irishcycling.com interview with Phil Leigh

Slideshowbob

http://www.irishcycling.com/publish/news/art_4461.shtml

Is it just me or is there alot of waffle from Phil Leigh, the Cycling Ireland High Performance Director in his irishcycling.com interview?

He goes on about the 3 pro's great performances this year which would not have had alot to do with him as a director.

He then goes on about track events and Bradley Wiggins, Victoria Pendleton and Chris Hoy who are British!

Regarding non-qualification for u23 worlds, Leigh says there was 6 qualifying events, According to UCI website - there was 7:

26-28.03
Grand Prix du Portugal (POR)
10.04
Tour des Flandres Espoirs (BEL)
14.04
La Côte Picarde (FRA)
17.04
ZLM Tour (NED)
26.04-01.05
Giro delle Regioni (ITA)
03-06.06
Coupe des Nations Ville Saguenay (CAN)
05-12.09
Tour de l'Avenir (FRA)

Also, the High Performance strategy document posted on the cyclingireland.ie website: http://www.cyclingireland.ie/html/site/resources/document.jsp?doc=402&cat=General looks like alot of copy and pasting.

The diagram on page 9 of the document makes no sense and merely looks like a page filler to confuse people.

Junior

A former international cyclist told me a very good story about Phil in his racing days, he doesn't rate him at all. He spent a week defending third or fourth position in a stage race, chasing down attacks of people who were actually aiming for first, yet never went for first.

Lumen

Slideshowbob wrote: »

The diagram on page 9 of the document makes no sense and merely looks like a page filler to confuse people.

That's a joke, surely?

RobFowl

Lumen wrote: »

That's a joke, surely?

Thats the ideal model of support services for a high performance plan as designed by the Irish institiute for sport and the Sports council of Northern Ireland.
The idea of that diagram is that the athlete is at the centre and all the disiplines are arranged around them "the Athlete centred model"

Lumen

RobFowl wrote: »

Thats the ideal model of support services for a high performance plan as designed by the Irish institiute for sport and the Sports council of Northern Ireland.
The idea of that diagram is that the athlete is at the centre and all the disiplines are arranged around them "the Athlete centred model"

Oh, OK. Awesome.

It looked to me like a child got a bit overexcited with the crayons after being first taught the meaning of "Venn Diagram".

BryanL

Another guy he mentions is Kelvin Batey?
another British rider??? 17 times british champion, 14 years representing Britain http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2007/09/25/kelvin_batey_bmx_rider_feature.shtml

WTF, is Irish cycling just funding British riders who don't make the British cut anymore.

Matt Brammeier?

Is it just a case of, if your not good enough for england go to Ireland and they'll give you cash. I'd like Irish riders to be proud to represent Ireland, not just see the green jersey as best way for representing themselves?
Bryan

Quigs Snr

Leigh on the face of it looks like a small time time appointment for a small time organisation. The day will come that our riders will succeed because of the organisation that they are part of, rather than despite it. But not yet. The brits have shown how its done and australia to some extent before them, we can say that we don't have their resources but thats not the problem, the problem is that we don't have their ambition either.

Beasty

BryanL wrote: »

Is it just a case of, if your not good enough for england go to Ireland and they'll give you cash.

I'm definitely not good enough for England. So, if there's any cash going ....:D

Junior

BryanL wrote: »

Another guy he mentions is Kelvin Batey?
another British rider??? 17 times british champion, 14 years representing Britain http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2007/09/25/kelvin_batey_bmx_rider_feature.shtml

WTF, is Irish cycling just funding British riders who don't make the British cut anymore.

Matt Brammeier?

Is it just a case of, if your not good enough for england go to Ireland and they'll give you cash. I'd like Irish riders to be proud to represent Ireland, not just see the green jersey as best way for representing themselves?
Bryan

I'm horribly afraid it's a cynical ploy at importing some riders to make up numbers and get results to justify the program and it's directors. Rather than work with what we are good at we are trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear to sell at a Market that has already got enough people trading there already.

Now to clarify I'm not calling any of our riders sows ears either. I just think they (cycling ireland and dr. phil) see a program that works (britian) and we are copying it regardless of the style/type of rider we have.

Junior

I see from Yesterdays indo Dr. Phil want's to pull funding for the three pros.

Slideshowbob

Junior wrote: »

I see from Yesterdays indo Dr. Phil want's to pull funding for the three pros.

Here's a photo of the good Dr. with the three pros

Junior

I don't fancy yours much ..

Dura Ace

I just saw this announcement on www.cyclingireland.ie announcing the team for the Melbourne round of the Track World Cup. I haven't a clue who any of these people are.

High Performance Update

The team for the World Track Cup in Melbourne from 20th – 22nd November is:

1. Tim Lewellyn
2. Simon Lewellyn

Manager: Jeff Smith

The riders will be riding the points, scratch and Madison events.

ednwireland

they prob already moved out there

RobFowl

Dura Ace wrote: »

I just saw this announcement on www.cyclingireland.ie announcing the team for the Melbourne round of the Track World Cup. I haven't a clue who any of these people are.

High Performance Update

The team for the World Track Cup in Melbourne from 20th – 22nd November is:

1. Tim Lewellyn
2. Simon Lewellyn

Manager: Jeff Smith

The riders will be riding the points, scratch and Madison events.

They are national level track cyclists who qualify for Ireland under parental/grandparent rules.
The rules for world championship qualification state that countries must enter teams in at least 4 out of the 5 world cup events.
the total his performance budget (for all disiplines) is 455,000.
To send a team form here wold cost 10,000 at least.
10 events in the next Olympics will be on the track, 2 will be BMX. 2 MTB and 4 on the road.
High performance budgets are linked to Olympic results and performances.
Pragmatism can appear ugly but is sometimes nessecary.

BryanL

It seems a bit like the Arab countries paying for African talent to represent them at International athletics.
I never see a Kenyan winning in different colours as anything other than a victory for Kenya.
If Ireland doesn't have enough talent for Track and BMX events , then it doesn't have the talent. Scourging the world for handy cyclists, with a Irish granny is hardly "High Performance Developement" and is a waste of money to me.
Pragmatic, why not just give all the money to Sir Chris Hoy for the lend of one medal?
Bryan

ednwireland

BryanL wrote: »

I never see a Kenyan winning in different colours as anything other than a victory for Kenya.

hmmmm do you follow athletics ?
Gregory Konchellah now Yousef Saed Kamel from bahrain

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/08/20/1250362150537.html?feed=fairfaxdigitalxml

just the first one that sprung to mind

ninetythree.six

Looks like the two boys are well settled in with Dr Phil's squad. New skin suits.

Check out the link below to the forum on their clubs website, they have given some insight into the selection process !!!!!

Quote from Simon Llewyllen "The Irish federation has also supplied us with a manager & mechanic for the event & a few other perks which are available to us...."

http://www.dhbc.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1494

Quigs Snr

That pic is hosted on the Dulwich hill club in Sydney showing the 2 new guys with their chairman Geoff Martin. I rode with that club whilst in Australia a couple of years ago, Geoff was a real gentleman, has a wife from Wexford and rides with Slaney CC whilst visiting the inlaws...

Anyone heading to Sydney and fancies a spin should look them up. Great bunch of lads. Good luck to them, interesting strategy to fulfil the qualifying criteria having "granny rule" riders help us through qualification....interested to see how it turns out.

RobFowl

Quigs Snr wrote: »

That pic is hosted on the Dulwich hill club in Sydney showing the 2 new guys with their chairman Geoff Martin. I rode with that club whilst in Australia a couple of years ago, Geoff was a real gentleman, has a wife from Wexford and rides with Slaney CC whilst visiting the inlaws...

Anyone heading to Sydney and fancies a spin should look them up. Great bunch of lads. Good luck to them, interesting strategy to fulfil the qualifying criteria having "granny rule" riders help us through qualification....interested to see how it turns out.

It's a tough one. Our team pusuit squad missed the worlds last year as we hadn't attended enough world cup events (Copenhagen, Los Angeles, Melbourne and Bejing). Sending squads form here to each of those would have used up most of the budget available.
Our funding system is driven by short and medium term goals principally medals and top tens at major championships. It means seeking out riders with Irish backrounds is attractive although hopefully a short term solution.

Talent ID programs are ongoing. Caroline Ryan the pilot for Catherine Walsh who won a silver at the paralympic worlds recently was picked up via this system so results are starting to show. Denis Toomey the paralympic manager has alot to do with that as well.

Quigs Snr

If it secures qualification, then I think its a pretty good idea. Sure it would be better to send the athletes who you intend to compete in the big events you are trying to qualify for but otherwise this could be a good case of using our limited resources in a smarter and more practical way. At the very least, it shows a little imagination and ambition and I like that.

ninetythree.six

It looks like they were selected on the back of a selector(i wonder who this was?) turning up at a national event in Oz and gauging their performance along with discussions with CI. This seems to go against the track selection criteria just published where results are based on international events !

This is from the forum on their club website(see link in my previous post)

Simon said - "I won't go into the details but it was actually quite a long process. It took over a month of communicating with the Irish coach to make it happen, I had to convince him that we were worthy of national selection.

They wouldn't just let anyone represent Ireland, the Irish federation had to be convinced that we would be good representatives. It is costing them a fair bit of money and they have a reputation to uphold, all the world cycling media will be at this event. That's one other significant difference from the masters competition."

Timothy said "We had a bit of luck on my side of it all, on the night the selector turned up to raw I was having a blinder in A grade, and me and simon placed first in a race that I lead simon out for the win in."

It's good to see they can compete at national events in Oz, they will need to be on form at the World Cup.

ninetythree.six

I see the start lists for the pursuit and points race have been posted at http://www.tissottiming.com/. They also post the results normally a couple of hours after each event.

Simon is riding the pursuit qualifier tomorrow, funny CI haven't mentioned he was entered to ride this event. It will be interesting to see how fast he goes and if he will be close to Dave McCann's time in Manchester 4.36.8 this would be a good benchmark for him to achieve. There are 14 starters, not too many big names apart from the rider from the Ukraine who finished 3rd in Manchester last month. Simon could score a World Cup top ten !!! he only has to go quicker than three other riders !!

Tim is riding in the second points race qualifier, looks like he has a tough heat, the rider from Hong Kong finished 2nd to Chris Newton in Manchester.

ninetythree.six

Both Tim and Simon finished last in their respective heats.

Simon did 4.56 for the 4km, 13th

Looks like Tim lost a lap to the main field and a second to the winning group of riders.

Quigs Snr

Well you have to start somewhere I suppose. I don't think that we really need a big result to meet our qualification quota do we ? We just needed to have people there in the relevant events and if thats the case then mission accomplished. Melbourne is a long way to go and sucks up a lot of our very small budget, so its by far the better alternative to use local riders for qualification (and if they get to the level where they are competitive at the business end of things, all the better)

Fair play to Simon and Tim too for going out there and doing it. Can you imagine what it must feel like to make your international debut at a world cup event against the best ? I think I would cease up and die from fear before the flag dropped.

ninetythree.six

Unfortunately the days of taking part don't count. Qualification for any event for the worlds is based on points scored in each round of the world cup.

RobFowl

ninetythree.six wrote: »

Unfortunately the days of taking part don't count. Qualification for any event for the worlds is based on points scored in each round of the world cup.

It's also does depend on having a team compete at each event.

The Team pursuit qualified on points for the Worlds this year but were not allowed compete as they had only competed at 2 of the World cup events.

So for eaxample by any pursuit rider competing at each event DOL can qualify enough points at a later event with one good ride. Means the best we have can concentrate on the bigger events.

DOL is world class at the IP and can ride point races competitively. Matt Brammier seems capable of results at the scratch and points events so it is important that we send a team to each world cup (in so far as possible) to try to ensure places at the worlds.
Our team pursuit squad relied heavily on Paul Healion and is in the process of being rebuilt so the 2010 Worlds may be too soon for them to perform.

That said the brothers are not setting the world on fire so far

ninetythree.six

Thanks for the update.

I read on their club forum that it was Tim's first points race, is a World Cup the best place to start?

http://www.dhbc.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1502

Its a big ask to step up to this level without any experience. Heres hoping the scratch and madison go better for the lads.

Quigs Snr

I think Robfowl is bang on with the strategy, I hear DOL is only doing 2 world cup races next year and will be a bit more focussed on the road, so having local riders tick the attendance box for us in Melbourne is not a bad idea at all.... I think its a very good idea to tap into Irish talent abroad.

Especially on the track, after all we have had some promising track performances in recent times despite there not being a single velodrome in Ireland. Using athletes based abroad or sending our athletes abroad is pretty much our only option if we are truly targetting track medals.

Junior

But is targetting track medals what we should be doing ? 8 years too late ?

Quigs Snr

Probably not. With no velodrome its a bit like Jamaica and their bobsleigh team.

RobFowl

Junior wrote: »

But is targetting track medals what we should be doing ? 8 years too late ?

Olympic games are the pinnacle of sport as seen by the Sports council and ultimately funding is based on how we perform there.
18 medal events there for cycling
4 on the Road
2 off road
2 BMX
10 on the track


It's a no-brainer

timyone

hi lads, my names Tim, im one of the brothers that competed in the Glorious green and ummm white, for the country that i was totally stoked to represent!! And yeah, mum is Irish.

Sorry i didnt have a bit of a stronger showing in my first ever points race ( i have seen alot of them). Coming up to the world cup, i was off on a trip to India and Nepal, where i picked up a bit of a stomach bug that stopped me from training any more than once every two days as well as making me tired after every thing. In light of this, i still shouldnt have been lapped in the points heat, but once i was i was alot more competative with two finishes one spot out of scoring points

Simon's stats are nothing like how well he went, 6 people lapped the field, so the final sprint was confusing, but he came 5th or 6th in the sprint at the end, but it still wasnt enough to qualify.

Our Madison was hampered by a missed change, we did 10 to 20 (maybe more) time trialling off the back, keeping upbut unable to get back on, before later being pulled out of the race just over a lap down.

With the amount of prep time we were given in mind, we performed pretty well. There is alot of room for improvement. I have been training as a roadie this year, and have been specialising more in the 120km plus races. Track season has just started and its all swapping over, so if we get another chance, things will hopefully be improved. But yeah, either way, we loved every minute of it.

BryanL

Great to hear you enjoyed wearing the Green and White. Kick AS*
Bryan

ninetythree.six

Great to hear you enjoyed the experience. I have to say I was a little surprised that Cycling Ireland would enter you into your first Points Race at a World Cup event, this seems to go against their recently published selection criteria? but fair play to you for taking the opportunity to compete at this level.

I think you and your brother may have created a little bit of history as the first irish team to compete in a Madison at a World Cup event, you should ask Cycling Ireland to confirm this.

Based on your performances in Melbourne will you be competing at the next round of the World Cup in Columbia?

Slideshowbob

ninetythree.six wrote: »

Great to hear you enjoyed the experience. I have to say I was a little surprised that Cycling Ireland would enter you into your first Points Race at a World Cup event, this seems to go against their recently published selection criteria? but fair play to you for taking the opportunity to compete at this level.

I think you and your brother may have created a little bit of history as the first irish team to compete in a Madison at a World Cup event, you should ask Cycling Ireland to confirm this.

Based on your performances in Melbourne will you be competing at the next round of the World Cup in Columbia?

i thought they only got to race in WC because it was on their doorstep?!??

The Crunch

Fair play Tim, and thanks for your efforts. I'd say your mum was very proud.

55x11

Slideshowbob wrote: »

i thought they only got to race in WC because it was on their doorstep?!??

As far as I know you much be on the high performance squad to be selected for anymore of the upcoming world cups. So that includes David O'Loughlin, David McCann, Martyn Irvine, Stephen Barrett, Marcus Christie, Aaron Buggle, Matt Brammeier, Sean Downey and Sam Bennett. All of these boys have met the criteria, I know because I was on the talent transfer squad and was SRM tested for the squad but was no where near the power these guys can put out in testing. I saw them training a couple of times at the track in Aigle earlier this year and they are by far the best track riders in the country. I was in the crowd at the manchester world cup and the time they did didn't justify how good they actually are, a few things just didn't go right on the day from what I saw. There is some good talent there, I am a good Cat 1 rider and was no where near where I had to be to make the squad. Also Matt Brammeier did a great ride in the scratch race so the potential is definitely there for them to go near the 4.05 mark with some more technique work.

M

Lumen

55x11 wrote: »

I was on the talent transfer squad and was SRM tested for the squad but was no where near the power these guys can put out in testing.

Got any numbers to share?

55x11

Lumen wrote: »

Got any numbers to share?

Do you fancy your chances of beating a few of them??

Personally my max minute power was 425w which I though was pretty decent seeing I was well placed in a number of A grade races last year but apparently to get even considered for the squad you much be well over 500w (second hand information).

Lumen

55x11 wrote: »

Do you fancy your chances of beating a few of them??

Personally my max minute power was 425w which I though was pretty decent seeing I was well placed in a number of A grade races last year but apparently to get even considered for the squad you much be well over 500w (second hand information).

LOL, no, but I think you missed a number there though - 500W for 1 minute power is unexceptional. Do you mean 5 minute power?

55x11

Lumen wrote: »

LOL, no, but I think you missed a number there though - 500W for 1 minute power is unexceptional. Do you mean 5 minute power?

Haha, sorry I didn't explain it too well. The max minute power is obtained from doing a ramp test. So starting off at around 300w and the load increasing by 20w every minute until you can't go anymore, its not too pleasant. When I did it they even had a sick bucket beside the bike. I have done a few 4minute max sustainable power tests as well so I would presume they would all be over or around 500w also.

ninetythree.six

The team for the next round of the world cup was announced, its a big squad with a women's and men's squad, with the women entered for the team pursuit, this is a great step forward.

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/html/site/cyclingireland/story.jsp?id=1557

http://www.copamundopistacali.com/

It will be interesting to see how they all cope with the change in altitude:eek: (1000mtrs approx)

The best of luck to the team.

Patagoniaboy

Junior wrote: »

A former international cyclist told me a very good story about Phil in his racing days, he doesn't rate him at all. He spent a week defending third or fourth position in a stage race, chasing down attacks of people who were actually aiming for first, yet never went for first.

I also know Phil. I seem to remember that Phil was trying to maintain or improve his place in that race "the Ras" too. he wasn't in any team so had to do everything himself. No one to chase for him or to drag him across. he won all his races by attacking. And when he didn't win he was still always attacking rather than being a sit in sprinter. A tactic that is adopted by many people who are not actually sprinters but lack any hard graft ethic.

So when your Pro recites the story make sure he gets it correct, otherwise, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't carry on the here say.

What Phil lacked in natural abiliti, he made up with hard graft and tenacity.

maybe if you all practice that rather than waiting for a free gift win, then you would be in a better situation as a cycling nation than now.

Slideshowbob

oooooooooohhhhhhhhh controversial!!

Junior

Patagoniaboy wrote: »

I also know Phil. I seem to remember that Phil was trying to maintain or improve his place in that race "the Ras" too. he wasn't in any team so had to do everything himself. No one to chase for him or to drag him across. he won all his races by attacking. And when he didn't win he was still always attacking rather than being a sit in sprinter. A tactic that is adopted by many people who are not actually sprinters but lack any hard graft ethic.

So when your Pro recites the story make sure he gets it correct, otherwise, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't carry on the here say.

What Phil lacked in natural abiliti, he made up with hard graft and tenacity.

maybe if you all practice that rather than waiting for a free gift win, then you would be in a better situation as a cycling nation than now.

Ask Robert Power, I repeated it as it was told..

Patagoniaboy

Junior wrote: »

Ask Robert Power, I repeated it as it was told..

I am sorry to hear that Robert would not have been able to put Phi'ls efforts into context. I am sure that Phil would have had great respect for Robert and would have hoped that as an Olympian he would have understood how hard it is for one man to race against what at the time would have been over 200 Irish men.

I am also sure that you would come go to the UK on your own for a 8 day Multi-stage race and race your knackers off trying to hold onto the prospect of a top placing. In these events anything can happen. Who knows when someone will crack - so just keep on plugging away.

RobFowl

Patagoniaboy wrote: »

maybe if you had practice that rather than waiting for a free gift win race organising skills, then you would be in a better situation as a cycling nation than now, and have a 2.2 Ras and a 2.1 TOI and not have the police cancelling all your events.

FYP

PS Phil's a good guy and as the race program shows is getting the young riders racing at the best events. Last years program was one he inherited.

Patagoniaboy

Well pointed out Rob.

I am a bit worried that I may have offended people on my first post. That is not my intention but I know Phil and believe he has your best interests at heart. Yours in Sport PB

X files

Not to sure about this guy Dr Phil. I keep coming accross English riders and clubs are be approached by scouts / whatever to represent Ireland.
It seems more effort in England than here. Is someone building up contacts/ reputation for there own good.
I have been surprised by how many good Irish born and based riders of both sexes are being overlooked or ignored.
The wattbike testing and stats should be ongoing and open and going round every club in the country.

spokeydokey

I don't think Leigh's perceived performance and tactics in a Ras years ago are very relevant to what he is doing with Irish cycling today anyway.