We need high salaries in the public sector?

SLUSK

I see alot of commentators here saying you need high salaries in the public sector to attract good people.

My question is, what does Ireland have to show for it? Do you have the best health care? Do you have the best education? What about infrastructure?

The answer is high salaries in the public sector obviously did not produce any good outcomes, how come other countries have better public sectors while the salaries are lower for their workers?

My theory behind all of this is the government did not hand out high salaries to get a good public sector, they did this to get reelected. No government will ever act in the interest of their people, they will only act to get reelected.

Count Dooku

SLUSK wrote: »

I see alot of commentators here saying you need high salaries in the public sector to attract good people.

Not now, when unemployment is growing
Even if you half salaries for them, they will not get any job in private sector
Especially clerks and other supporting staff

irish_bob

SLUSK wrote: »

I see alot of commentators here saying you need high salaries in the public sector to attract good people.

My question is, what does Ireland have to show for it? Do you have the best health care? Do you have the best education? What about infrastructure?

The answer is high salaries in the public sector obviously did not produce any good outcomes, how come other countries have better public sectors while the salaries are lower for their workers?

My theory behind all of this is the government did not hand out high salaries to get a good public sector, they did this to get reelected. No government will ever act in the interest of their people, they will only act to get reelected.

tell us something we dont know

S.L.F

SLUSK wrote: »

I see alot of commentators here saying you need high salaries in the public sector to attract good people.

That is true you need good salaries to attract good people.

SLUSK wrote: »

My question is, what does Ireland have to show for it? Do you have the best health care? Do you have the best education? What about infrastructure?

We have one of the best education systems in the world, our teachers are well educated and well trained.

Healthcare cuts has been used by FF for years to save money but the thing they never tell you, is you have to spend the money to keep it upgraded, if they had not made so many cuts over the last 20 years we would not have such a shambles of a healthcare system.

Infrastructure...well it is getting better.

SLUSK wrote: »

The answer is high salaries in the public sector obviously did not produce any good outcomes, how come other countries have better public sectors while the salaries are lower for their workers?

Can you name some of these countries and what it costs to buy a house and a pint there?

SLUSK wrote: »

My theory behind all of this is the government did not hand out high salaries to get a good public sector, they did this to get reelected. No government will ever act in the interest of their people, they will only act to get reelected.

I agree with you here but also they were the first ones to get bench-marking and of anybody they got by far the most %%%...

Count Dooku

S.L.F wrote: »

Can you name some of these countries and what it costs to buy a house and a pint there?

Finland
Average PS salary € 28,569
Average Industrial salary € 31,995

Petrol - 1.29
http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/
0.5 Can of lager - 3.5 ( Cheaper to go to Russia and get drunk)
3 bed semi in 2007 -344 252
http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_asuminen_en.html#Householddwelling
Aprtments much cheaper - from 50K now

jimmmy

S.L.F wrote: »

We have one of the best education systems in the world, our teachers are well educated and well trained.

That is the spin / propoganda put out by the education industry in Ireland. Yet only two of our universities are in the top 100 univestities worldwide ( Trinity and UCD ) , while our neighbouring country the UK has 3 in the top four. This despite many of our kids get grinds ( a nice little nixer for many teachers incidentally ). Most of us could not utter a sentence in a continental language to save our lives. Do not kid yourself ; we are not as well educated as you think, especially when our teachers are paid so much more than most of their counterparts overseas.

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

That is the spin / propoganda put out by the education industry in Ireland. Yet only two of our universities are in the top 100 univestities worldwide ( Trinity and UCD ) , while our neighbouring country the UK has 3 in the top four.

2 out of the top 100!

I think that is fantastic considering we only have a handful of universities compared to the UK.

Plus of course the UK has 70 million people in it and we only have 4 million.

bonkey

jimmmy wrote: »

That is the spin / propoganda put out by the education industry in Ireland.

I don't think so. Ireland consistently scores highly in any international comparison. A quick google should confirm this.

Yet only two of our universities are in the top 100 univestities worldwide ( Trinity and UCD ) , while our neighbouring country the UK has 3 in the top four.

I'm not sure how you see a country with Ireland's population having two of the top hundred universities worldwide as being badly off. If a nation like the US had proportionally the same quality, we'd already have the entire top 100 filled up. Add in the entirety of the developed nations, and all of a sudden, it should seem pretty damned impressive that we can manage two.

The argument, however, is somewhat strawmannish to begin with. You don't measure the overall quality of an education system by looking at how good the best is. addition, concentrating on third-level education is itself misleading.

The median (or some other average) education received would be far more relevant. The question should also be asked as to what relevance the worldwide quality of our universities has when the issue at hand is really about the monies paid in primary and secondary levels.

This despite many of our kids get grinds ( a nice little nixer for many teachers incidentally ).

Do you have reason to believe that Ireland is somehow exceptional in this regard - that extracurricular learning activities are not to be found in other nations, or are only to be found to a lesser extent?

Most of us could not utter a sentence in a continental language to save our lives.

Again, I'd suggest that this is somewhat of a strawman. The quality of an education system is not judged on its strengths or weaknesses in one specific field.

S.L.F

bonkey wrote: »

I don't think so. Ireland consistently scores highly in any international comparison. A quick google should confirm this.

Plus the fact that we rise through the rankings every year!!!

http://www.topuniversities.com.dev.quaqs.com/worlduniversityrankings/university_rankings_news/article/top_irish_universities_continue_to_climb_world_university_rankings/

Dannyboy83

SLUSK wrote: »

I see alot of commentators here saying you need high salaries in the public sector to attract good people.

My question is, what does Ireland have to show for it? Do you have the best health care? Do you have the best education? What about infrastructure?

The answer is high salaries in the public sector obviously did not produce any good outcomes, how come other countries have better public sectors while the salaries are lower for their workers?

My theory behind all of this is the government did not hand out high salaries to get a good public sector, they did this to get reelected. No government will ever act in the interest of their people, they will only act to get reelected.

Yes, its true.

If you get the public servants and farmers onside, you'll likely have the balance of power.
If you don't have the public servants onside, you'll lose nearly all of Dublin and probably some of Cork.

This has been proven various times through various campaigns.

All of this conflict we are having right now, is a direct result of Bertie Ahern.
He bought the votes of the Public Servants.
He knew how to play the system perfectly for his own benefit in the short term, regardless of the impact on the nation on the long term.

Every new public sector job means a new vote, you are creating votes.
Do some benchmarking pre-election and you're sorted.

Its greed.
Same sh1t for the private sector.
If we had a good pension or good tax breaks, whatever politician promised it would have a landslide victory.

MaceFace

S.L.F wrote: »

Plus the fact that we rise through the rankings every year!!!

http://www.topuniversities.com.dev.quaqs.com/worlduniversityrankings/university_rankings_news/article/top_irish_universities_continue_to_climb_world_university_rankings/

I have always been dubious about self praise of our education system as it is always difficult to measure.
What I do know is that I have heard many claims over the last month saying out education system is nowhere near the top in the EU. I know there was a report done recently but I can't find it now. Maybe someone else has it?

Liam Byrne

The old "pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys" line has been trotted out for years, however in most cases we have gotten monkeys regardless - at least in the higher levels with authority and decision-making responsibilities.

The baseline pay should be significantly reduced, and then if someone does a damn good job, give them a big bonus.

And if someone does the opposite, or helps to land the country in the ****, fire the ba**ard!

Unfortunately, with Ireland's politics so ****e and self-interested, this becomes a case of "pass the [blame] parcel", and no-one in authority wants to actually examine who's to blame because (a) it might be traced back to themselves and (b) if it's not themselves this time, it would be next time.

The word "accountability" simply DOES NOT EXIST. And as for "forward thinking" and "the greater good" - forget it!

irish_bob

bonkey wrote: »

I don't think so. Ireland consistently scores highly in any international comparison. A quick google should confirm this.


I'm not sure how you see a country with Ireland's population having two of the top hundred universities worldwide as being badly off. If a nation like the US had proportionally the same quality, we'd already have the entire top 100 filled up. Add in the entirety of the developed nations, and all of a sudden, it should seem pretty damned impressive that we can manage two.

The argument, however, is somewhat strawmannish to begin with. You don't measure the overall quality of an education system by looking at how good the best is. addition, concentrating on third-level education is itself misleading.

The median (or some other average) education received would be far more relevant. The question should also be asked as to what relevance the worldwide quality of our universities has when the issue at hand is really about the monies paid in primary and secondary levels.


Do you have reason to believe that Ireland is somehow exceptional in this regard - that extracurricular learning activities are not to be found in other nations, or are only to be found to a lesser extent?


Again, I'd suggest that this is somewhat of a strawman. The quality of an education system is not judged on its strengths or weaknesses in one specific field.

ed walsh was on the radio recently discussing our world renowned education system

in a chart run down of the best , finland comes in at number three , ireland doesnt make the top 20 yet irish teachers earn 55% more than thier finnish counterparts and yes , the cost of living in finland is every bit as high as in ireland

irish_bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yes, its true.

If you get the public servants and farmers onside, you'll likely have the balance of power.
If you don't have the public servants onside, you'll lose nearly all of Dublin and probably some of Cork.

This has been proven various times through various campaigns.

All of this conflict we are having right now, is a direct result of Bertie Ahern.
He bought the votes of the Public Servants.
He knew how to play the system perfectly for his own benefit in the short term, regardless of the impact on the nation on the long term.

Every new public sector job means a new vote, you are creating votes.
Do some benchmarking pre-election and you're sorted.

Its greed.
Same sh1t for the private sector.
If we had a good pension or good tax breaks, whatever politician promised it would have a landslide victory.

one public sector job created means several vote when you count close family members , irish people above all things like to keep money in the family which is why the public sector have more support from the private sector than you might think

faceman

S.L.F wrote: »

We have one of the best education systems in the world, our teachers are well educated and well trained.

These are words I will never forget.

When I younger the family moved abroad and i was going to start 5th year in the school that was using the UK education system. (Although I wasnt in the UK)

I had done a few months of 5th year in Ireland. All the teachers in my school told me that I would be streets ahead of everyone "we have one the best education systems in the world" etc etc. One teacher (well a headmaster), in a different school where my bro went, commented to my parents that I would struggle.

He was right. In the end I had to come home to sit the leaving cert. The knowledge I had gained while studying A Levels was college material in some cases.

The school I was in had a max class size of 18 people, allowed students to be creative by encouraging non academic subjects, both as part of your study and in your free time. there was also a focus on student fitness.

I went to what was considered an excellent school in Ireland, but only the weaker students were allowed to study creative subjects. There was no focus on sport or fitness unless you were naturally talented.

Obviously i dont blame the teachers. Nor do I think our teachers are less talented than other countries. I do however strongly believe we have a poor education system.

I will never miss my school days.

S.L.F

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The old "pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys" line has been trotted out for years, however in most cases we have gotten monkeys regardless - at least in the higher levels with authority and decision-making responsibilities.

Ah you'll be talking about the govt then...

jimmmy

faceman wrote: »

These are words I will never forget.

When I younger the family moved abroad and i was going to start 5th year in the school that was using the UK education system. (Although I wasnt in the UK)

I had done a few months of 5th year in Ireland. All the teachers in my school told me that I would be streets ahead of everyone "we have one the best education systems in the world" etc etc. One teacher (well a headmaster), in a different school where my bro went, commented to my parents that I would struggle.

He was right. In the end I had to come home to sit the leaving cert. The knowledge I had gained while studying A Levels was college material in some cases.

The school I was in had a max class size of 18 people, allowed students to be creative by encouraging non academic subjects, both as part of your study and in your free time. there was also a focus on student fitness.

I went to what was considered an excellent school in Ireland, but only the weaker students were allowed to study creative subjects. There was no focus on sport or fitness unless you were naturally talented.

Obviously i dont blame the teachers. Nor do I think our teachers are less talented than other countries. I do however strongly believe we have a poor education system.

I will never miss my school days.

I agree with you there. People think our Inter/junior cert and Leaving cert is as good as their O and A-levels....yet I know someone who got a A in a subject in the inter cert here and a year later failed it at O-level.

Our teachers in this country are incredibly cocky ...they are overpaid + have too many holidays. Remember the one on the Joe Duffy show about 6 months ago - she thought it was her God-given right to have a holiday home in Croatia. When the govt reduce their pay, I hope they go after taxing some of the money they make on Grinds and cash nixers. I know many third level lecturers who had sideline businesses during the years ( eg quantity surveying / helping small builders price jobs ; site checking + drawings for one-off housing ; summer tourism ventures etc )