked at. Extensive lobbying by the construction industry (see aftermath of the Peter Bacon Report as example 1) and reckless lending damaged this country the most. Public Sector pay was on the back of this-they saw the ever growing pie and wanted a piece, and Bertie saw the ever growing votes and decided to indulge them.

I agree with what you're saying, but don't think it's exclusive to the public sector here.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't see any alternative path we can take if we are going to fix this country.

Sure, it is a good idea and accountability of Public Sector wages needs to be looked at (and is being). CSO figures give some data and salary scales make up the rest. However for every bonus you hear of in the papers there is undoubtably a lot of payments going unnoticed, and for that reason alone-your idea is a good one.

Just don't limit recovery to reforming the public sector alone. Our economy needs to be revitalised-and that means a lot more than reforming tax bases and expenditure.

Dannyboy83

segaBOY wrote: »

Could lower ranking teachers form their own union-much like the CPSU? Instead of having to tow the more established and permanent ASTI/TUI/INTO line. (If they really do feel that strongly about this issue of course).

I proposed this to one or two individuals.
Their response was that (i)they would be seen as troublemakers by the established teachers within their own organisation, (ii) looked on as trouble makers by principals who were heavily supportive of existing organisations, and (iii) ultimately exclude themselves from permanency.

(I hope you don't mind me posting directly Rebel10, if you're uncomfortable with that I will remove it:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63000506&postcount=169)

It is incredibly ironic that if the same standards were applied to the oligarchs themselves, there would guerrilla warfare.
To me, its a blunt fact that these people cannot protect themselves.
They are at the mercy of both the government and the oligarchs/teachers within the education system, but ultimately, they are used as pawns by the unions.

Sure, however we read reports on a very regular basis about the gap in the public-v-private sector wages compiled by the CSO. Is this almost the same thing, and would the proposed body be simply another quango to waste taxpayers money? Just teasing your idea!

Yes, its a good criticism.
However, there is very little certainty with regard to those figures.
Many people including myself were not aware that the average wage was so astronomical. This has been the case for a number of years.
The inequality and inflation which this causes in society is massively destructive, not to mention the effect on the exchequer and national debt.

I wouldn't recognise it as a quango, as it should be funded privately or else should be an umbrella oganisation of IBEC for example.

Certainly. And greed and corruption among the private sector must also be looked at. Extensive lobbying by the construction industry (see aftermath of the Peter Bacon Report as example 1) and reckless lending damaged this country the most. Public Sector pay was on the back of this-they saw the ever growing pie and wanted a piece, and Bertie saw the ever growing votes and decided to indulge them.

I agree with what you're saying, but don't think it's exclusive to the public sector here.

Yes indeed, I agree, the private sector also needs to be reformed.
There are 3 points to this:
(I) Reform of the private sector is an issue which in many cases required complex new legislation or long investigations. Reform of the public sector as I proposed, beginning with my above suggestion, is a very simple and straightforward suggestion which would begin to have immediate impact and to a certain extent, disarm the propaganda used by various unions.

(II) I believe that smashing the apartheid which has existed until the budget crisis will help reassure private sector workers that they are not being ripped off and eliminate some private sector corruption by contributing to this. Wages will be far more comparable than ever before and it will lead to equality. Don't forget, it can also be used as a tool by unions to protect public sector workers pay at all levels.

(III) It will be the first step on the road to real reform. Undeniably, there are some teachers who are worth 60k per annum. Undeniably, there are some teachers who are not.
Currently, this is "benchmarked" in ridiculous manners.
If we could reform this system, we would get far more bang for our buck in both Health and Education, as the dead weight would drift away and the productive workers would be rewarded as they full deserve to be.

(IV) The original article I linked to showed that there is still gender discrimination, where women were paid 8k less than men. This could be quickly eliminated.

I wouldn't presume to claim reform of either the public or private sectors is a simple task. However, the first step is very simple.
A journey of a thousand steps, always starts with the first step.
Transparency is the first, simple step.

ei.sdraob

im not a lawyer
but since Revenue know everyenes "declared" income
is it not a matter of getting info from them under a Freedom of information act?



that would be a great idea, make a database on revenue site where you can lookup what anyone earned and how much tax they payed

thats already the case with CRO.ie site where anyone can request directorship info and up to date accounts of any Limited company

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

that would be a great idea, make a database on revenue site where you can lookup what anyone earned and how much tax they payed

Are you serious?

Maybe after that we could put another section on the website allowing people to see what is in their bank accounts too!

NewDubliner

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Its now clear that we have been living in a form of economic apartheid for several years. .... It is, in all but name, an oligarchy.

In apartheid South Africa, the basic characteristics of oligarchy are particularly easy to observe, since the South African form of oligarchy was based on race. After the Second Boer War, a tacit agreement was reached between English- and Afrikaans-speaking whites. Together, they made up about twenty percent of the population, but this small percentage ruled the vast native population. Whites had access to virtually all the educational and trade opportunities, and they proceeded to deny this to the black majority even further than before.

I don't see many similarities between the former SA and here, can you elaborate? Who are the 'whites' and who are the 'afrikaaners' here? How do they keep other people out?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Should we not have a private body, outside of government control, set up to monitor, review and publish these government expenses?

Then, why not also do the same for ALL private sector salaries, expenses and pension plans?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't see any alternative path we can take if we are going to fix this country.

How does publishing the salary and expense details of people you don't like, fix things?

dresden8

NewDubliner wrote: »

How does publishing the salary and expense details of people you don't like, fix things?

We're in the politics of hate now.

Dannyboy83

NewDubliner wrote: »

I don't see many similarities between the former SA and here, can you elaborate? Who are the 'whites' and who are the 'afrikaaners' here? How do they keep other people out?

The oligarchs are the greedy, overpaid permanent & unionised teachers earning twice the average industrial wage and who say emigration is good for people.

The opressed are the underpaid, temporary & non-unionised teachers, earning below the average industrial wage and who are forced to tow their rulers line, lest they damage their own chances of promotion, progression, permanency.

Then, why not also do the same for ALL private sector salaries, expenses and pension plans?

Im not sure if its legal but its a good idea.
I have no problem with it personally, I've already stated my salary in the teachers strike thread. I have no pension or expenses.

In fact, if it had been the case, benchmarking probably never would have happened.

How does publishing the salary and expense details of people you don't like, fix things?

Why should there be one rule for ministers and one rule for public servants?

It has nothing to do with who I do or don't like - how did you come to that conclusion?
My father is a civil servant, my sister is a public servant, and my aunt is a teacher.

The reason it fixes things is because:
(I) Disarm the propaganda used by various unions. In the event we ever see an economic boom again, benchmarking will be appropriate.
It won't be a system where teachers get paid twice the average wage and then fight tooth and nail against reform

(II) It will smash the apartheid that exists within the education system.
Underpaid, temporary & non-unionised teachers will no longer have to tow the line of the oligarchs.
The INTO (if it will still exist) will have to fight for real reform, not greed.

Instead of having 20 overpaid teachers and 5 temps, you would have 40 well paid teachers.

(III) Help to eliminate the gender and pay discrimination outlined in the link I provided. i.e. Only 15% of teachers in primary are male, Women make €8k less than men

(IV) Might help to cut dead weight and reward the good teachers

Plenty more reasons, feel free to add your own:)

Dannyboy83

dresden8 wrote: »

We're in the politics of hate now.

My father is a civil servant, my sister is a public servant, and my aunt is a teacher.

Politics of pragmatism & reform.
Hate can go to the back of the picket line.

dresden8

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Why should there be one rule for ministers and one rule for public servants?

Why should there be one rule for public servants and another for private sector?

Publish everybody's earning.

Publish people's social welfare payments.

Publish property portfolios and rental income of all.

Publish bank accounts of all.

Why not go the whole hog. Then we'll know who has what, and who the real oligarchs are.

NewDubliner

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The oligarchs are the greedy, overpaid permanent & unionised teachers earning twice the average industrial wage and who say emigration is good for people.

Ah so, the country is being run by teachers and only members of their families are allowed to become teachers? That's news to me.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I have no pension

So you're not paying PRSI? Why is that?

dresden8

NewDubliner wrote: »

So you're not paying PRSI? Why is that?

I presume he's paying the pension levy?

The one that allegedly contributes to his massive public sector pension.

Dannyboy83

dresden8 wrote: »

Why should there be one rule for public servants and another for private sector?

Publish everybody's earning.

Publish people's social welfare payments.

Publish property portfolios and rental income of all.

Publish bank accounts of all.

Why not go the whole hog. Then we'll know who has what, and who the real oligarchs are.

While I don't disagree with anything of your suggestions, you've taken a big step there from monitoring and publishing public servants salaries.

My suggestion is easy to do.
I've no idea how to implement yours.

Dannyboy83

NewDubliner wrote: »

Ah so, the country is being run by teachers and only members of their families are allowed to become teachers? That's news to me.

So you're not paying PRSI? Why is that?

:rolleyes:

dresden8

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

While I don't disagree with anything of your suggestions, you've taken a big step there from monitoring and publishing public servants salaries.

My suggestion is easy to do.
I've no idea how to implement yours.

So public employees alone are to be "monitored".

Apartheid indeed.

Dannyboy83

dresden8 wrote: »

So public employees alone are to be "monitored".

Apartheid indeed.

Thanks for your contribution.

dresden8

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution.

No problem.

When can I expect my monitoring to commence?

olhos

i dont live in ireland. however, i have been in stitches laughing at the posts on teachers etc. obvioulsy very serious issue for a lot of people. from my reading the posts it seems as though the country´s woes are because of teachers and high salaries. jealousy ? who wouldn´t want to earn more money ?. Mismanagement is at the root of irelands problems, whether it be thru corruption, laziness or greed of politicians, senior civil servant, union leaders, bankers and developers. As I see it regardless of who is at fault, you are all going to suffer in some way.

I first heard a song by the late great Ronnie Drew in the height of the boom times called what´ll we tell the children. At the tine I thought it so inappropriate in boomboom ireland. It could now be number 1 forever.

NewDubliner

olhos wrote: »

i dont live in ireland. however, i have been in stitches laughing at the posts on teachers etc. obvioulsy very serious issue for a lot of people. from my reading the posts it seems as though the country´s woes are because of teachers and high salaries. jealousy ?

I suspect that it's more likely that for a certain element, their only contact, so far in their young lives, with any public sector worker has been with teachers & it is not a happy experience for them.

ceret

Good in theory. However there wasn't a coverup of how much teachers et al were getting in the boom times, it's just that no-one cared.