I have a question for the mod's

tomED

The Corinthian wrote: »

I do not have the time to babysit a bunch of overgrown kids who want to libel each other. Neither do any other moderators or the admins, I suspect.

And nor should you have to!

The Corinthian wrote: »

If I felt that people could generally behave I would agree with the board's reopening, however from what I have read here, I'd have my doubts and could see it devolving within a week.

Damn, for once I'm actually agreeing with a mod.... :P

Seriously though, I think this thread shows exactly why the hosting forum should stay closed for the forseeable future...

Although I would love it to be back open, this thread clearly shows that we still have a long way to go before it's safe to do so.

HandWS LTD

tomED wrote: »

And nor should you have to!



Damn, for once I'm actually agreeing with a mod.... :P

Seriously though, I think this thread shows exactly why the hosting forum should stay closed for the forseeable future...

Although I would love it to be back open, this thread clearly shows that we still have a long way to go before it's safe to do so.

Ok...you were for it before you saw that tweet. I explained it....mistake. Would you have still been for it, if that didn't happen? Most forums abroad have made it work. Why not boards.ie? They can be better. The past is over. Things died down. Now its a chance to bring it back and HOPEFULLY its good and works. Plus it will be good and easier for the users to find the correct info.

tomED

HandWS LTD wrote: »

Ok...you were for it before you saw that tweet. I explained it....mistake. Would you have still been for it, if that didn't happen? Most forums abroad have made it work. Why not boards.ie? They can be better. The past is over. Things died down. Now its a chance to bring it back and HOPEFULLY its good and works. Plus it will be good and easier for the users to find the correct info.

I still am for it - but as I said, this thread (not only your tweet) shows that this topic ruffles a lot of peoples feathers with even the slightest mention of "hosting".

Makes sense not to reopen what is still clearly a sore subject for some people.

The Corinthian

HandWS LTD wrote: »

Fair point....it may be tough to start with but you have the power to ban them.

I think you missed the bit about not wanting to spend 24/7 moderating such a board.

If it starts bad then it will eventually calm down.

Last time is started bad and got worse. Why would it be different this time?

Try a trial. Doubts are part of everything, but you'll never know until you try.

We did. It failed.

However, that was some time ago, which is why I am keeping my own mind open to this. Given this, what I have read here and associated with this thread does not fill me with a warm fuzzy feeling. Admins call, TBH, although if we were to do a trial, I would not end it quickly - none of this 'wait for it to calm down' malarky.

HandWS LTD

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think you missed the bit about not wanting to spend 24/7 moderating such a board.

Last time is started bad and got worse. Why would it be different this time?

We did. It failed.

However, that was some time ago, which is why I am keeping my own mind open to this. Given this, what I have read here and associated with this thread does not fill me with a warm fuzzy feeling. Admins call, TBH, although if we were to do a trial, I would not end it quickly - none of this 'wait for it to calm down' malarky.

Oh, i see. You did try a trial. May i ask how long ago this was? 2003 or 2004? thats a good bit back and only a year or 2 after it was first put down. I'm not saying 24/7....is there a way that you can block all web hosting companies after a certain time...so it won't be 24/7..... Nice thought. Surely you can come up with something. I'd be willing to help.

The Corinthian

HandWS LTD wrote: »

I'd be willing to help.

How about you offer to underwrite all future libel damages? That would make things a lot easier for the mods/admins.

aidan_walsh

As the mod of the Design forum, sorry for only getting to this now. I haven't had a chance to check boards much in the last few days, work has been pretty hectic.

Hosting discussion is banned on the forum because of exactly the type of stuff that has been posted above. I wasn't a mod before the blanket ban was introduced, but I do recall how it was before that point. Simply, it was horrific. Recommendations would lead to arguments, accusations and/or FUD and misinformation, reverting to outright childishness on many occasions.

For a long time, any hosting discussion was banned. Now, I allow high level discussion along the lines of "what do I need to" for the likes of system requirements for installing and evaluating software packages. To this end, I believe that posters have plenty of room to get the answers they need to the questions they have without needing to go into company or package specifics.

Any issues where it starts to get specific to a host, I will refer the customer to their hosting provider. Recommendations for hosts (and by extension registrars, as they are often times one and the same) is still and will remain to be banned.

We do have the list of hosts available in the forum. It is an old thread, it has been running a while. However, as the post outlines I am always accepting submissions for it. HandWS himself asked to be added to it not moments after decrying it, and has indeed been added. The last edit made to it was today to update a hosts information.

This thread runs on a basis of open invitation - if you want in, PM me. Its not my job to go tracking down all the hosts operating out of Ireland.

tomED wrote:

Personally I think it would be better to open the discussions again without "pimping". Anyone caught pimping should be banned full stop.

HandsWS wrote:

This is why i have asked for consideration in opening it again and HAVE stricter rules on pimping.

Unfortunately, often times the posts that were causing problems didn't come just from other hosts but from their customers or former customers as well.

As for pimping, the rules are already as strict as they can get on it - Don't do it. I have and do ban posters for doing so, and despite the threads pointing out the ban, it happens regardless. I don't see what can change other than making potentially more work for myself by allowing the discussion again.

tomED wrote:

If you look at a lot of the threads that are started, generally it's a lot of people that hardly even know they need hosting - there's a clear need for answers to questions relating to hosting.

Again, as I have said above I do allow high level "what do I need" questions, but anything specific to a host or asking for recommendations for a host will not be permitted. For specific questions, the host is the best source of information.

HandWS wrote:

Lets see if the other hosting companies on the forums will stand by that. This is a BIG ask after what happened years ago.

Other than this point I will not be addressing what was discussed further up the thread, but this and other posts that I have seen elsewhere suggest to me that it won't be possible.

mneylon

I was actively involved with the hosting forum when it was open. I probably contributed to it being shut (as did everyone else)

Personally I can't see any valid reason for reopening it as it will become a mess very quickly

If people ask "general" questions about hosting on "related" fora and don't get into specifics with particular providers the moderators will allow it

The Irish hosting / domain business sector is tiny. Most of the major players have histories with each other - and not all of it is very positive.

It's kind of amusing in some respects. If you go to an ICANN meeting GoDaddy, Enom, Network Solutions and all the others get along very well together.

CoNfOuNd

It would be nice if webhosting discussion could be re-opened, but it is probably unrealistic unless all the webhosts who use it agree to a strict set of rules.

My own suggestion would be to expand the 'Where to get hosting' thread, so that in addition to listing the webhosts and webhosting directories, it could include more details about each webhost. In other words, each webhost could have a few lines where they could outline their amazing features and cheapest package, and people could continue to be directed to this thread. Thoughts?

HandWS LTD

The Corinthian wrote: »

How about you offer to underwrite all future libel damages? That would make things a lot easier for the mods/admins.

What do you mean exactly? We look after it full time? If you are asking me to become a mod.....then maybe.

I'm trying to give solutions to help it open....there are lots of ways that this can work But as Adrian and Blacknight and the other Mod's pointed out about the past....i do understand that what went on was terrible and opening it again may not happen. If there is a tiny chance, even when some people or mod's think that maybe it won't be as bad now....then more restrictions should be involved (i'm obviously repeating myself). I could be totally wrong there that it will not work at all.

Even i have been ask in the last few yrs where a suitable place for irish web hosting information is, as boards.ie did not offer much information. Now, this is causing alot of people to look elsewhere. So obviously boards.ie would want to be the best and want people to say that they found the information on their boards and not elsewhere.

2 of the points i mentioned should help if they haven't been used before. BLOCK ALL web hosting companies after a certain time (including official representatives) from the web hosting category e.g 6pm. And when a users asks about some hosting companies or recommendation for a hosting company to go with, then ONLY the mods can reply. Some ways to stop the pimping going on. Are the developers of boards.ie able to develop something like that?

A 3rd solution is that any post written to the web host forum will not be visable until it is viewed by a mod to be acceptable for the forum. They can only communicate with mods if not suitable and the mod's prob don't have to reply for a couple of days or so when they are free. If suitable then the other 2 points above comes into play or something like that. Does that make it easier?

HandWS LTD

CoNfOuNd wrote: »

It would be nice if webhosting discussion could be re-opened, but it is probably unrealistic unless all the webhosts who use it agree to a strict set of rules.

My own suggestion would be to expand the 'Where to get hosting' thread, so that in addition to listing the webhosts and webhosting directories, it could include more details about each webhost. In other words, each webhost could have a few lines where they could outline their amazing features and cheapest package, and people could continue to be directed to this thread. Thoughts?

Not a bad idea......the more ideas they get the more helpful it will become.

Gordon

HandWS LTD wrote: »

It may cause extra work....just like that tweet was found. But won't that make boards.ie better if the web hosting was opened.

No, it would be more work and there would be MUCH more noise as opposed to signal. The mods have got a tough enough job as it is without grown adults resorting to petty childishness. We have learned from our mistakes in the years we, as a site, have grown, and limiting web hosting specifics is one of those benefits we have gained.

aidan_walsh has given a decent middle ground to the web hosters, any more leniency and problems will start to happen. We're still open to suggestions of course, but I can't possibly think of a solution to stop the hosting squabbles, if it's a case of 'try it out' 'trust us just one last time' then I'd say no, sorry, been there, done that.

HandWS LTD

Gordon wrote: »

No, it would be more work and there would be MUCH more noise as opposed to signal. The mods have got a tough enough job as it is without grown adults resorting to petty childishness. We have learned from our mistakes in the years we, as a site, have grown, and limiting web hosting specifics is one of those benefits we have gained.

aidan_walsh has given a decent middle ground to the web hosters, any more leniency and problems will start to happen. We're still open to suggestions of course, but I can't possibly think of a solution to stop the hosting squabbles, if it's a case of 'try it out' 'trust us just one last time' then I'd say no, sorry, been there, done that.

I understand. I hate the bad stuff and sure hope it doesn't happen again. What do you think of the points mentioned that could help, like TomED's(about pimping), CoNfOuNd's and mine after his. They may be better ways in controlling it and limiting it BUT not opening it fully.

Gordon

HandWS LTD wrote: »

I understand. I hate the bad stuff and sure hope it doesn't happen again. What do you think of the points mentioned that could help, like TomED's(about pimping)

More work for mods and the errant users will find more cryptic and hidden ways of pimping by stretching and pushing the limits of acceptability.

CoNfOuNd's and mine after his.

The bit about stricter rules? Stricter rules means heavier moderation means more time spent modding. Why should mods have to spend more time if people can't play by the rules as it is? Why is it the mods' fault?

As for confounds idea about opening up the sticky to allow more info on hosts? I'll trust aidan's view on that for the forum. My own personal view is - why does it matter? All you are trying to do by allowing discussion on hosting is apparently to let the end user know more about a company, understand why they should go with the company, what is good and bad about the company. What then would they learn from a marketed blurb? A blurb geared towards getting business, when instead they should be doing their own research, considering we allow minimal discussion and they can't do it here. My personal vote would be no, as it's in the users best interest.

HandWS LTD

Gordon wrote: »

More work for mods and the errant users will find more cryptic and hidden ways of pimping by stretching and pushing the limits of acceptability.

The bit about stricter rules? Stricter rules means heavier moderation means more time spent modding. Why should mods have to spend more time if people can't play by the rules as it is? Why is it the mods' fault?

As for confounds idea about opening up the sticky to allow more info on hosts? I'll trust aidan's view on that for the forum. My own personal view is - why does it matter? All you are trying to do by allowing discussion on hosting is apparently to let the end user know more about a company, understand why they should go with the company, what is good and bad about the company. What then would they learn from a marketed blurb? A blurb geared towards getting business, when instead they should be doing their own research, considering we allow minimal discussion and they can't do it here. My personal vote would be no, as it's in the users best interest.

Nobody is going to complain that its the mod's faults. If all msg's can not become visable until validated by the mods. Not more work...they log on read message, activate for the forum or answer themselves. That way nobody will see any of the messages that ye may feel may affect the forum. OR put the conditions on the web hosts themselves so ye can read their messages and activate them or not.

link8r from a different thread did mention...that maybe you could add a newbie thread so that the responses are better organised? I do not know how that would work but the more ideas here the better.

Overheal

HandWS LTD wrote: »

Nobody is going to complain that its the mod's faults. If all msg's can not become visable until validated by the mods. Not more work...they log on read message, activate for the forum or answer themselves. That way nobody will see any of the messages that ye may feel may affect the forum. OR put the conditions on the web hosts themselves so ye can read their messages and activate them or not.

Pre-moderation of posts is a feature of Personal Issues as it is. I have no idea what goes on back behind the curtain but I can tell you PI taken at reader/face value is not a forum that requires the work of ten of the site's best moderators to handle. Fact is 99% of the work is probably the pre-approval of all unregistered/anonymous posts in it. Tack on 30% for the volume of "Why hasnt my post shown up yet?" posts.

Im not sure you understand that, what you are suggesting, would be making an absolute mountain of work for anyone silly enough to agree to moderate such a discussion board.

Im also not sure you appreciate how much work youre asking of the site administrators and developers by asking for a timeshare option either: as far as I am aware that is simply not a feature available on Boards or V-Bulletin, and one would have to be created Ad-Hoc. Really, really low on the list of priorities, tbh.

HandWS LTD

Overheal wrote: »

Pre-moderation of posts is a feature of Personal Issues as it is. I have no idea what goes on back behind the curtain but I can tell you PI taken at reader/face value is not a forum that requires the work of ten of the site's best moderators to handle. Fact is 99% of the work is probably the pre-approval of all unregistered/anonymous posts in it. Tack on 30% for the volume of "Why hasnt my post shown up yet?" posts.

Im not sure you understand that, what you are suggesting, would be making an absolute mountain of work for anyone silly enough to agree to moderate such a discussion board.

Im also not sure you appreciate how much work youre asking of the site administrators and developers by asking for a timeshare option either: as far as I am aware that is simply not a feature available on Boards or V-Bulletin, and one would have to be created Ad-Hoc. Really, really low on the list of priorities, tbh.

I understand, i really do....that is why i think they need to add new features. Every site needs to be updated with new features. I'm not saying they don't add new features......i'm sure they do. As i have previously explained it can be alot of work but there's always a way with everything to make it work. Nothing is IMPOSSIBLE in the world of web development.

As i am throwing all ideas in here to try and help to make it work.....and hopefully do NOT add any more work load to the mods. Maybe have what i explained by putting an automatic WATCH with msg waiting to be activated on the newly registered users to try and stop this. Plus adding the same WATCH to anybody who started to say bad things or pimping on the web hosting forum and delete their posts. This way people can stop what they did in the past. But once that is out of the way......life may be easier and better for boards.ie. As the past is well in the past.

forbairt

Personally against hosting being reopened.

I think the Where / What post could be updated with extra details such as what type of panels they are running as well as a rough guide to what people really need from their webhost (how many databases .. what type ... how much space and bandwidth is required .. and so on)

I'd be against the webhosts being allowed to add a personal note to their listing. They mostly offer the same things so then it becomes a case of who writes gooder

Every thread on hosting I've ever seen on here has quickly devolved into some kind of caveman style argument where you can see them bashing the potential client over the head and dragging them off by the hair

As such the potential customer suddenly gets very confused probably finds it all very childish and goes looking at US hosts.

What might work in my mind would be recommendations by people with X posts (more senior people in the web dev / design forums) of the various Irish Hosts. Again this may not work out for newer hosting companies but generally people are looking for recommendations of hosting companies from designers / developers based on their personal experience .. any thoughts on that?

Cabaal

Darragh wrote: »

HandWSLtd,

If we allow this discussion, would you be happy to participate if we removed all of the links in your username and signature?

The twitter post in question would be of major concern, but I'd think that IF such a forum was re-opened then no sigs allowed and outright bans for anyone acting the muppet

However this suggestion....

HandWS LTD wrote: »

Nobody is going to complain that its the mod's faults. If all msg's can not become visable until validated by the mods. Not more work...they log on read message, activate for the forum or answer themselves. That way nobody will see any of the messages that ye may feel may affect the forum. OR put the conditions on the web hosts themselves so ye can read their messages and activate them or not.
.

Is insane, pre-moderation of all posts made in the forum, there's far too much work involved in that for any benefits given. In short its not worth the work put in by people that just don't get paid to deal with such crap.

mneylon

HandWS LTD wrote: »

Nobody is going to complain that its the mod's faults. If all msg's can not become visable until validated by the mods. Not more work...they log on read message, activate for the forum or answer themselves. That way nobody will see any of the messages that ye may feel may affect the forum. OR put the conditions on the web hosts themselves so ye can read their messages and activate them or not.

That's totally impractical

Moderating threads means:

- more work for moderators
- loss of any meaningful conversation flow

mneylon

HandWS LTD wrote: »

2 of the points i mentioned should help if they haven't been used before. BLOCK ALL web hosting companies after a certain time (including official representatives) from the web hosting category e.g 6pm. And when a users asks about some hosting companies or recommendation for a hosting company to go with, then ONLY the mods can reply. Some ways to stop the pimping going on. Are the developers of boards.ie able to develop something like that?

1st off - doing that programmatically would be a pain
Secondly - you have no way of knowing who anyone is. Sure, you can block me, but I'm upfront about who I am
3rd - it's more work for the mods

HandWS LTD wrote: »

A 3rd solution is that any post written to the web host forum will not be visable until it is viewed by a mod to be acceptable for the forum. They can only communicate with mods if not suitable and the mod's prob don't have to reply for a couple of days or so when they are free. If suitable then the other 2 points above comes into play or something like that. Does that make it easier?

More work for the mods again

Blowfish

Cabaal wrote: »

The twitter post in question would be of major concern, but I'd think that IF such a forum was re-opened then no sigs allowed and outright bans for anyone acting the muppet.

Personally I'd prefer if they were required to state in their sig which hosting company they are involved with if relevant. It'd come in especially useful knowing which to avoid if/when they act the muppet like HWS.

Seth Brundle

I think its time that mods should get paid!

tomED

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Unfortunately, often times the posts that were causing problems didn't come just from other hosts but from their customers or former customers as well.

As for pimping, the rules are already as strict as they can get on it - Don't do it. I have and do ban posters for doing so, and despite the threads pointing out the ban, it happens regardless. I don't see what can change other than making potentially more work for myself by allowing the discussion again.

Firstly can I say, I've been misquoted above and would appreciate reference to me is removed from the second point, which I never made... I think it was HWS if I am correct.

In relation to customers causing problems, we've all seen those ones - but then there are the cases of genuine recommendations and horror stories. But that's clearly not the job of a moderator to establish.

I myself have been brought up on the matter of recommending, which personally I think is unfair - but I don't make the rules so I need to abide by them!!

aidan_walsh

tomED wrote:

I've been misquoted above and would appreciate reference to me is removed from the second point

Apologies, genuine mistake. I have edited it accordingly.

HandWS LTD

I have apoligised and regret what did happen. One person did mention about just opening the web hosting to the users ONLY which was a good recommendation but then again after reading all this i believe the there is NO chance of this happening. Another just above mentioned the mods should be getting paid. They are all suggestions that will help.

I only wanted to see if there is any chance of it happenning and how bad it was back then. However, i rest my case and know that it would never happen...therefore the users will have to find the information elsewhere as the design forum is limited to what info they can find. Maybe i'm not the first to have asked this.....surely not AND i'm not against any of the points made in this thread. Fair play guys, for putting your suggestions and arguments here.

mneylon

HandWS LTD wrote: »

I have apoligised and regret what did happen. One person did mention about just opening the web hosting to the users ONLY which was a good recommendation but then again after reading all this i believe the there is NO chance of this happening. Another just above mentioned the mods should be getting paid. They are all suggestions that will help.

And who is going to pay the mods?

If you pay the mods for one forum, then they'll all want / expect to get paid

HandWS LTD

HandWS LTD wrote: »

Another just above mentioned the mods should be getting paid. They are all suggestions that will help.

This question should not be directed at me as i have said "Another" person mentioned the mods should be getting paid.

mneylon

HandWS LTD wrote: »

This question should not be directed at me as i have said "Another" person mentioned the mods should be getting paid.

You were obviously in favour of the concept - you said it would "help"

HandWS LTD

Suggestions.....for the mods to help in their decision making. But its not going to happen.