Dark side of the Marathon

rigal

Just started reading your log tunguska. It is fascinating stuff and you're only a week or so in!

Best of luck and looking forward to reading about the 30 milers!!

ecoli

tunguska wrote: »

ecoli wrote: »

What glycogen depletion? Youre making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. I know what glycogen depletion feels like (bonked on the bike many a time) and trust me, Im nowhere near that stage.

Sorry just unless you are taken a hell of alot of gels while on the runs ands carbs as reserves can be depleted usually between 15 an 20 miles so at thirty i would have thought that this would be a factor which must be looked at in terms of your training.

tunguska

ecoli wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

Sorry just unless you are taken a hell of alot of gels while on the runs ands carbs as reserves can be depleted usually between 15 an 20 miles so at thirty i would have thought that this would be a factor which must be looked at in terms of your training.

I dont take gels, I dont touch them. I read an article once (it was a while ago and I cant for the life of me remember what magazine it was from)and in it the guy, who was a marathon runner said that he never went near gels. His theory was that the body adapts. The more long runs you do the more efficient your body becomes at using what you have.
I have struggled on long runs before but its managable and never anything too heavy. The only time I ever hit the wall(on a run anyway) was last year in my first marathon, but there were no amount of gels that couldve done anything for that. It was a case of not having done the long runs and my body just wasnt efficient enough.
I know what your saying and it is a valid point, but I just think theres no need to become reliant upon gels etc. as the body adapts. Or I should say that my body seems to adapt, because as always, I can only speak for myself. And what works for one man doesnt work for another.

ecoli

tunguska wrote: »

ecoli wrote: »

I dont take gels, I dont touch them. I read an article once (it was a while ago and I cant for the life of me remember what magazine it was from)and in it the guy, who was a marathon runner said that he never went near gels. His theory was that the body adapts. The more long runs you do the more efficient your body becomes at using what you have.
I have struggled on long runs before but its managable and never anything too heavy. The only time I ever hit the wall(on a run anyway) was last year in my first marathon, but there were no amount of gels that couldve done anything for that. It was a case of not having done the long runs and my body just wasnt efficient enough.
I know what your saying and it is a valid point, but I just think theres no need to become reliant upon gels etc. as the body adapts. Or I should say that my body seems to adapt, because as always, I can only speak for myself. And what works for one man doesnt work for another.

I was just interested in your thoughts and if it works well then the best of luck with it you have managed to defy human physiology we all should be so lucky

shels4ever

tunguska wrote: »

ecoli wrote: »

I dont take gels, I dont touch them. I read an article once (it was a while ago and I cant for the life of me remember what magazine it was from)and in it the guy, who was a marathon runner said that he never went near gels. His theory was that the body adapts. The more long runs you do the more efficient your body becomes at using what you have.

Yep I based some of my training on that too didnt use gels for any long run last year, found it good , byut my plan was to use them come race day. What way do you deal with the race, do you jsut use sport drink?

nice read here
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/marathonlongrun.htm
no way near 30 miles I have to add ...

tunguska

shels4ever wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

Yep I based some of my training on that too didnt use gels for any long run last year, found it good , byut my plan was to use them come race day. What way do you deal with the race, do you jsut use sport drink?

nice read here
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/marathonlongrun.htm
no way near 30 miles I have to add ...

Yeah just sipped the sports drinks during the marathon, mostly just water though. The guy I train with doesnt even touch the sports drinks at all, never mind gels just water in a marathon, . And he's a 2:40 marathon man aswell.

tunguska

ecoli wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

I was just interested in your thoughts and if it works well then the best of luck with it you have managed to defy human physiology we all should be so lucky

I dont think thats the case at all ecoli, I havent done anything extraordinary or unique. Ive just gone with my inuition and that told me gels and the like arent necessary.

TheRoadRunner

Hey tunguska. You seem to be a lot of long runs very early in your program. Have you done this previously and if so did you ever find you suffered from fatigue mid program. Also would you have any concerns injury wise ? Biomechanically speaking I could not do many 20+ mile runs before a marathon. I see your log as a bit of an experiment so will be keeping an eye on it with interest and treating you as a human guinea pig

Regarding gels I don't take them myself and while the body can adapt to certain things surely additional carbohydrates during a race can only help. I take glucose tablets and sweets instead of gels and find them a huge help. I generally don't take much carbohydrates on board during training. The reason for you not taking gels on seems to be based on a single article, I could point you towards many opposing articles. I suppose it a personal thing again and in this regard I will again be looking at you as a human guinea pig

tunguska

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Hey tunguska. You seem to be a lot of long runs very early in your program. Have you done this previously and if so did you ever find you suffered from fatigue mid program. Also would you have any concerns injury wise ? Biomechanically speaking I could not do many 20+ mile runs before a marathon. I see your log as a bit of an experiment so will be keeping an eye on it with interest and treating you as a human guinea pig

Regarding gels I don't take them myself and while the body can adapt to certain things surely additional carbohydrates during a race can only help. I take glucose tablets and sweets instead of gels and find them a huge help. I generally don't take much carbohydrates on board during training. The reason for you not taking gels on seems to be based on a single article, I could point you towards many opposing articles. I suppose it a personal thing again and in this regard I will again be looking at you as a human guinea pig

Yeah youre right Roadrunner, this is highly experimental stuff, I admit that. But as I said before, Im using my own intuition to feel my way along the program. No problem with you using me as a human Guinea pig although I have to reiterate that what works for me may not work for everybody.

As for the early long runs and injury...........well injury is always a possibility but Im not going to live my life worried about what ifs or maybes. Im gonna try this out for myself and if I get injured I get injured. So be it, I'll deal with it if it happens. But again, I cant worry about what may or may not happen.

In regards to the gels, im not just basing my decision to knock them on the head simply because of just one article. Im going by conversations with experienced runners and also, again, my own intuition. Put it this way, when I was running the Dublin marathon this year I saw an awful lot of lads with those batman-like utility belts around their waists packed with gels, small containers and God knows what else. I did the marathon in 2:45 and there wasnt one of those boys anywhere to be seen. Everybody finishing around me had no belts or gels or anything. And Ive talked to a few of them since and confirmed that they didnt use gels in the marathon or during their training. So im not going to use them at all, and this is another reason for starting the long runs so early in the program. So that I give my body plenty of time to adapt and become more effiecient at using what it has.

village runner

tunguska wrote: »

In regards to the gels, im not just basing my decision to knock them on the head simply because of just one article. Im going by conversations with experienced runners and also, again, my own intuition. Put it this way, when I was running the Dublin marathon this year I saw an awful lot of lads with those batman-like utility belts around their waists packed with gels, small containers and God knows what else. I did the marathon in 2:45 and there wasnt one of those boys anywhere to be seen. Everybody finishing around me had no belts or gels or anything. And Ive talked to a few of them since and confirmed that they didnt use gels in the marathon or during their training. So im not going to use them at all, and this is another reason for starting the long runs so early in the program. So that I give my body plenty of time to adapt and become more effiecient at using what it has.

I agree that you dont need gels in dublin(in marathons i disagree unless you have someone handing you drinks). With Energiser as 8,12,15 and maqybe another one at 19 you could take a bottle at each station. The problem with other marathons the carb drinks standard is poor. In rotterdam with what they give you you may as well drink water. Berlin its no better. I got a carb drink at halfway and 35 km in berlin and had no reason to take a gel from 12 miles.

TheRoadRunner

tunguska wrote: »

Put it this way, when I was running the Dublin marathon this year I saw an awful lot of lads with those batman-like utility belts around their waists packed with gels, small containers and God knows what else. I did the marathon in 2:45 and there wasnt one of those boys anywhere to be seen. Everybody finishing around me had no belts or gels or anything.

Maybe the guys 15 minutes ahead of you used gels

Racing Flat

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Maybe the guys 15 minutes ahead of you used gels

I know some of the lads looking for around 2.20 had their prepepared carb drinks on tables waiting for them.

tunguska

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Maybe the guys 15 minutes ahead of you used gels

Its possible but I'll tell you this much, I was right beside the 2:30 lads at the start and not one had the utility belt thing going on;)

Sosa

tunguska wrote: »

Its possible but I'll tell you this much, I was right beside the 2:30 lads at the start and not one had the utility belt thing going on;)

I carried 5 gels for Dublin but you would not have known by looking at me,they were nicely pinned inside my shorts.
1 on each hip,2 in back pocket and i had another in an inside pocket.

tunguska

Sosa wrote: »

I carried 5 gels for Dublin but you would not have known by looking at me,they were nicely pinned inside my shorts.
1 on each hip,2 in back pocket and i had another in an inside pocket.

Alright lads enough about the gel issue please!!! If you want to take gels during races or training then thats your choice. And if they work for you, great. Im not getting dragged into a discussion or debate about the validity or merits of gel taking and I apologise for having done so already. That ends now though. Im not here to explain or justify what I do, this log is a record of my training and thats all, nothing more. If you want to ask a question about my training thats grand but again, Im not getting into debates that lead nowhere.
Cheers

Sosa

tunguska wrote: »

Alright lads enough about the gel issue please!!! If you want to take gels during races or training then thats your choice. And if they work for you, great. Im not getting dragged into a discussion or debate about the validity or merits of gel taking and I apologise for having done so already. That ends now though. Im not here to explain or justify what I do, this log is a record of my training and thats all, nothing more. If you want to ask a question about my training thats grand but again, Im not getting into debates that lead nowhere.
Cheers

Makes no odds to me if you use 10 gels or none,Tunguska
I was merely showing an example of how people carry gels.
I was not getting into a debate about it,just a comment.

village runner

tunguska wrote: »

Alright lads enough about the gel issue please!!! If you want to take gels during races or training then thats your choice. And if they work for you, great. Im not getting dragged into a discussion or debate about the validity or merits of gel taking and I apologise for having done so already. That ends now though. Im not here to explain or justify what I do, this log is a record of my training and thats all, nothing more. If you want to ask a question about my training thats grand but again, Im not getting into debates that lead nowhere.
Cheers

Going by the amount of views its getting people are interested in your log as am i. I am always interested in how better runners do it.
I have increased mileage to 70, long run every week so i have got alot out of your log. you are dead right to stick to your guns.

TheRoadRunner

Sosa wrote: »

Makes no odds to me if you use 10 gels or none,Tunguska
I was merely showing an example of how people carry gels.
I was not getting into a debate about it,just a comment.

+1. I'm more interested in seeing the impact (positive or negative) it will have on your results so log away.

tunguska

Thanks for the support and interest VR , Sosa and Roadrunner, I appreciate it lads. Im just not one for debates thats all, but I do understand where youre all coming from.

Anyway back to the business at hand.........

Monday 23rd November:

(1) 10.5 miles (am)

(2) 5 miles (pm)

plan was for 10.5 in the evening aswell but time constraints but an end to that. But its fine, still early days yet.

Tuesday 24th November:

Due to strikeage and the like I had to miss training that day(unfortunately I am a government employee). But like I said not too concerned as its early days and I'll just shift my day off from saturday to tuesday.

Wednesday 25th November:

Weather attrocious again so I had to hit my old friend the treadmill once more. But as always it was a good session. Ver tough

(1) 6 miles (am) treadmill interval session

(2) 10.5miles @ 7 mins per mile (pm)

Thursday 26th November:

Plan for the day is speed work on the track with the club and then 7 -10 miles later(or a game of 5-a-side, even though I really should stay away from the football, I cant!)

christeb

tunguska wrote: »

Plan for the day is speed work on the track with the club and then 7 -10 miles later(or a game of 5-a-side, even though I really should stay away from the football, I cant!)

Step AWAY from the astro! At my level I'm allowed the odd game , but for a someone like yourself, you're putting so much time and effort into your training, personally I wouldn't be anywhere near a pitch. Not worth the risk IMO

tunguska

christeb wrote: »

Step AWAY from the astro! At my level I'm allowed the odd game , but for a someone like yourself, you're putting so much time and effort into your training, personally I wouldn't be anywhere near a pitch. Not worth the risk IMO

Youre right of course Christeb, I mean I still cant bend my right leg back properly. But as you know the lure of football is a strong one.........and the games we have are so good. The lads take it very seriously, every game is like the European cup final.
On a side note I saw you bombing down exchequer street, tuesday, on a rented bike, in your slick looking work clobber. I was right behind you on the road bike. Those rental bikes are fierce handy though.

christeb

Does that mean I beat you in a commuter-race on a Dublinbike?!

tunguska

christeb wrote: »

Does that mean I beat you in a commuter-race on a Dublinbike?!

Yes you did, But in fairness you had a head start:)

ike

villagerunner has often mentioned this log to me and I've just read over it. Good stuff tunguska, really liking your no nonsense approach to the training, definately think people aiming for times like yours can learn a lot from what guys did back in the 80's. Even a middle of the pack runner like me can learn a lot from this. Best of luck I've just subscribed...!

aero2k

Hi tunguska,

I'm really enjoying the no-nonsense, no-compromise approach in this log. I can empathasise with your not wanting to have to defend your methods - that's one of the reasons I don't write a log. I've no problem talking about my training after the event, but I don't want to add another possible source of mental stress in the lead-up, so kudos to you for putting it out there.
I'm trying to increase my weekly mileage at the moment, throwing in some hill sessions, and I'll also be working up to some long runs relatively early in my prep (for Edinburgh 23 May), but the whole thing will be a lot less hard core than you. I may even have a gel or two...sh1t, did I say that out loud.....?!

tunguska

Thursday 26th November:

Training partner has a slight injury to his achilles so last nights planned track session with him turned into a tempo run for me and the Garmin. Good stuff though, first tempo since before the marathon.

10 miles @6:10/mile

On an unrelated matter, went to see a preview of "Paranormal activity" last night and I have to say it rattled me big time. Im not easily scared at all and theres only 3 or 4 films Ive seen in my entire life that have put the hook in me. But this got me. Even my mate, whos even less easily scared than me was looking a little pale after.

misty floyd

tunguska wrote: »

On an unrelated matter, went to see a preview of "Paranormal activity" last night and I have to say it rattled me big time. Im not easily scared at all and theres only 3 or 4 films Ive seen in my entire life that have put the hook in me. But this got me. Even my mate, whos even less easily scared than me was looking a little pale after.

Have you seen the new Coen brothers movie? Read a good review of it today and can't wait to see it. I just love their stuff. Might watch fargo again this weekend, its been so long.

Abhainn

tunguska wrote: »

Thursday 26th November:

Training partner has a slight injury to his achilles so last nights planned track session with him turned into a tempo run for me and the Garmin. Good stuff though, first tempo since before the marathon.

10 miles @6:10/mile

tunguska enjoying your log. Your training plan is definately a bit different than most.
I finished 2 mins behind you in Dublin but right now I don't think I could have kept with you in that tempo run

tunguska

misty floyd wrote: »

Have you seen the new Cohen brothers movie? Read a good review of it today and can't wait to see it. I just love their stuff. Might watch fargo again this weekend, its been so long.

No I havent seen it yet but I might go tomoorow night or sunday. Apparently its the Coen brothers in "the man who wasnt there" mode, which is fine by me.
Saw the men who star at goats aswell, disappointing. Although Jeff Bridges is brilliant in it and plays the closest thing to the dude since The big Lebowski. I know you hate it when people give away parts of a film but theres a scene where jeff bridges jumps off the roof of a house thinking his zen-like state will protect him from injury.......worth the price of admission alone. This is turning into a movie review log. Again, fine by me.

misty floyd

tunguska wrote: »

This is turning into a movie review log. Again, fine by me.

Rather talk about the use of Gels?

You probably watch movies these days whilst running on a threadmill? Savage training, fair play.