My outrage at some members of the public service

sysconp1

Of course Nurses would appear to have a larger number of sick days off, when single sick days off are not monitored by back office managers. Frontline staff are critical and therefore have to be replaced if they are off> Therefore as a natural progression of this you would expect ALL of their days to be recorded, leading to a TRUE indication of sick time off.

By any chance you wouldn't be a public sector worker would you?

gerry28

sysconp1 wrote: »

when single sick days off are not monitored by back office managers.

How do you know that?

Riskymove

groovy 09 wrote: »

I guess you are saying it is ok for me to take a pay cut and for my partner to wait months for social welfare but don't take anything off the public sector. I hope you all get hit hard on Wednesday.

:rolleyes:

I guess you just see what you want to see

when single sick days off are not monitored by back office managers

all sick leave is monitored in the public service organisations I have been involved with

unklerosco

whatnext wrote: »

You know what would happen if I went on the sick for 6 months?

1 - no pay
2 - no job, after about 1 week I guess.

I was out of work around 3 years ago for 8 months due to a heart infection. I got 1 weeks sick pay and then went onto disability, that took me 2 months to get. At the time I was renting and still had 8 months left on my lease. I couldn't get rent allowance cause my GF was making too much money. She was making €11,000 a year at the time!!! I am still paying off the loans I'd to take out to get through that year... The joys of working in the private sector.

sysconp1

It is a fact that was commented on in another submission above and also by people I know. You are fighting a very weak case here, for what is a corrupt system.

I also agree that any back office public service workers being made redundant by the cuts will have very difficult time trying to find work in the private secter, as there is little or no sympathy for them. Basically the back office workers have had it too easy for far to long, and based their lives on having a job for life.

sysconp1

Sick time is recorded where managers can be bothered to do so. However if you were a manager and had a problem with sick time, would you report it knowing that you will be held responsible? I doubt it!

Hopefully Wednesday will be the start of change in the public service and the frontline staff will throw off the back office staff to create their own union. That way everyone will see what a burden the ineffective staff are on this country and make moves to chnge things at last.

Riskymove

sysconp1 wrote: »

Hopefully Wednesday will be the start of change in the public service and the frontline staff will throw off the back office staff to create their own union. That way everyone will see what a burden the ineffective staff are on this country and make moves to chnge things at last.

remind me....how many administrators are in the INTO, TUI, ASTI, INO etc??

groovy 09

On the sick pay front I know of two colleagues who are ligitimately ill and have both lost their jobs with the company. It's tough but what can you do if you can't work how can you expect a company to pay you, get in a replacement (or pay overtime) and keep your job open for you too ??

Agree, I hope Wednesday brings about change to the Public Sector, it truly is the joke of all jokes at the moment...Private sector businesses are going through extreme lean initiatives to try and remain competative and keep jobs in Ireland, all the public sector does is have a constant rant about how hard done by they are, ironically the more they do it the more the private sector turn against them.

sysconp1

Perhaps we could have a comment from one of the frontline staff on boards to answer your question?

The difference between the frontline and backroom staff is that the Public (AKA the payers of the public service salaries) see the frontline staff actually performing their roles effectively. It is a shame the same cannot be seen of the back room public servants.

Drumpot

I got pulled up on another thread. I made several points and at the end of the point said that part of the problem is that many public service defenders/unions can appear to sound like self interested, ignorant and deluded vested interest groups. . . Im sure that the private sector defenders can appear to sound like cold hearted feckers, with self interests and deluded visions of their own.

I better qualify this as I nearly got a warning from a mod. . There is a difference between being this kind of person, to being passionate about something and not being able to reason with the other side (because you are so upset with how you feel your needs are not being acknowledged). . Even though the poster I was replying to was insulted by my choice of explanation, I think that it acually cuts through the BS of all these debates and says it how it looks to many people that dont understand how unions portray their members as the worst effected of this economic crisis.

While my post may be interpreted as a Troll or intention to upset people, I can assure you its not . . Neither side is giving ground on these debates. Its highlighted by the constant back and forth bickering from both sides and in general neither side is accepting any explanation from the other.

I believe theres nothing fair about this recession and that we are all having to take different kinds of pain. I believe the miltant unions are doing the public service employees a disservice as they have argued things that really feel like they are suggesting the private sector has not taken pain like the public service.

The militant union will only discuss items that further their cause. . When you ask them to discuss unemployment, paycuts or short time in the private sector they invariably point to a small bunch of bank staff that got moderate payrises as if they represent the whole of the private sector. They ignore any other evidence.

When you ask them to discuss Job guarantee's or guaranteed pension. Again, they ignore it or dress over it with some other waffle. Hundreds of thousands of people, have lost their jobs, are worried about losing their jobs and hundreds of thousands have lost nearly half the values of their pensions. So this is a huge issue and the question of what this is worth in the current economic climate is paramount.

And then . . . . When it suits them, the unions will of course then do comparisons between the public and private sector workers. . Throw out random figures that backs up their arguments (after ignoring above "awkward" debates).

This is why their is so little empathy in general. The public service unions will only debate what strengthens their arguments. A lot of their points completely dismiss the hardships that hundreds of thousands of private sector employees have gone through or are currently going through.

To hundreds and thousands of people in this country, having a 6% pay-cut (if we take tax relief into consideration) along with a 5% pay-cut, sounds simply like part and parcel of this current economic climate. It doesn't sound unreasonable and with the arguments made by the unions, it physically infuriates the majority of us who are worried about our livelihoods.

Many of us have had to accept that this is going to be a tough few years and the quickest way to get out of this mess is by taking pain now.

Many of us accept that there will be things that "aren't fair", but that they are necessary evil's to get the country moving.

Many of us feel that the time for finger pointing and investigations is when we are in a position to give time and energy to this cause.

Many of us feel that in an ideal world, taxing the richer would make perfect sense, but the way economics and capitalism works, it can have negative knock on effects.

Many of us feel that because the public service have the loudest microphone, their voice are being heard above all and at the expense of the rest of us. When that happens, there will inevitably be resentment. One view . One side . . Particularly when that side picks and chooses what it will discuss and makes itself out to be the only victim of the financial tragedy that has gripped our country. .

I have been involved in many different debates on this forum and I empathize with anybody struggling financially or anybody who is facing job losses or paycuts. I believe we are going to have to start accepting that the country we lived in has gone and that the bad times are here to stay for awhile. The more pain we take the sooner, the quicker we will come out of this mess. I think trying to avoid pain is a basic human instinct thats understandable, but if one takes a holistic view of the state of the country, they will understand that its not about picking on any one particular area of society . . Its all about survival . . .

P. Breathnach

sysconp1 wrote: »

... The difference between the frontline and backroom staff is that the Public (AKA the payers of the public service salaries) see the frontline staff actually performing their roles effectively. It is a shame the same cannot be seen of the back room public servants.

The fact that what they do can not be seen by you has not dissuaded you from having a go at them. That's the sort of thing that makes a fair-minded discussion very difficult.

dan_d

I know it's a different country, and they've got a whole pile of other problems with their Government.....but it's interesting to see a different approach.See the link below.I notice there are no negotiations with unions mentioned.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Gordon-Brown-Outlines-Plans-To-Cut-Civil-Service-Jobs-By-20-To-Help-Save-Up-To-3bn-A-Year/Article/200912115494224?lpos=Politics_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15494224_Gordon_Brown_Outlines_Plans_To_Cut_Civil_Service_Jobs_By_20%25_To_Help_Save_Up_To_%3F3bn_A_Year

Riskymove

dan_d wrote: »

but it's interesting to see a different approach.See the link below.

whats different about the approach?

they want to "shave 20% off the pay bill"

how is that different to here?

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

whats different about the approach?

they want to "shave 20% off the pay bill"

how is that different to here?

they are not bothering with the whole social partnership scam

dan_d wrote: »

I notice there are no negotiations with unions mentioned

its interesting that they need to cut PS despite devaluing by 30% and the PS over there being paid a fraction of what they get here

irish_bob

sysconp1 wrote: »

I feel very dissappointed that the frontline public service workers (Garda, Fire, Ambulance and nurses) should be tarred with the same brush as the back office public sherkers. The frontline staff work hard and deserve their pay, whilst the back office staff take an amazing number of sick days and are using the frontline staff to justify their unfeasable pay and conditions.

I feel that the back office staff should stop using the frontline staff to justify their ridiculous demands and get ready for the IMF removing a good proportion of their jobs to streamline the public service once and for all. The frontline staff should setup their own union and seperate once and for all from the useless back office whingers.

i take the opposite view , i believe the so called FRONTLINE workers moves to distance themselves from the rest smack of elitism and make a statement of our jobs are more important and should be exempt from pay cuts

thier can be no caste system in our public sector , no sacred cows , especially in a time of rescession , that would create real division , not the kind of phoney division invented by unions

irish_bob

sysconp1 wrote: »

Based on the fact that the folks I know in Agriculture and fisheries and in other areas of the public service have commented that this is a job for life. Short of murdering someone that there is no way they could get fired. Then add to this the days "Sick" at public expense, such as going out on the pop with friends on a Sunday night and saying as they left the pub "I will take one of my days off sick tomorrow as I don't feel like going in".

This attitude, based on my experience of knowing a number of folks both currently in the public service and ex now in the private sector is common.
Whereas the frontline workers work very hard, often under very difficult situations, with little or no recognition for that work.

So as to your comment of my comments being a rant, I would suggest it is based on fact. I feel much like the rest of the private sector in this regard and I am sure that I am not the only one with these experiences.

the dept of agri certainly is a dossers paradise

ROS123

sysconp1 wrote: »

I feel very dissappointed that the frontline public service workers () should be tarred with the same brush as the back office public sherkers. The frontline staff work hard and deserve their pay, whilst the back office staff take an amazing number of sick days and are using the frontline staff to justify their unfeasable pay and conditions.

I feel that the back office staff should stop using the frontline staff to justify their ridiculous demands and get ready for the IMF removing a good proportion of their jobs to streamline the public service once and for all. The frontline staff should setup their own union and seperate once and for all from the useless back office whingers.

What makes you think that Garda, Fire, Ambulance and nurses work harder than back room staff. Have you evidence to prove this. Take a Garda for instance, if he is on an 8 hour shift, what do they do for the full 8 hours, are they arresting people for the full 8 hours, do you think. How much time do they spend in the station, what do they do when its raining ? Are Firemen putting out fires 8 hours in an 8 hours shift. the same goes on for the others, front line nurses might just be the exception. Do these 'frontline people' not take sick leave?

How would the fronline staff get on if they didn't have people to feed them, clean up after them, pay them ?

ROS123

divide and conquesr betwen public and priovate, then take it a stage further, divide public between frontline and back office. Whats next, traffic corps garda V a guy who walks the beat, a detective ?

Who are the real villains, the people at the top. The people who run this country, some politicians, bankers, business people, the ruling classes will come out of this richer and more ppowerful, thats how it has happened all through histroy and for the future. Let the plebs fight among theirselves. The are laughing down their ruling class noses at the rest of us......

ei.sdraob

ROS123 wrote: »

divide and conquesr betwen public and priovate, then take it a stage further, divide public between frontline and back office. Whats next, traffic corps garda V a guy who walks the beat, a detective ?

Who are the real villains, the people at the top. The people who run this country, some politicians, bankers, business people, the ruling classes will come out of this richer and more ppowerful, thats how it has happened all through histroy and for the future. Let the plebs fight among theirselves. The are laughing down their ruling class noses at the rest of us......

you conveniently forgot to mention the union heads who earn 6figures and have their hands in every pot like FAS

but carry on regardless

ROS123

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you conveniently forgot to mention the union heads who earn 6figures and have their hands in every pot like FAS

but carry on regardless

I didn't deliberately leave them out, I am not sure how much power they do have. Under Benevolent Bertie maybe they had power, not so sure now. But yes include them as well, if you think. My point is that a smalll few, < 1% control the power and will come out of this better than before, while the rest of us, drones, worker ants, plebs whatever, kick the s**t out of each other on here.

Actually, I would include senior civil servants in this ruling class........ very cnetral to the mess we are in...

gerry28

I think we can be fairly certain now that pay will be cut in the budget on wed - I just hope is it weighted fairly.

I am interested to see what will be the next major talking point after the budget as PS paycuts will take a back seat.

I really hope that those who have been calling for paycuts and proclaiming that its in the interests of the country take up the next big elephant in the room - social welfare fraud.

Much of the argument and heated discussion over the past 6 months was for savings of 1.3 million of the public service paybill. If primetime investigates are to be believed then there is anything up to 2 billion being lost to abuse of the social welfare system.

And while were at it we might even begin to lay a bit of pressure on our superrich and ask them to consider paying their taxes in the country they like to call home (when it suits them).

And a reasonable 3rd rate of tax could be considered too.

ei.sdraob

ROS123 wrote: »

I didn't deliberately leave them out, I am not sure how much power they do have. Under Benevolent Bertie maybe they had power, not so sure now. But yes include them as well, if you think. My point is that a smalll few, < 1% control the power and will come out of this better than before, while the rest of us, drones, worker ants, plebs whatever, kick the s**t out of each other on here.

Actually, I would include senior civil servants in this ruling class........ very cnetral to the mess we are in...

holding the whole country ransom is not power?

the union leaders are snout first in the FAS mess as well, and the recent central bank strikes too

groovy 09

I get the vibe that a lot of Public Sector office workers feel that there should be no distinction between them and front line....has anyone ever been to a public hospital and seen the receptionist over stretched by their work ? Does the social welfare office stay open late to deal with the increase in applicants and the backlog so that they can cut the waiting time down for their customers (i.e. us the public) so that people aren't waiting months for payments. Try phoning the Revenue, they seem to change the organisation of what office looks after who/region on a regular basis, it will probably take you about 3 calls. As for FAS, I attended a course through work in Cork - 2.5 days that could have been completed in 1 day....with....an open book exam at the end, incredible waste of time, money , energy and the will to live !!!

groovy 09

Agree - social welfare fraud really needs to be looked at as do some of the benefit entitlements. Another huge cost to the country is the payment of child welfare to those who have children not even living in the country, we are paying out a fortune which is being spent in other economies. It's a mad mad system !

ROS123

ei.sdraob wrote: »

holding the whole country ransom is not power?

the union leaders are snout first in the FAS mess as well, and the recent central bank strikes too

I am not in a union, however how many union leaders on the board of FAS, a majority or a minority, who put them there ?

ROS123

groovy 09 wrote: »

I get the vibe that a lot of Public Sector office workers feel that there should be no distinction between them and front line....has anyone ever been to a public hospital and seen the receptionist over stretched by their work ? Does the social welfare office stay open late to deal with the increase in applicants and the backlog so that they can cut the waiting time down for their customers (i.e. us the public) so that people aren't waiting months for payments. Try phoning the Revenue, they seem to change the organisation of what office looks after who/region on a regular basis, it will probably take you about 3 calls. As for FAS, I attended a course through work in Cork - 2.5 days that could have been completed in 1 day....with....an open book exam at the end, incredible waste of time, money , energy and the will to live !!!

Firstly, what is a front line staff, define what you mean, is it only garda, nurses, firmen, what about teachers, social workers, social welfare officers, or even the receptionist you gneralised about. A recptionist is a front line staff, they meet the public on the front line.

groovy 09

I consider frontline to be those in the emergency services. I worked in an NHStrust as a receptionist and then moved in to the finance department so I know what I am talking about. When I came back to Ireland I took up a contract in a hospital in Dublin, again in the finance dept. I left before the contract was up. I have never worked either before or since in such an environment, I was bored and it was so bureaucratic that it was unreal. An ounce of enthusiasm or initiative was frowned upon by those comfortable in their permanent pensionable jobs who were probably intimidated by anyone who wanted to improve methods or systems.

ParkRunner

gerry28 wrote: »

I really hope that those who have been calling for paycuts and proclaiming that its in the interests of the country take up the next big elephant in the room - social welfare fraud.

Much of the argument and heated discussion over the past 6 months was for savings of 1.3 million of the public service paybill. If primetime investigates are to be believed then there is anything up to 2 billion being lost to abuse of the social welfare system.

It is a bit too convenient the timing of this primetime investigates programme on social welfare fraud so you are probably right. The weekly columns, CSO, RTE, timely government reports will all have a strong theme of social welfare fraud in the near future. Personally I think anyone caught should be listed in the media the same way tax defaulters are.
At least the heat should be taken off the public sector until NAMA falls apart and we need to cough up another few billion.

parsi

groovy 09 wrote: »

I consider frontline to be those in the emergency services. I worked in an NHStrust as a receptionist and then moved in to the finance department so I know what I am talking about. When I came back to Ireland I took up a contract in a hospital in Dublin, again in the finance dept. I left before the contract was up. I have never worked either before or since in such an environment, I was bored and it was so bureaucratic that it was unreal.

Probably a bad example tbh. Finance and HR departments in every organisation are hidebound due to the innate nature of the work and the need to be able to justify every action at any time.

The discussion on frontline is interesting. It's a great buzzword and can mean different things to different folk.

Some folk say it's the fireman who is frontline. What about the mechanic who services the tenders and ensures that the equipment works ? What about the stores clerk who issues the parts and orders new ones ? What about the finance clerk who pays for the parts, the equipment, the training courses ? What about the salaries guy who ensures the fireman gets paid his correct pay and overtime ? What about the Fire Officer who inspects buildings and on whose head any liability claims will fail ? What about the Chief Fire Officer who has to fight for and allocate his resources ?

Some folk say it's the nurse who is frontline. What about the receptionist who will be the first person to meet the agressive drunk or the tearful/worried parents ? What about the phlebotimist who'll draw the drunks blood ? What about the radiologist who'll take and read the x-ray? What about the porter who'll wheel the drunk to x-ray and get a beating for his trouble ? What about the maintenance guy who replaces the bulbs so they can see ? What about the salaries clerk who does the payroll for the 143 grades ? What about the supplies clerk who ensures that the frontline nurse doesn't have to go down to Fannins to buy a cannula ? What about the IT manager who has to ensure that the systems work ?

efb

The IT Systems work in the HSE? Do you think were all SAPs...