University & Religion

monosharp

Now this isn't just a 'christian' issue but 'here' its mostly a christian/catholic issue.

So I am starting my PhD soon and long story short, the University I have chosen requires me to participate in 'chapel class'.

Chapel Class = Going to church 2 times a week. Failure to attend results in me failing my course.

Now IF it was some sort of theology, philosophy etc classI wouldn't be too annoyed as I'm quite interested in that. This is 100% Church service.

Now I know I had a similar discussion with some of you a long time ago and the general attitude was 'private school private rules'.

So let me run the situation by you again.

In Korea you HAVE to go to 1 of the top 10 universities. If you don't forget about getting a good job.

So the top 10 Universities are mostly private Christian schools, a Catholic one a couple national ones (public) but one of these is not an option for most people for geographic reasons.

Anyways!

So if I want to go to one of these I have to go to 'chapel class'. If a Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic etc wants to go to these Universities they must go to 'chapel class'. There is no option.

Now I know your going to say 'fair enough, it is a private school' but look at this from another perspective.

Even though these schools are 'private' and technically students do have a choice, in reality they do not. They must go to one of these schools.

So I'm just looking for peoples opinions here, do you think this is 'fair' ?

P.S > The Buddhist private schools have a similar requirement but it actually consists of studying the history/philosophy behind it and taking a test,not actually attending ceremonies etc. And none of the Buddhist schools are really highly ranked so its not really an issue.

homer911

Christian Osmosis?

wolfsbane

monosharp wrote: »

Now this isn't just a 'christian' issue but 'here' its mostly a christian/catholic issue.

So I am starting my PhD soon and long story short, the University I have chosen requires me to participate in 'chapel class'.

Chapel Class = Going to church 2 times a week. Failure to attend results in me failing my course.

Now IF it was some sort of theology, philosophy etc classI wouldn't be too annoyed as I'm quite interested in that. This is 100% Church service.

Now I know I had a similar discussion with some of you a long time ago and the general attitude was 'private school private rules'.

So let me run the situation by you again.

In Korea you HAVE to go to 1 of the top 10 universities. If you don't forget about getting a good job.

So the top 10 Universities are mostly private Christian schools, a Catholic one a couple national ones (public) but one of these is not an option for most people for geographic reasons.

Anyways!

So if I want to go to one of these I have to go to 'chapel class'. If a Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic etc wants to go to these Universities they must go to 'chapel class'. There is no option.

Now I know your going to say 'fair enough, it is a private school' but look at this from another perspective.

Even though these schools are 'private' and technically students do have a choice, in reality they do not. They must go to one of these schools.

So I'm just looking for peoples opinions here, do you think this is 'fair' ?

P.S > The Buddhist private schools have a similar requirement but it actually consists of studying the history/philosophy behind it and taking a test,not actually attending ceremonies etc. And none of the Buddhist schools are really highly ranked so its not really an issue.

I sympathise with your dilemma, but I think it still comes to the private school, private rules. You are experiencing one of the disabilities of non-conformity.

Putting myself in your shoes, I would ask if attending the class entailed participation in the worship. If it did, and I could not do so in good conscience, then I would go elsewhere or forego university. That is a choice many Non-Conformist Christians like myself had to make in the past.

PDN

They are, as you said, private schools. And it would appear, also from what you said, that the top schools are all run by Christian organisations. If I were you I would be jolly grateful that they allow an unbeliever such as yourself to piggyback on their academic excellence in order to gain a degree that derives its very worth from their high standards and reputation.

philologos

IMO, yes it is fair. If you are studying at a private university with a Christian ethos, and if they require this, that's pretty much it.

Stercus Accidit

PDN wrote: »

They are, as you said, private schools. And it would appear, also from what you said, that the top schools are all run by Christian organisations. If I were you I would be jolly grateful that they allow an unbeliever such as yourself to piggyback on their academic excellence in order to gain a degree that derives its very worth from their high standards and reputation.

By allow an unbeliever you surely mean force them to comply with their religion. There is no respect here for the OP's non believer status.

And regarding the piggyback comment, I am sure it is the hard work of the OP at the school that will be reflected in his qualification, not just having attended the school or complied with its rules.


Its a pity that you have to do this OP, but if you have no choice, remember it is all just empty ceremony, hassle none the less but no reflection on your principles.

mark renton

PDN wrote: »

If I were you I would be jolly grateful that they allow an unbeliever such as yourself to piggyback on their academic excellence in order to gain a degree that derives its very worth from their high standards and reputation.

how do you get away with it PDN? :rolleyes:

philologos

Stercus Accidit: If you choose to go to a Christian ethos based school or university, you are also choosing to accept anything that results from that ethos in turn. Otherwise you should go to a secular university. Relatively simple I would have thought.

The OP wants the prestige of the degree, but the ethos is a part of the package. As PDN said if one wants to piggyback on this prestige, one should accept the standards of the university.

Stercus Accidit

Jakkass wrote: »

Stercus Accidit: If you choose to go to a Christian ethos based school or university, you are also choosing to accept anything that results from that ethos in turn. Otherwise you should go to a secular university. Relatively simple I would have thought.

The OP wants the prestige of the degree, but the ethos is a part of the package. As PDN said if one wants to piggyback on this prestige, one should accept the standards of the university.

In an ideal world, someone's level of education should not be dependant in any way on what religion they were born into, converted to or lack there of. Now the ideal world argument is moot, it isnt an ideal world, I'll accept that for now and address a second point.

Why is it in the interests of this school to allow a non-believer to attend, and then force them to further attend events that would only benefit a believer?

Effectively, non-believers are not respected, or allowed attend the school, as they go through the same religious ceremonies everyone else who is a believer does.


It is the power of the churches in the past that allowed them to gain such a foothold in education, today, religion should play no part in ones access to education, or be denied the best qualifications if they do not comply, regardless of intelligence or dedication. That the church still controls some better schools is an unfortunate throwback to this era, forcing compliance with religious ceremony on a non-believer, is of no benefit to anyone.

philologos

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

In an ideal world, someone's level of education should not be dependant in any way on what religion they were born into, converted to or lack there of. Now the ideal world argument is moot, it isnt an ideal world, I'll accept that for now and address a second point.

The education this university provides isn't dependant on what religion people are. They can be non-believers, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and so on. However, if you go to a Christian university or school, you should be willing to respect the fact that the Gospel will be professed, and that they may have requirements in respect to attending services and so on.

The idea is that students will not just receive an education, but a Christian education, and a chance to form faith.

If you do not want a Christian education, go to a secular university. Simple as.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Why is it in the interests of this school to allow a non-believer to attend, and then force them to further attend events that would only benefit a believer?

I assume it's for evangelistic purposes.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Effectively, non-believers are not respected, or allowed attend the school, as they go through the same religious mumbo jumbo everyone else who believes in it does.

How aren't they. They are welcomed to be educated at the university as long as they respect the requirements and ethos of the university. If people aren't willing to do that they should seek out a secular education.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

It is the power of the churches in the past that allowed them to gain such a foothold in education, today, religion should play no part in ones access to education, or be denied the best qualifications if they do not comply, regardless of intelligence or dedication. That the church still controls some better schools is an unfortunate throwback to this era, forcing compliance with religious ceremony on a non-believer, is of no benefit to anyone.

One could argue that it is power. One could argue that it is passion for what they believe that has pioneered this growth. The latter is more probable in my opinion given the growth of the Christian faith in South Korea in the last century.

Stercus Accidit

My point is pretty simple, while it may be traditional to attend services, and may be important and enjoyable to the believers of that religion, to accept non-believers and other faiths and force this on them is not of any benefit.

While the school may have the power to impose religion, I see no good reason that it should. Tradition is a nice word for habit, nothing more, actions and rules need good reason, not simply precedent.

The school should respect other beliefs, and allow them not to attend their specific religious ceremonys. It would mean that the believers in the school would have more credibility and more respect for their own faith as it is practised by choice, and those who do not practice would surely respect that policy more also. Mandatory faith isn't really faith at all, and a school that imposes that sort of authoritarian religion has no respect in my eyes as either progressive or modern.

Can and should are two different things when it comes to applying policies like this. Why be open to accept applications from those of other faiths at all?

philologos

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

My point is pretty simple, while it may be traditional to attend services, and may be important and enjoyable to the believers of that religion, to accept non-believers and other faiths and force this on them is not of any benefit.

It depends of what you mean by not of any benefit. The only purpose I can think of this policy is that it is evangelistic. If it is evangelistic, it is clear that the people involved in such a policy think that accepting faith is hugely beneficial in anyones life.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

While the school may have the power to impose religion, I see no good reason that it should. Tradition is a nice word for habit, nothing more, actions and rules need good reason, not simply precedent.

I think they should if they are to maintain the university as a Christian university rather than a secular one.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

The school should respect other beliefs, and allow them not to attend their specific religious ceremonys. It would mean that the believers in the school would have more credibility and more respect for their own faith as it is practised by choice, and those who do not practice would surely respect that policy more also. Mandatory faith isn't really faith at all, and a school that imposes that sort of authoritarian religion has no respect in my eyes as either progressive or modern.

Faith isn't mandatory. Attendance of Christian services is. One can sit through Christian chapel, and not believe an ounce of it.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Can and should are two different things when it comes to applying policies like this. Why be open to accept applications from those of other faiths at all?

They are separate, but in this case they happen to coincide.

Why would a university refuse applications? Particularly, it would seem rather unchristian not to accept applications to a Christian university.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

They are, as you said, private schools. And it would appear, also from what you said, that the top schools are all run by Christian organisations. If I were you I would be jolly grateful that they allow an unbeliever such as yourself to piggyback on their academic excellence in order to gain a degree that derives its very worth from their high standards and reputation.

That made me laugh.

Anyway, while I do feel sympathy for people in such situations, it's their club and their rules. With this in mind, I just don't see where the problem is if a University chooses to adhere to a foundational doctrine. It seems that the real problem lies in the dearth of alternative educational institutions.

I feel that this thread could stray into the territory of the mindset "how dare you impose you views on me" while all along skimming over the fact that they are doing the exact same thing.

monosharp

wolfsbane wrote: »

I sympathise with your dilemma, but I think it still comes to the private school, private rules. You are experiencing one of the disabilities of non-conformity.

Putting myself in your shoes, I would ask if attending the class entailed participation in the worship. If it did, and I could not do so in good conscience, then I would go elsewhere or forego university. That is a choice many Non-Conformist Christians like myself had to make in the past.

Ok its probably my fault for the misunderstanding so let me try and be clear.

I don't particularly care from my perspective, I care for the people here who have no other choice.

Your talking about religious reasons when a persons actual livelihood actually depends on where their degree comes from.

These people have no choice, they 'have' to go to one of these top Universities. Its necessary for life.

Not going to University in Ireland still leaves you plenty of options, not going to University in Korea leaves you almost no options.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

They are, as you said, private schools. And it would appear, also from what you said, that the top schools are all run by Christian organisations.

Almost all of them are.

If I were you I would be jolly grateful that they allow an unbeliever such as yourself to piggyback on their academic excellence in order to gain a degree that derives its very worth from their high standards and reputation.

Yeah. Honestly PDN thats the first thing you've ever said that has actually made me angry and disgusted me.

The top universities here are Christian because of historical reasons, not because of academic excellence. Rich American (Korean American) Christians started these schools with money. It had nothing to do with academic excellence.

Once they were started they were the only Universities here and hence gained popularity and prestige. When the ordinary Korean people could afford to start Universities such as non-secular or other religions (Buddhist) the Christian private schools were already established and an established position is extremely difficult to overcome.

The top Universities are the top because the best Students go to them. The best students go to them because they are the top Universities. And on and on.

If it were the other way around, if the top Universities were Muslim and in order to attend students would have to participate in Muslim prayer/ceremony I'm sure you would not be taking this attitude.

Perhaps you could do with reading about freedom of religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion

monosharp

Jakkass wrote: »

The education this university provides isn't dependant on what religion people are. They can be non-believers, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and so on.

Until very recently that was not true. They needed to 'prove' themselves to be practicing Christians.

This involved bribing a 'Christian' pastor to sign a letter saying you attended his church since childhood.

Very Christian, very religious.

The idea is that students will not just receive an education, but a Christian education, and a chance to form faith.

And if they don't want to ?

There is NO choice here. I don't know what you don't understand about that. They HAVE to go to one of the top Universities. They can't 'choose' a secular University if they want a decent job.

If you do not want a Christian education, go to a secular university. Simple as.

No its not simple as. Most companies here will NOT hire people who go to Universities not in the top 5 or 10. They won't even look at your resume.

You are thinking of this from a European perspective where there is choice, these people have no choice.

One could argue that it is power. One could argue that it is passion for what they believe that has pioneered this growth. The latter is more probable in my opinion given the growth of the Christian faith in South Korea in the last century.

You mean the forced indoctrination of people.

Universities here used not to accept non-Christian students and they still try to indoctrinate students.

There are companies here who refuse to hire non-Christians (although in fairness there are a couple of Buddhist companies who do the same), is that ok in your opinion ? On your resume you HAVE to tell them your religion, marital status, age, photo, medical history,weight,height etc.

Pastors here tell people not to marry outside their church. And this is ONLY true for the Christians here, not the catholics, not the Buddhists, not even the muslims AFAIK. Some of these people actually tell their 'flock' not to associate with non-Christians.

There are Mormons (ok not really christian but ..) running round this country offering 'free English classes' to people if they only come to their church.

Universities refuse to hire non-Christian professors.

Yeah Christianity really took off in South Korea. You should be so proud.

monosharp

Jakkass wrote: »

Faith isn't mandatory. Attendance of Christian services is. One can sit through Christian chapel, and not believe an ounce of it.

If one is Muslim one will get ones head chopped off if one did that regardless of ones faith or lack thereof.

Why would a university refuse applications? Particularly, it would seem rather unchristian not to accept applications to a Christian university.

So a few years ago when they DID refuse non-Christians entry to their University they weren't really Christian ?

philologos

monosharp: It isn't the university's fault that it happens that they happen to be in the top 10.

Mind you on reading up on the subject Seoul National University is top at the minute and as far as I know it is a secular university. The national universities comprise most of the list, so I'm not convinced of your argument.

monosharp wrote:

If one is Muslim one will get ones head chopped off if one did that regardless of ones faith or lack thereof.

Again, that isn't the fault of the Christian university, rather the fault of the draconian measures that some Islamic extremists will employ.

You don't seem to be particularly interested in peoples responses, but rather you just want to vent so it seems

monosharp

Jakkass wrote: »

monosharp: It isn't the university's fault that it happens that they happen to be in the top 10.

I didn't say its their fault.

I think they shouldn't force students to attend religious preaching services when they are A) not religious or members of a different faith.

Mind you on reading up on the subject Seoul National University is top at the minute and as far as I know it is a secular university. The national universities comprise most of the list, so I'm not convinced of your argument.

What list were you reading ? The world rankings ?

1 서울대(서울) - National University, Secular
2 카이스트(대전) - Secular but not in Seoul. Also only #2 for certain departments. (Engineering etc)
3 포항공대(경북) - Not in Seoul (but yes highly ranked worldwide)
4 고려대(서울) Secular, good University.
5 연세대(서울) Christian
6 서강대(서울) Catholic

Universities outside Seoul except for 카이스트 (KAIST) are not recongised by companies as in the same league as Universities in Seoul regardless of what the world rankings say.

If the company your going for's boss went to University A, he will prefer to hire people from University A.

wikipedia wrote:

SKY (Korean language: 스카이) is an acronym for one of the most prestigious universities' group in South Korea: Seoul National University, Korea University, and Yonsei University.[1] The term is widely used nationwide in Korea, in the Korean broadcast media and even by the universities themselves. Even though, it is not an official organization in South Korea.
Regardless of the academic standing of the SKY universities internationally, inside Korea, admission to one of them is widely considered as determining one's career and social status.[4][5] Many Korean politicians and policy makers have a degree from a SKY university. The President's cabinet is usually filled with SKY graduates (predominantly from Seoul National University). Likewise, the judicial world in South Korea is dominated by SKY graduates. According to the statistics, 80% of judges appointed from 2003 to 2008, were SKY graduates. During the same time, 70% of prosecuters appointed were SKY graduates.[6]

Yes in fairness only one of these is Christian and there are exceptions. KAIST for example is outside Seoul and held very highly for certain things, i.e > Engineering/Science. The best medical University (Catholic) to go to is also very far down the list for other things.

But all this is not the point.

The point is that if you get an offer from one of the above 3 (or other top 10) you grab it with all your strength and don't let go because its your future, its your career, its your life.

'Choosing' your University is for the rich.

So while there are secular Universities which I never said there weren't, getting an offer from any of the top 10 is a dream come true and cannot be turned down.

Again, Students who are not Christian are been forced into Christian services. I maintain that this is wrong, it should be a choice and in most societies it is a choice, but not here.

Again, that isn't the fault of the Christian university, rather the fault of the draconian measures that some Islamic extremists will employ.

No its not but they don't need to force people into religious services using draconian measures either.

Honestly don't you think it does more damage then good to your religion ? forcing people like this ?

You don't seem to be particularly interested in peoples responses, but rather you just want to vent so it seems

I am interested. I just can't understand it.

The same people here defending this will be the first ones to speak of religious freedom in China/Iran etc.

You may not see it as 'force' but thats exactly what it is. These students have no choice.

Fanny Cradock

This thread is now locked. I'm not quite sure what monosharp wants from this thread, but given the responses so far, I don't think anyone will be satisfied by the outcome.