Why a photograph with the FCA1 applications?

pedroeibar

[font=&quot]I understood the new licences were to be like credit cards, with photo ID. I saw one of the new licences for the first time yesterday. Jeez, what a joke. A little bit of paper with a foil thingy on it, to be stuffed into a crappy lightweight plastic sleeve. Even the CAI membership card is more professional looking. What happened to the photo? [/font]

[font=&quot]In addition to 2 referees, club membership details, doctors details and a visit to the G Station, why bother with photos if they are not placed on the cards? What was/is the point? [/font]

[font=&quot]Tomorrow will be two months after I lodged my FCA1's. Not even an acknowledgement yet. No wonder the country is going down the tubes.
P.[/font]

Grizzly 45

You didnt honestly think those photos were going to be put on there for your benefit now were you???:D:D:D
Personally this was always a double edged sword.If you lost or had the liscense stolen,any scumbag had then your details including a fine pic of what you looked like,where you lived,your PULSE number,and what you shoot,and how much ammo you have.So putting your mugshot on it was IMHO very stupid and a security risk.Not to mind this crazier idea of paying thru the post office..At least with the Gardai handling it ,your were assured your info was 98% safe.Beats me why they couldnt install Laser card terminals in the main Garda stations,thussly enabling the whole system to be dealt with at the station desk,or cash office,and allowing all and sundry fines,payments etc to be speedily done there and then..But thats another Govt comittees job!:rolleyes:

The other nasty edge is ,now who or what or where are those pics being used for???Where are they now,and if non copyrighted to a specific usage[IE liscensing your guns] .Dont be surprised if your pic shows up one day somwhere intresting and non Garda related...:eek::eek::eek:

Bananaman

Is that a Black Helicopter over there??

B'Man

Cass

Tin foil hats to the ready

Gerri

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You didnt honestly think those photos were going to be put on there for your benefit now were you???:D:D:D
Personally this was always a double edged sword.If you lost or had the liscense stolen,any scumbag had then your details including a fine pic of what you looked like,where you lived,your PULSE number,and what you shoot,and how much ammo you have.So putting your mugshot on it was IMHO very stupid and a security risk.Not to mind this crazier idea of paying thru the post office..At least with the Gardai handling it ,your were assured your info was 98% safe.Beats me why they couldnt install Laser card terminals in the main Garda stations,thussly enabling the whole system to be dealt with at the station desk,or cash office,and allowing all and sundry fines,payments etc to be speedily done there and then..But thats another Govt comittees job!:rolleyes:

The other nasty edge is ,now who or what or where are those pics being used for???Where are they now,and if non copyrighted to a specific usage[IE liscensing your guns] .Dont be surprised if your pic shows up one day somwhere intresting and non Garda related...:eek::eek::eek:

Regarding the PO staff,unless the system has changed ,all PO staff are security vetted,by the Gardai,I believe. They DO handle large quantities of cash daily,and registered mail,and legal documents,and court files,and bank files,and etc.etc. Unbelievable but true,some people STILL send large quantities of CASH (sometimes thousands)through the post ,unregistered,in crappy envelopes which open but 99.9% of it still reaches its destination fully intact and repackaged at no extra cost. Yep,the PO staff are really untrustworthy.

Grizzly 45

Gerri wrote: »

Regarding the PO staff,unless the system has changed ,all PO staff are security vetted,by the Gardai,I believe. They DO handle large quantities of cash daily,and registered mail,and legal documents,and court files,and bank files,and etc.etc. Unbelievable but true,some people STILL send large quantities of CASH (sometimes thousands)through the post ,unregistered,in crappy envelopes which open but 99.9% of it still reaches its destination fully intact and repackaged at no extra cost. Yep,the PO staff are really untrustworthy.

AND of course An Post have total power of immunity against threats,blackmail,coerecing of family or Tiger raid.They are also immune to drug,loan shark debits as well.And that magical protection extends to immediate family as well!!!!!Superman eat your heart out!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Being vetted by the Gardai...Hmmm If you are not a known and recognised scumbag ,kiddy fiddler or immediate family thereof...Off you go and become a taxi driver,security gaurd,Reserve Garda,gunowner :rolleyes: or whatever presumeably inc an An Post worker.Sorry ,a backround check here is laughable under our current legislation and privacy laws..

Of course Kilrush is a perfectly safe town too to send info to as well.
Just that one of the biggest lynch pins and extended family of the entire Mid West reigon of drug dealers lives there!Who of course have no contact or knowledge whatsoever of any an post workers there either,or other drug gangs in Ireland.:rolleyes:
I am NOT SATISFIED that my personal and confidential information is being handled appropriately and securly by a semi state body,that despite your assurances Gerri is somwhat different than losing the info on who has paid their TV liscenses !
And I would like some assurances from either the Gardai/DOJ and or an Post as to what saftey procedures they have in place to ensure this information is kept secure,who has access to it.How it will be stored in compliance with secure data storage laid down by the DPA,etc.As should anybody who has a FAC!!There is no point in us building the Maginot line in our houses,and a SemiGovt body goes and loses this info thru data mismanagement,threats to their staff and negating all our expensive alarms and security.
Mark my words.This is a very real possibility of this happening,and you can be sure no Govt body will take responsibility ,compensate you or fire the incompetant who lost the info for your family having a "Tiger experiance".
BTW this concern has been expressed by the Gardai /CPOs as well,in case you think my colander needs adjusting!:)

Gerri

So can you provide details on the necessary level of Data Protection to ensure all our info is safe,which would be of tremendous benefit to all of us with firearms? I personally look forward to you sending me this info,by pm if preferable,so that I can absolutely guarantee that my info is safe and secure.Just one thing,have you applied under the FoI Act to see exactly what information An Post have on file,either on PC or in written form? If not,perhaps you should, just so you can be sure of what they have and how long they keep the records on file.

Bananaman

:eek::eek:

Any chance of, in a public forum, like this one highlighting any other security risks while you're at it?

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there waiting for you to provide it - best not keep them waiting.

B'Man

fat-tony

Suggested solution to the concerns regarding payment at An Post:

Change the grant letter to have a tear-off section with just the grant reference number - no names, no firearms details. Change the data exchange between An Post and Garda IT system to include just the grant reference numbers and payment info - no names, addresses or firearms details. The grant numbers should be (or should be made) sufficiently robust with check digits etc. to preclude mis-reading or mis-keying of the data. Only the Garda IT system should be able to link the grant numbers and personal/firearm details. No personal data necessary to be held in An Post systems.

I will be pressing my NGB representative at FCP to ask for improvements in the way these payments are processed. I would suggest others do likewise.

rrpc

fat-tony wrote: »

Suggested solution to the concerns regarding payment at An Post:

Change the grant letter to have a tear-off section with just the grant reference number - no names, no firearms details. Change the data exchange between An Post and Garda IT system to include just the grant reference numbers and payment info - no names, addresses or firearms details. The grant numbers should be (or should be made) sufficiently robust with check digits etc. to preclude mis-reading or mis-keying of the data. Only the Garda IT system should be able to link the grant numbers and personal/firearm details. No personal data necessary to be held in An Post systems.

I will be pressing my NGB representative at FCP to ask for improvements in the way these payments are processed. I would suggest others do likewise.

Although that sounds like a sensible suggestion, how would they send your licence to you if they don't have your name and address?

fat-tony

rrpc wrote: »

Although that sounds like a sensible suggestion, how would they send your licence to you if they don't have your name and address?

Mmmm - the Garda system sends you the licence. The An Post leg is for processing the payment;)

pedroeibar

The photo with the FCA1 is redundant. My point is about the stupidity of not properly utilising key data, particularly when a huge amount of work is involved. The DoJ had an opportunity to do it right and blew it.

The new licence does not show an address (if I recall correctly) just the name, age, gun details and Pulse ID, which is an improvement on the old one. Surely a photo ID card like the US driving license (minus address) would be appropriate?

Although I would prefer to limit my information to the Gardai, I do not have a big issue with An Post staff; I would be more worried by some of the skangers in the queue behind me.
P.

rrpc

pedroeibar wrote: »

The photo with the FCA1 is redundant. My point is about the stupidity of not properly utilising key data, particularly when a huge amount of work is involved. The DoJ had an opportunity to do it right and blew it.

There never was any intention to put your photo on the licence. I think someone else posted the reason, but it was to prevent the possible identification of license holders should their licence be lost. I'm actually not sure what the point would be in having the photo on the license in any case. If a gun dealer wishes to identify you as the holder he just has to ask for other identification and the Gardai use your DOB or PULSE id for identification purposes. Should that prove problematic, they have a photo of you on the application back at base.

Although I would prefer to limit my information to the Gardai, I do not have a big issue with An Post staff; I would be more worried by some of the skangers in the queue behind me.
P.

All the skangers in the queue behind me were over 65 .

freddieot

An Post don't send out the certs so they don't ever need the address.

Once payment is made the grant letter reference number can be marked as paid (why they scan the barcode) in the crossover file given to the Guards which in turn is used to activate the issue of the cert - (I suspect).

I don't give my name an address every time I use my VISA but for some reason the bill always seems to find me !

A detachable section on the grant letter is the sensible secure solution. This could be either brought into a PO or sent with the payment by post.

rrpc

freddieot wrote: »

An Post don't send out the certs so they don't ever need the address.

Are you sure of that?

Grizzly 45

Gerri wrote: »

So can you provide details on the necessary level of Data Protection to ensure all our info is safe,which would be of tremendous benefit to all of us with firearms? I personally look forward to you sending me this info,by pm if preferable,so that I can absolutely guarantee that my info is safe and secure.Just one thing,have you applied under the FoI Act to see exactly what information An Post have on file,either on PC or in written form? If not,perhaps you should, just so you can be sure of what they have and how long they keep the records on file.

ERR NO Gerri READ my post again,and understand what it says .Not what you THINK it says!!...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:I am asking An Post to provide this information or the Gardai/DOJ!!! And they can provide it to our organisations,via the FCP.This matter has been raised with an organisation and hopefully will be discussed with the FCP.

Bman,
I dont know if you are being scarcastic or not!!
Seeing that you obviously think it is better off to hide the faults under the carpet or adapt the typical Irish attitude of "ah shure nothing will happen."
Untill it does blow up in our collective faces,and then no one is responsible!!.Apart from us gunowners,as Sparks did point out here in another thread,that if you are and do everything 100% right by the book,to the powers that be you are still in the wrong...The whole point of highlighting a security fault is that it is then CORRECTED TO PREVENT THAT INCIDENT OCCURING!!!!
Not my fault if I can see an obvious blatent fault,as could various CPOs and people with firearms certs who have seen this and think it should be highlighted.And I am amazed 100% that this potential security breach was not spotted by the people who put this together and who are in charge of planning and protecting for the security of this State.
But no you get the usual shoot the messenger attitude here to a problem.:(

I dont have any axe to grind with An Post workers,who by and large are sound folks[apart from losing about 12 bits of my mail a year].My concern is that the system as planned is dangerous and unsecure in the following way [1] the data storage, [2] the data transfer on the human end [3] access to the data.
I am sure the actual hardware is 99% safe,but the great fault here is going to be human access to it for whatever reason .
If we have to go and do all this security,and are informed not to have obvious signs of being gunowners in our everyday lives as per Garda guidelines...Shouldnt it behoove the State and its organisations to treat our personal information,and saftey,of us and their workers who will handle thisinfo with the utmost security considerations as well????

Bananaman

Grizzly,

I was at the Meeting where you asked for it to be raised with the FCP - I did not notice any commitment to do so - If I was you I would be following up with a direct question to the relevant associations or individuals to get a commitment that they will seek clarity on it and inform you of the outcome - otherwise it's a fart in the wind.

I just don't think there is much value to be gotten from airing topics like this in a public forum where there is not one person who can do anything for you. All you do is potentially highlight the matter to those with more nefarious intentions. Although I suppose at least it is a fart in an elevator.

B'Man

Grizzly 45

I was at the Meeting where you asked for it to be raised with the FCP - I did not notice any commitment to do so - If I was you I would be following up with a direct question to the relevant associations or individuals to get a commitment that they will seek clarity on it and inform you of the outcome - otherwise it's a fart in the wind.

I had mentioned it previously to JC a few weeks before to bring this up with the FCP.If you were there you would also have heard the other chap from Limerick confirming my statement on the security situation.
You know Bman this concerns me,you,everyone on this board,and anyone who has a FAC in the 26 counties.So please dont feel shy to ask off your groups as well about the matter.That goes for anyone.

I just don't think there is much value to be gotten from airing topics like this in a public forum where there is not one person who can do anything for you. All you do is potentially highlight the matter to those with more nefarious intentions. Although I suppose at least it is a fart in an elevator.

I dont expect anyone here to do much about it Bman.Apart from maybe raising this issue with their rep bodies.
Just hopefully too the daily readers from "the powers that be" are now made aware of their screwup and that we are aware of what sort of risk this system is putting us in.Look,if a basic thicko like me can see a fault,do you mean to tell me that a criminal wouldnt see it without reading boards??
Hiding and avoiding this sort of question is juvenile and pointless.It is the same logic that legal handguns "might" be stolen and therefore it is better to ban them to prevent a theft...A pinch of medicine is worth a pound of cure without killing the patient

Now this brings onto another point..We are orderd to secure our firearms BY ALL POSSIBLE MEANS by the Gardai.By not highlighting this publicaly that there is a potential problem with the security,you are in actuality not abiding by the conditions of your FAC.Security doesnt just mean having an alarm or gunsafe.

Gerri

Grizzly,if you can't be bothered to go through the FoI and DPA procedures,there is not really any point discussing this. If you don't ask the questions of the people who can provide answers,not the NGBs,I really don't know what you are trying to achieve,other than a sore head from banging it on the wall.

Grizzly 45

Fine Gerri,I can go thru the FOI and DPA,but then dont expect to be spoon fed the information here either!! I see the 98% rule is still alive and well here in your attitude.And seeing that the NGBs are in closer contact with the FCP and those architects of this mess,I think it would be easier for them to get answers than me publishing the findings of the DPA.:mad:

Gerri

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Fine Gerri,I can go thru the FOI and DPA,but then dont expect to be spoon fed the information here either!! I see the 98% rule is still alive and well here in your attitude.And seeing that the NGBs are in closer contact with the FCP and those architects of this mess,I think it would be easier for them to get answers than me publishing the findings of the DPA.:mad:

I will make my enquiries to the relevant agency if and when I decide it is necessary because I don't expect any NGB or it's officials to represent me in any official capacity. You see,if I have a problem with something I sort it myself,I don't pass my work on to others as I believe the best person to present my case is ME. If you believe the NGBs are better able to represent your views,fine, you go with that and I hope you get the info you want.

Grizzly 45

Well,best of luck with it Gerri.You obviously have more time and money to go chasing the FIA.Whats it now??150 quid per enquiry??? A trifle under "the openness ,transparency and accountability" of the Irish Govt.
i belive in repersenting myself,and sorting out my probs personally,but contray to what you might belive,I've realised that if I am paying others to do work,by subscribing to their organisations ,etc and that they have contacts to the revelant depts,then let them get on with the job they are appointed to do and forward my concerns to the revelant govt body.
If I have a gaurd dog,that means I shouldnt have to bark myself.:)

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

i belive in repersenting myself,and sorting out my probs personally,but contray to what you might belive,I've realised that if I am paying others to do work,by subscribing to their organisations ,etc and that they have contacts to the revelant depts,then let them get on with the job they are appointed to do and forward my concerns to the revelant govt body.
If I have a gaurd dog,that means I shouldnt have to bark myself.:)

I'd just like to point out in case anyone gets the idea that here's a good job in a recession , that apart from the NARGC and the ICPSA who each have a full time paid executive, the rest of the associations have no paid employees whatsoever.

Your subscription usually goes directly back into the sport in the form of support for national and international competition, equipment, training, public relations and support for member clubs.

Grizzly 45

Ok I'll rephrase that for the pendants out there... I am "paying " {note commas!}others to do voulantary work for which they recive absolutely no benefit whatsover,little or no praise,and out of the goodness of their hearts.To repersent my intrests.etc.etc.etc. Happy Now????SHEEESSSHHH!!!:):)

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok I'll rephrase that for the pendants out there... I am "paying " {note commas!}others to do voulantary work for which they recive absolutely no benefit whatsover,little or no praise,and out of the goodness of their hearts.To repersent my intrests.etc.etc.etc. Happy Now????SHEEESSSHHH!!!:):)

I know you know Grizzly, it's the ones that pop in here less frequently I'm concerned about.

And it's funny how one wrong sentence becomes fact in short order