My outrage at some members of the public service

Drawing Dead

i always assumed that all this public sector bashing had to have some truth in it as where there is smoke there is fire. however i always thought that things were exaggerated and people in the public sector weren't really on oversized wages and only sitting about drinking tea all day. i had sympathy for the marchers last week as the unions told us most public sector works are on modest wages but i also know our government hasn't got much of a choice as they have to lower their expenditure, which made me more sympathetic to these people as their modest wages are going to decrease with or without them protesting.
my opinion changed today.
i saw my friends' pay slip.
he's a fireman, and he's been one for just over 3 years, he's set to earn just under 50,000 euro this year.
he was marching last week, protesting against a cut to his pay.
i know people will say firemen do a dangerous job and save lives and they deserve that pay but this is the real world and peoples wages are structured on the amount of qualifications, training and experience you have, and the responsibility bestowed upon you. to put this into context my brother is a civil engineer and has been working in the industry for just over 3 years, same as my fireman friend. he works for one of the biggest civil engineering companies in the country and his work involves being in charge of very large building sites. he is currently being paid about 38,000 euro, he has just taken a 6% pay cut and is working 55hours a week as his company is obviously understaffed at the moment with cost cutting measures. he is on a salary so doesn't get paid overtime, just has to work to get the job done. he is doing this because he has a thing i like to call moral responsibility which i feel some public sector workers don't have. if the employees at my brothers company didn't take the pay cuts or work over time the company will go bust and they will all be out of a job.

some people in this country have gotten used to the oversized wages they got during the boom period and we laughed at our European neighbours as we were some of the highest paid workers in the EU. this was obviously silly and now we have to amend our pay structures. it is completely unsustainable to pay people these inflated wages and the knowledge of what my friend actually earns has made me incredibly angry that people can't see past their own selfish gains and instead whinge about having their pay corrected to a normal and sustainable amount.

i know people will say that i'm taring the public sector with one brush, but i don't doubt there are people in the public sector getting paid the amount they are worth. i'm giving out about this one persons pay, and he can't be the only person being paid more than he should be.

Darragh29

We haven't even got to the performance issues yet, the efficiencies that are clearly not there. We're still stuck on the simple enough issue of renumeration.

You can imagine the problem we will have on our hands when we start looking into the public sector and try to eliminate the sheer waste and replication of jobs, etc...

PoleStar

Just to clarify something, which is frequently forgotten, public sector workers have already taken a pay cut.

Yes it may be masquerading as the pension levy but lets look at this for a second. If it is truly a pension levy, it would be calculated on the part of your pay that contributes to your pension, fair is fair. And yet this is not the case. Despite the fact that for example overtime is NON pensionable, it is still taxed with the pension levy.

Ok so say a public sector worker has taken a pension opt out (as many have for example when they join the public sector with already exisiting pension funds), surely they wouldnt have to pay a PENSION levy if they are not going to receive one. Well yes they do, in fact, if you are merely entitled to the public sector pension then you pay the levy.

So yes the public sector has taken a pay cut. And while back at the time there was a alot of mumbling and grumbling about this, it was borne on the chin as public sector workers realised that the proverbial sh1t had hit the fan. And this, despite the fact that we chose the boring jobs that while have good conditions of employment, never offer the perks and potentials of the private sector. And the cuts were accepted despite the fact that it was the PRIVATE sector that caused the mess, institutions such as Bank of Ireland that has given a PAY RISE this year.

So go figure, the public sector is supposed to take FURTHER pay cuts, and via taxes, and NAMA, support the likes of the Banks, Banks who are giving their workers pay rises.

I dont think so.

Turner

Drawing Dead wrote: »

my brother is a civil engineer and has been working in the industry for just over 3 years, same as my fireman friend. he works for one of the biggest civil engineering companies in the country and his work involves being in charge of very large building sites. he is currently being paid about 38,000 euro, he has just taken a 6% pay cut and is working 55hours a week as his company is obviously understaffed at the moment with cost cutting measures.

He has only been working 3 years.

Dont worry in 5-6 years he will be on big buck$

With a third level degree you can earn €70,000 - €80,000

http://www.employireland.com/Jobs-Roles/y9EKAfQUEdu0MwAT1JUP0A/Civil-engineer-(Contracting).aspx

And in the boom they were earning up to 100k.

The fireman was earning the same minus benchmarking while still driving around tallaght getting bottled and bricked and pulling burned bodies out of houses.

Darragh29

You should be paid less than private sector workers as long as you have fully secure jobs, guaranteed pensions and are protected by unions.

Dannyboy83

50k for a fireman doesn't seem to unreasonable to me.

They do 24hour shifts, risk their lives in the course of their duties and have extreme psychological trauma in the natural course of their work. They deserve to be compensated well for the risk alone, before you get started on the un-renumerated overtime and being on call.

Teachers on the other hand................:rolleyes:

muboop1

Darragh29 wrote: »

guaranteed pensions

which they pay for... always have paid for, but are now paying more...

Peanut

PoleStar wrote: »

....
So go figure, the public sector is supposed to take FURTHER pay cuts, and via taxes, and NAMA, support the likes of the Banks, Banks who are giving their workers pay rises.

I dont think so.

No thinking about it, it's inevitable...

I don't think you'll find much support for your point of view on here, the bankers are an easy target as an example of private sector excesses, but it's worth bearing in mind where the public sector pay cheque ultimately comes from. He who pays the piper etc..

jimmycrackcorm

PoleStar wrote: »

Just to clarify something, which is frequently forgotten, public sector workers have already taken a pay cut.

Getting people to pay for their pension is not a pay cut. Even the levy imposed is insufficient for the value of the pension.

whatnext

Chief--- wrote: »

He has only been working 3 years.

Dont worry in 5-6 years he will be on big buck$

With a third level degree you can earn €70,000 - €80,000

http://www.employireland.com/Jobs-Roles/y9EKAfQUEdu0MwAT1JUP0A/Civil-engineer-(Contracting).aspx

And in the boom they were earning up to 100k.

The fireman was earning the same minus benchmarking while still driving around tallaght getting bottled and bricked and pulling burned bodies out of houses.

Chief,

That is like comparing a Fiat Uno to an F1 car. Both are cars so they should cost the same??

Or like a Civil Service Clerk should get the same salary as a Senior Civil Servant - after all they are both the same - Civil Servants

whatnext

muboop1 wrote: »

which they pay for... always have paid for, but are now paying more...

Not true - they contribute to - they do not pay for.

_Kooli_

Oh dear. Another thread from someone too sore that they couldnt make a career for themselves that would pay a decent wage, so they want anyone on a decent wage to have a cut.
In the private sector you can make way more than €50k .... if you take an interest in developing your career. tbh anyone in the private sector earning less than €50k has not looked after their career at all.
Stop crying over what others get and sort yourself out.

One of the guys i work with has got a pay cut recently and was off on a rant about the public sector. We chose to give him a pay cut because he is crap. Nobody else will be getting one.

Absurdum

Drawing Dead wrote: »

he's a fireman, and he's been one for just over 3 years, he's set to earn just under 50,000 euro this year.
he was marching last week, protesting against a cut to his pay.
i know people will say firemen do a dangerous job and save lives and they deserve that pay but this is the real world and peoples wages are structured on the amount of qualifications, training and experience you have, and the responsibility bestowed upon you. to put this into context my brother is a civil engineer and has been working in the industry for just over 3 years, same as my fireman friend. he works for one of the biggest civil engineering companies in the country and his work involves being in charge of very large building sites. he is currently being paid about 38,000 euro, he has just taken a 6% pay cut and is working 55hours a week as his company is obviously understaffed at the moment with cost cutting measures. he is on a salary so doesn't get paid overtime, just has to work to get the job done. he is doing this because he has a thing i like to call moral responsibility which i feel some public sector workers don't have.

So because a civil engineer did a few years in college it automatically entitles them to earn more than someone who may not have? You think that the "moral responsiblity" of a civil engineer is worth more monetarily than the responsibilty of a fireman? What exactly do you think firemen do???

dresden8

Drawing Dead wrote: »

to put this into context my brother is a civil engineer and has been working in the industry for just over 3 years, same as my fireman friend. he works for one of the biggest civil engineering companies in the country and his work involves being in charge of very large building sites.

To put this into context, are the building sites on fire and is he getting bricked out of it by scumbags while he is working?

Turner

Absurdum wrote: »

So because a civil engineer did a few years in college it automatically entitles them to earn more than someone who may not have? You think that the "moral responsiblity" of a civil engineer is worth more monetarily than the responsibilty of a fireman? What exactly do you think firemen do???

Just for the record.

Alot of Firemen, Nurses and Gardai obtained degrees in university before they chose their career in the Emergency Services.

Dont know about the rest of the Emergency Services but Gardai on completion of their training graduate with a Bachelor of Arts Degree. So many have two degrees and a few have MA's and MSc's

_Kooli_

Chief--- wrote: »

Just for the record.

Alot of Firemen, Nurses and Gardai obtained degrees in university before they chose their career in the Emergency Services.

Dont know about the rest of the Emergency Services but Gardai on completion of their training graduate with a Bachelor of Arts Degree. So many have two degrees and a few have MA's and MSc's

As do teachers.

boodlesdoodles

Darragh29 wrote: »

You should be paid less than private sector workers as long as you have fully secure jobs, guaranteed pensions and are protected by unions.

So basically, punish a public sector employee because that was they chose to apply for and got a permanent job? Jebus why not just refuse to pay them altogether and create a new slave class in Ireland...would that satisfy all the bashers do you think?

Drawing Dead

i'm not saying firemen don't do exceptional jobs, i'm just saying that their wage structure should be in line with the real world. i gave the example of my brother because he is a well qualified person with a very good job. but his salary after 3 years is just under 40,000 and you'll find thats true for most professional jobs as thats what is affordable for a company to pay, and reflective of their position. instead the wage structure of the public service has gotten completely scewed in the last 5 years and is not reflective of the real world and the government can't afford the wages. my friend does an amazing job but that doesn't mean we should pay him more than the position is worth. yes if the government can afford to pay its employees big wages then good luck, but it can't, so pay structures need to be ajusted. i know my brother has a very good career ahead of him and could be earning 70,000 when he's 40 but thats representive of his experience. if the starting salary for a fireman (+3yrs) is 50K then of course our finnances are going to be messed up.

dresden8

Darragh29 wrote: »

You should be paid less than private sector workers as long as you have fully secure jobs, guaranteed pensions and are protected by unions.

Which private sector workers are these?

Bank executives or minimum wage workers?

Of should we just be on less than you?

corglass

Someone put on the kettle! this is a great old debate,

coach23

in the real world people get into situations they cant handle they ring 999 and ask for help we're the ones who answer and react to your cry for help surely we deserve some credit

i saw my friends' pay slip.

how happy would your "friend" be knowing you are publicly bashing him behind his back your a real good "friend"

he's a fireman, and he's been one for just over 3 years, he's set to earn just under 50,000 euro this year.
he was marching last week, protesting against a cut to his pay.
i know people will say firemen do a dangerous job and save lives and they deserve that pay but this is the real world and peoples wages are structured on the amount of qualifications, training and experience you have, and the responsibility bestowed upon you.

and how much do you think he should get paid?

in your humble opinion how much is your "friends" life and well being
worth a year?

when was the last time your brother went home after work having walked into a building that was on fire carried out a family and physically resusitated some of them and failed on the others as the family neighbours friends etc watched on finished his shift, went home cooked dinner became a father to kids the same age as the ones he couldn't revive became a husband to a wife similar to the widow who had just lost her husband gone to bed and went into work the next day did it all over again.........day after day after day, sure they sit around for a bit but when they work they do things that will be on their minds every time they have to sit and wait on that phone to ring................how much would you pay that person a year?

dresden8

coach23 wrote: »

in the real world people get into situations they cant handle they ring 999 and ask for help we're the ones who answer and react to your cry for help surely we deserve some credit



how happy would your "friend" be knowing you are publicly bashing him behind his back your a real good "friend"



and how much do you think he should get paid?

in your humble opinion how much is your "friends" life and well being
worth a year?

when was the last time your brother went home after work having walked into a building that was on fire carried out a family and physically resusitated some of them and failed on the others as the family neighbours friends etc watched on finished his shift, went home cooked dinner became a father to kids the same age as the ones he couldn't revive became a husband to a wife similar to the widow who had just lost her husband gone to bed and went into work the next day did it all over again.........day after day after day, sure they sit around for a bit but when they work they do things that will be on their minds every time they have to sit and wait on that phone to ring................how much would you pay that person a year?

Well worth a fiver an hour I'd say.

coach23

Drawing Dead wrote: »

i'm not saying firemen don't do exceptional jobs, i'm just saying that their wage structure should be in line with the real world. i gave the example of my brother because he is a well qualified person with a very good job. but his salary after 3 years is just under 40,000 and you'll find thats true for most professional jobs as thats what is affordable for a company to pay, and reflective of their position. instead the wage structure of the public service has gotten completely scewed in the last 5 years and is not reflective of the real world and the government can't afford the wages. my friend does an amazing job but that doesn't mean we should pay him more than the position is worth. yes if the government can afford to pay its employees big wages then good luck, but it can't, so pay structures need to be ajusted. i know my brother has a very good career ahead of him and could be earning 70,000 when he's 40 but thats representive of his experience. if the starting salary for a fireman (+3yrs) is 50K then of course our finnances are going to be messed up.

what real world do you live in the one where you dont need firemen?
what job in this "real world" of yours compares to that of a fireman, garda, paramedic........there isnt one we are out there doing a job noone else would do dont punish us for it

coach23

dresden8 wrote: »

Well worth a fiver an hour I'd say.

you're far too generous lad

dresden8

coach23 wrote: »

you're far too generous lad

Don't worry, the pension levy has to come off that.

Count Dooku

dresden8 wrote: »

Which private sector workers are these?

Bank executives or minimum wage workers?

Of should we just be on less than you?

It doesn’t matter
Average income in whole private industry, from cleaners to directors and millionaires is only 32K, while average income for public sector is about 57K. Who is slaves?

Have a look on this table from revenue




We have national taxable income 80 Bn. 20 Bn is coming from public sector.
It means that we have 60 Bn for 1,900,000 taxpayers, which are not employed in public services = 31.578K

One more observation
Public sector workers is the wealthiest class in Ireland.
According to IMPACT around 200,000 PS workers earns more then 40K and less then 100K.
If we will have a look on distribution of incomes from revenue, we will see that 541,774 in total have the same level of income.
It means that 36% of middle-top earners are from public services and this while public services are only 15% of whole workforce.
It means if you working in public services – you two times richer then your private colleague

coach23

One more observation
Public sector workers is the wealthiest class in Ireland.
According to IMPACT around 200,000 PS workers earns more then 40K and less then 100K.
If we will have a look on distribution of incomes from revenue, we will see that 541,774 in total have the same level of income.
It means that 36% of middle-top earners are from public services and this while public services are only 15% of whole workforce.
It means if you working in public services – you two times richer then your private colleague

What private sector colleague do you speak of?

there are no private sector firemen or gardai there cant possibly be a comparison to any job in the private sector because there is no alternative in the private sector if you want to do this job it Has to be public sector. We do the worst jobs no one else wanted to do why shouldn't we be compensated for it

NewDubliner

Count Dooku wrote: »

It doesn’t matter
Average income in whole private industry, from cleaners to directors and millionaires is only 32K, while average income for public sector is about 57K. Who is slaves?

Public sector typically does not include low-skill jobs such as cleaning, labouring or shelf-stacking nor does it include the same numbers of casual or part-time workers.

You're not comparing like with like.

Scofflaw

coach23 wrote: »

What private sector colleague do you speak of?

there are no private sector firemen or gardai there cant possibly be a comparison to any job in the private sector because there is no alternative in the private sector if you want to do this job it Has to be public sector. We do the worst jobs no one else wanted to do why shouldn't we be compensated for it

Because most of you don't do those jobs.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ashleey

Everyone agrees that we would all pay the going rate for fireofficers, nurses, gardai etc... and if you don't, see how you fell next time your kids get sick etc. However, now that the Union of Higher Civil Servants or whatever they call themselves are going on strike, does that mean that one of what should be the real targets of this public pay debate are finally feeling some 'pain' (in the word of the two Brians)?

coach23

Scofflaw wrote: »

Because most of you don't do those jobs.

cordially,
Scofflaw

this thread began with the issue of a firemans pay thats what it's been about generalizations will ruin the debate so we're not talking about the entire public sector nor the entire private sector it was a specific job, admittedly i brought up the gardai and branched out but it was in response to a post regarding the entire public sector