More insulation ??

quagmire123

Hi all, I'm new to boards, some great stuff on it.. I built a house approx 3 years ago and i put in 50mm kingspan insulation in a 100mm cavity. I was told at the time that this was plenty.. Was wondering if there are any benefits to pumping beads into remainder of cavity? Anyone done this or know of anyone that has? Are the benefits worth the outlay?

muffler

quagmire123 wrote: »

Hi all, I'm new to boards, some great stuff on it.. I built a house approx 3 years ago and i put in 50mm kingspan insulation in a 100mm cavity. Was wondering if there are any benefits to pumping beads into remainder of cavity? Anyone done this or know of anyone that has? Are the benefits worth the outlay?

I done this earlier in the year - used a bonded bead insulation - and there was a fantastic difference. Not only was the house warmer it was also practically draft free which was a problem I had prior to pumping the cavities.

Highly recommended and you can also get a grant from the SEI for it providing you upgrade the attic insulation also.

billy_beckham

We have the same, could you pm the name of the crowd you used?
Cheers..

stedeb

same here muffler any chance of the company and approx price 3 bed semi
thanks

muffler

PMs sent lads.

Poor Uncle Tom

popular, muffler is popular...:D

just pricing the same myself....:)

charlie40

Hi Muffler ,could you also pm me name of insulation beading crowd

muffler

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

popular, muffler is popular...:D

Jesus Im surprised. You're not supposed to be popular when you are a mod - usually I get called a nazi and the likes

Anyhow another couple of PMs on their way.

muffler

Forgot to say in the PM lads that "Gary" does have close contact with installers in other counties so he should be able to help one way or another. Id say they all have a franchise from the main supplier/manufacturer.

soldsold

Hi Muffler,

Just wondering if you know how compact/ bonded the bonded bead should be when pumped?

I had my bungalow pumped recently and the house is way warmer than last year.
I had to cut out a foot square section out or the external gable wall to put in an RSJ last week for my extension, and while the cavity was full of beads, they didnt seem overly packed, i would have expected them to be squeezed tightly into the space but they looked like they might look if you poured them in.

They were glued together, but again looked like they were barely being held together and the slightest touch made them fall apart.

Is this normal or was my installer being a bit cheap with the beads?

The reason for asking is that my extension will be ready for pumping soon and the installers price is very good, but I would prefer a good job more than a good price for the extension if I cant get both.

Maybe your man gary could answer if you are unsure?

Thanks!

Steve

muffler

soldsold, the beads should be reasonably well packed and bonded together. Because the beads are spherical they cant physically form a complete solid block.

Imagine laying a lot of ball bearings or marbles up tight to each other and ensuring that they all touch the bearings/marbles immediately beside them. There will be little gaps or air pockets which are necessary for expelling any moistness that would penetrate. In saying that the beads have to be lightly bonded together - just enough to ensure that they remain physically "locked" to each other.

If you think that there were excessive gaps between the beads or that they weren't properly bonded (takes very little to separate them btw) then you should mention this to the installer.

Let me know if you want me to PM the details of the installer I used.

quagmire123

Thanks for the info muffler. Will give him a call, cheers.

BUILDERSKY

the cavity wall was designed to have some important properties one of them is that the cavity is to take a condensation drop down and slip on dpc (wall ties have nose to let drops down in exact place)
now if you pomp insulation in then there's no room for it and drops are traveling in to the house.

and then if you are one of the poor guys who have internal insulation then water drops are staying in the wall to feed a fungus wich have a perfect conditions to grow nicely

ooops

No6

Does anybody know if there is any issue with pumping a wall with Kingspan polyeurthane as in the op. I know there is no problem with pumping a wall with polystyrene board already installed.

BUILDERSKY

polyuretan would have a better u-value becouse its like expanding foam, and polistyrene these are a loose boubles
ask supplyers to give You a u-value factor for 100 mils ticknes of each

soldsold

But polyurethane boards (or any other rigid boards) usually have big gaps between them, whereas pumped beads should fill the cavity.

Also leaving an open cavity outside the boards leads to thermal looping where the heat coming through the boards is swept away, leading to worse real life u values than the design u values

Poor Uncle Tom

I think what No.6 wants to know is:

Is there any problem, reaction wise, with pumping a cavity which already has partial fill polyeurthane as opposed to already having a partial fill polystyrene?

No6

Thanks uncle tom, I should have clarified that. Yes I do want to know is there any reaction between the materials, for example there can be a reaction between polystyrene and pvc coated cables.

BUILDERSKY

polistyren gets burn in 70 celcius so any overloaded cabel can damage it

quagmire123

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

the cavity wall was designed to have some important properties one of them is that the cavity is to take a condensation drop down and slip on dpc (wall ties have nose to let drops down in exact place)
now if you pomp insulation in then there's no room for it and drops are traveling in to the house.

and then if you are one of the poor guys who have internal insulation then water drops are staying in the wall to feed a fungus wich have a perfect conditions to grow nicely

ooops

Thanks buidersky, that's one of the concerns that i had. I've heard of lots of people filling the cavity completely, but i've heard no mention of repercussions such as dampness etc..

sinnerboy

the beads are spherical - so no matter how tightly pumped a continuous multi directional drainage system of drainage fissures exists to vertically drain water away before reaching the internal

typically the minimum cavity to be pumped is 50mm - to ensure a decent drainage system can be established

before using any product - ensure it is certified

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Agrement-Certification/Search-Agrements-Certificates.aspx

BUILDERSKY

sinnerboy wrote: »

the beads are spherical - so no matter how tightly pumped a continuous multi directional drainage system of drainage fissures exists to vertically drain water away before reaching the internal

typically the minimum cavity to be pumped is 50mm - to ensure a decent drainage system can be established

before using any product - ensure it is certified

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Agrement-Certification/Search-Agrements-Certificates.aspx

hmmmm. it's not really like that.
You can make a simple test:
put some water into a pot and position it on the floor hang 1 meter of bandage above and fit one end into a pot to reach water.

after few hours You'll see the water will travel all the way up


obviously water in cavity will be going down but also horizontaly

and if there is internal insulation that water will never breath out

so it is very easy to proov that beter would be to not insulate the wall at all then do it internaly
Regs.

sinnerboy

We are not talking about injecting bandages into the cavity

The beads don't absorb water but rather displace it into the cavities in between.

The water drains down not across

Now - to continue posting here - convince me you are not trolling

BUILDERSKY

there is no way J could convince You by posting on this forum becouse the knowledge to understand construction rules is to wide .
J tried to explain a simple way that pump in insulation itself does not help to the house, and can couse more damages then profits.
if You like to understand it You can start to learn about what is the thermal bridge, a dew point, a wall breathing, what is the cavity for and how it works,
and how to calculate a u-value for walls
then J will convince You easly.
Regards

muffler

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

there is no way J could convince You by posting on this forum becouse the knowledge to understand construction rules is to wide .
J tried to explain a simple way that pump in insulation itself does not help to the house, and can couse more damages then profits.
if You like to understand it You can start to learn about what is the thermal bridge, a dew point, a wall breathing, what is the cavity for and how it works,
and how to calculate a u-value for walls
then J will convince You easly.
Regards

Im having a little difficulty in understanding your post and the point you are trying to make. Are you saying that it is wrong to use a product that is guaranteed by the manufacturer and has been tested, approved and certified for use by the NSAI?

BUILDERSKY

the pump in insulation was designed to insulate a flat roof.
and now it helps to close cavity in standard wall when you do an external insulation.
what you mean certyfied and guaranteed???

polistyrene like product is certyfied for many diferent uses

but is it certyfied for cavity wall to work like en independent insulation system
no way.

BUILDERSKY

muffler wrote: »

Im having a little difficulty in understanding your post and the point you are trying to make. Are you saying that it is wrong to use a product that is guaranteed by the manufacturer and has been tested, approved and certified for use by the NSAI?

YES

Poor Uncle Tom

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

the pump in insulation was designed to insulate a flat roof.
and now it helps to close cavity in standard wall when you do an external insulation.

Pump in insulation will fill a cavity, not close it. Maybe that is what you mean. External insulation is totally different and does not encompass pumping. I wonder if you fully understand the concept.

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

what you mean certyfied and guaranteed???

This speaks volumes.
IAB or BBA certified materials and work methods?

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

polistyrene like product is certyfied for many diferent uses

but is it certyfied for cavity wall to work like en independent insulation system
no way.

http://www.premierinsulations.com/docs/IAB060168.pdf
please read up on your materials before you make sweeping statements like this again.

Take this as a formal warning.

Poor Uncle Tom

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

YES

Wrong answer, see above.

muffler

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

YES

Now then, how are you qualified to make this statement or would you prefer that we accept it as your own personal opinion rather than a factual statement? And just be advised that if you still claim that it is factual then you will have to post evidence here to back it up.

Im intrigued.

sydthebeat

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

the pump in insulation was designed to insulate a flat roof.
and now it helps to close cavity in standard wall when you do an external insulation.
what you mean certyfied and guaranteed???

polistyrene like product is certyfied for many diferent uses

but is it certyfied for cavity wall to work like en independent insulation system
no way.

there are so many things wrong with this post, it would waste my time to dissect it.

buildersky, either you do not fully understand this product or you have been grossly misinformed about it.

sinnerboy

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

there is no way J could convince You by posting on this forum becouse the knowledge to understand construction rules is to wide .
J tried to explain a simple way that pump in insulation itself does not help to the house, and can couse more damages then profits.
if You like to understand it You can start to learn about what is the thermal bridge, a dew point, a wall breathing, what is the cavity for and how it works,
and how to calculate a u-value for walls
then J will convince You easly.
Regards

Assume whatever you like about what i do or do not understand about cavity construction in general . In particular - explain please why you still contend that beads will permit moisture to cross the cavity .

BUILDERSKY

Dear Mods

Do not take me wrong Jm not here to teach You a building rules. All J wanted to do was just some advise how to do or what not to do to improve your or somebody else house. So You can use them or not.
Jm a qualified builder but Jve done my university abroad that probably would be not good enough for You.
J've aproove my skils in Passive House Institute (Germany) so J think J know a bit about a building.

If You belive that system shown and aprooved by IEB, Homebond, SEI etc. are good
then tell me why 80% of buildings are leaking, haveing cracks, drafts, dump, fungus, are cold,

In this job theres neve a simple answer how to fix a problem,

So please do not attack me any more. J cannot break a wall with my head.
good bye

Poor Uncle Tom

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

Dear Mods

Do not take me wrong Jm not here to teach You a building rules. All J wanted to do was just some advise how to do or what not to do to improve your or somebody else house. So You can use them or not.
Jm a qualified builder but Jve done my university abroad that probably would be not good enough for You.
J've aproove my skils in Passive House Institute (Germany) so J think J know a bit about a building.

Nobody here is taking you up wrong. It doesn't matter to me where you went to university. What you know about building remains to be seen, you certainly have not proven yourself or even given a good account of your knowledge of certified building materials or methods in this thread.

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

If You belive that system shown and aprooved by IEB, Homebond, SEI etc. are good
then tell me why 80% of buildings are leaking, haveing cracks, drafts, dump, fungus, are cold,

Broad sweeping untrue statements. Please link to your proof.

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

In this job theres neve a simple answer how to fix a problem,

Sometimes the answer is to do the job right from the start, that is why we have certified and approved materials and building methods.

BUILDERSKY wrote: »

So please do not attack me any more. J cannot break a wall with my head.
good bye

Asking you to qualify what you are saying is not attacking you and I'm not sure why you would want to break a wall with your head...:D

muffler

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

and I'm not sure why you would want to break a wall with your head...:D

Perhaps he has already done so and thus the substitution of the letter "I" by the letter "J"

sydthebeat

BUILDERSKY,

to be fair we have give you every opportunity to back up your claims... but you have failed to provide even 1 single piece of evidence. You can make all the gestures youd like, but without proof of knowledge they count for nothing.

regular users of the forum will recognise that the more senior members of teh forum have often highlighted the health risks involved with difference types of construction, and made suggestions of actions to take.

Questioning the validity of the certification of a product should be based on scientific proof, not hear-say.

oh, and the reasons irish building have been traditionally leaky and cold was based on other factors such as uneducated builders, inadequate regulation and a lack of building control. Thankfully the issues are being resolved at a very quick rate.

BUILDERSKY

muffler wrote: »

Perhaps he has already done so and thus the substitution of the letter "I" by the letter "J"

Thanks I'll take it

BUILDERSKY

Does anyone know what is a "dew point"? and how to lokate it

SB Edit

Then op query has been responded to in full

Buildersky - you may start another thread this one is locked now

sydthebeat

are you referring to a static or dynamic condensation risk analysis???

You should be informed that static "dew point" method of analysisis now out of date as it doesnt take into account the capillary moisture transport in the component, nor its sorption capacity, both of which reduce the risk of damage in case of condensation. Since the method only considers steady-state transport under heavily simplified boundary conditions, it cannot reproduce individual short-term events or allow for rain and solar radiation.

Therefore it is more precise, and now best practise, to use dynamic hygroscopic behaviour analysis.

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

are you referring to a static or dynamic condensation risk analysis???

You should be informed that static "dew point" method of analysisis now out of date as it doesnt take into account the capillary moisture transport in the component, nor its sorption capacity, both of which reduce the risk of damage in case of condensation. Since the method only considers steady-state transport under heavily simplified boundary conditions, it cannot reproduce individual short-term events or allow for rain and solar radiation.

Therefore it is more precise, and now best practise, to use dynamic hygroscopic behaviour analysis.

Thats over-simplifying the issue.

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

Thats over-simplifying the issue.

felt i had to 'dumb it down' a little