My outrage at some members of the public service

P. Breathnach

LordDorington wrote: »

Sorr but I dont think your post was funny, and indeed I doubt it was intended to be.

I thought it was good-humoured. I also thought it made a fair point in a light-hearted way: that one should not choose to ignore the lessons of the past.

LordDorington

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I thought it was good-humoured. I also thought it made a fair point in a light-hearted way: that one should not choose to ignore the lessons of the past.

No one should choose to ignore the lessons of the past? Sorry but thats not what came across.

sysconp1

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

ah come off it Ardmacha, did you not get the memo about the Private Sector being the beacon of shining hope? You know the one where it was shown that the private sector does no wrong and that all things evil can be traced back to the public service.

dude, there's no point in arguning for a balanced view here anymore. Blinkers have been handed out (to all sides!) and they've been superglued on.

Ad they are quite comfy too

Riskymove

LordDorington wrote: »

Sorr but I dont think your post was funny, and indeed I doubt it was intended to be.

well I am sorry if you didnt find it so, but that was the intention

whatever offence you might have imagined was not intended

LordDorington

Riskymove wrote: »

well I am sorry if you didnt find it so, but that was the intention

whatever offence you might have imagined was not intended

I did not "imagine" any offence.:P

deen

Reading some of the thread, got tired after a while with the whole them an us stuff. I'm a fireman with 21 years service, last year I had a gross pay of €21, 340. from which I pay tax, prsi, and now a pension levy. I won't however receive a pension when I retire at 55 but will receive a gratuity of approx €38,000.
I am on call 24/7 every day with the exception of 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks annual leave. I am similar to the vast majority of firefighters in rural Ireland i.e outside the cities of Dublin Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Dundalk for some reason. For the recent day of action we agreed to provide the usual cover but refused to accept pay for the day (I know that really hurt the bosses).
In my 20 years service I have been involved in all sorts of incidents, some dangerous some not so dangerous. I have seen 19 fatilities in that time from children as young a 4 up to OAP's.
Am I well paid?
Yes for the ammount of hours I actually have to work I am well paid, for the ammount of time I have to tell my kids that I can't take them to a match or to the cineama etc. No I'm not well paid.
What I object to is the way that people on this thread and many others have decided that one mans pay slip is justification for deciding that all in the PS are on a good thing and for those in the frontline services trying to use emotional blackmail to justify their wages.

I beleive that those in the private sector who think that the PS should accept a paycut without a battle are living in fantasy land just as I beleive that those in the PS who beleive that its not going to happen are also on the road to disappointment.

I just wish everyone would stop the blame game, I have never yet met a worker who would refuse a pay rise nor have I met one who thought a cut in pay was a good idea, unless the pay in question was someone elses.

Ashanti

Just to clear up a couple of misconceptions about the public sector.
1. Contrary to popular belief, we don't all have secure jobs. I work on a contract basis rolled over from year to year. some contracts are long term but only if there is sufficient money to pay them, otherwise the positions are made reduntant. There are many in my institute who are on different types of contracts and will now lose their jobs.
2. I have an MSc and other qualifications and earn less than 50K.
3. You don't get a great pension unless you've been in the sector for decades.

And furthermore:
When the times were good, we were still earning a moderate wage compared to many in the private sector who made a killing in extortionate prices for goods and services, bonuses, perks etc. We did not. I don't recall the private sector being quite as vocal about the public/private differences then.

While many people have lost their jobs in the private sector, including members of my own family, there are still many of those who made their money and still have it. I'm talking the big earners, top bankers, developers etc. the govt should be going after them to recover this in the form of taxes and other means open to the government instead of now cutting the pay of the low to middle income eraners in the public sector. To think they they are even cutting pay to those who earn less than 20k is downright immoral. Of course the govt wont' do that because those at the top end were buddies with the government. it was a case of you scratch my back etc.The govt has done a very good job, with the help of the media, in dividing the public and private sectors and thus directing the anger away from where it should be directed ie at the government and those who brought our country to its knees. And yes, the public sector requires reform, however a blanket cut in wages is not reform and all it will do is discourage the public sector from spending unnecessarily having a further knock on effect on private business. The government in league with the big businesses, developers and bankers and the high earning public sector staff have a lot to answer for and they should be made to answer instead of scapegoating the majority of the not highly paid public sector.

jimmmy

deen wrote: »

I have never yet met a worker who would refuse a pay rise nor have I met one who thought a cut in pay was a good idea, unless the pay in question was someone elses.

There are more than a few people in the public sector ( eg some who work as lecturers and in hospitals ) who think their pay is too high and unsustainable.

jimmmy

Ashanti wrote: »

. To think they they are even cutting pay to those who earn less than 20k is downright immoral.

No they will not. The people who should pay are those who earn the most. The average pay is 50k a year in the public service , excluding health. The HSE would be even more.

Lothaar

Ashanti wrote: »

And furthermore:
When the times were good, we were still earning a moderate wage compared to many in the private sector who made a killing in extortionate prices for goods and services, bonuses, perks etc. We did not. I don't recall the private sector being quite as vocal about the public/private differences then.

Dude: benchmarking.

My wife got a nice little increase in Sept '08, as the recession came crashing down. Then, in Feb, her annual grade increase came through. The pension levy took SOME of those increases back, but not all. She's still earning more than she was in August '08. And she's not alone.

I find it quite scary that there are so many public service workers who genuinely believe that they have a right to 'righteous indignation'. Seriously guys, you have it good.

K-9

opinion guy wrote: »

Myth 1 - the IMF coming in. Seriously do people honestly think this ? Heard a radio interview with IMF official the other day who said that they weren't remotely worried about having to intervene in Ireland that we had loads of money. And they are right we got 54billion to give to the banks. So where did this whole idea come from then ? Hmmm could it be that FF wanted a big scary threat to make us swallow the bitter NAMA pill ???

They will not have to be asked in if the cuts are implemented, cuts that no matter what way you look at it, require pay cuts.

noodler

This is such a touchy subject. It is human nature to protect what you have - nobody is going to admit they require a paycut.

However the country, like most companies in the recession, has saw it's revenue stream reduced by the recession and must act accordingly (finally). If job losses are off the cards then what alternative is there?

Of course paycuts should not be done willy-nilly, if what someone said in here is true then obviously a firefighter on call at 24/7 (bar a weekend off a month) earning 20,000 shouldn't have his wage cut (Ignore those who say you have F-all to do in between fires but wait around).

Lothaar

noodler wrote: »

This is such a touchy subject. It is human nature to protect what you have - nobody is going to admit they require a paycut.

Nonsense. I admit that my wife requires a paycut. A cut to her pay directly affects me, as both of our incomes contribute to our household.

I believe this, as I can see how this would affect the bigger picture.

What you're saying is that most people are selfish and short-sighted. That's exactly my point - they need to cop on and accept that they need a pay-cut.

irish_bob

ardmacha wrote: »

Whether its was Drumpot or David McWilliams this is not entirely feasible, the government can just cut PS salaries, regardless of the consequences (and they will be half way there by tomorrow). But the private sector gougers in non traded sectors will not cut their charges.

some wont but most will but i agree such an approach would require a collective group effort for the sake of the entire nation , such a bold move could be a roaring success or an unmittigated disaster , anyway thier is no way a fianna fail goverment would do it so its a pipe dream , excellent debate going on regarding the piece at a rival political forum btw

ps , hope i dont get a rap on the knuckles for that plug

noodler

Lothaar wrote: »

Nonsense. I admit that my wife requires a paycut. A cut to her pay directly affects me, as both of our incomes contribute to our household.

I believe this, as I can see how this would affect the bigger picture.

What you're saying is that most people are selfish and short-sighted. That's exactly my point - they need to cop on and accept that they need a pay-cut.

Okay then, 95%+ of people.

Does your wife feel a paycut is justified by the way? I mean that was my point - not what their Spouse's think.

I fully believe most people are selfish and many short-sighted alright.

I will support the government to the hilt if it goes through with the cuts.

murphaph

deen wrote: »

Reading some of the thread, got tired after a while with the whole them an us stuff. I'm a fireman with 21 years service, last year I had a gross pay of €21, 340. from which I pay tax, prsi, and now a pension levy. I won't however receive a pension when I retire at 55 but will receive a gratuity of approx €38,000.
I am on call 24/7 every day with the exception of 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks annual leave. I am similar to the vast majority of firefighters in rural Ireland i.e outside the cities of Dublin Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Dundalk for some reason. For the recent day of action we agreed to provide the usual cover but refused to accept pay for the day (I know that really hurt the bosses).
In my 20 years service I have been involved in all sorts of incidents, some dangerous some not so dangerous. I have seen 19 fatilities in that time from children as young a 4 up to OAP's.
Am I well paid?
Yes for the ammount of hours I actually have to work I am well paid, for the ammount of time I have to tell my kids that I can't take them to a match or to the cineama etc. No I'm not well paid.
What I object to is the way that people on this thread and many others have decided that one mans pay slip is justification for deciding that all in the PS are on a good thing and for those in the frontline services trying to use emotional blackmail to justify their wages.

I beleive that those in the private sector who think that the PS should accept a paycut without a battle are living in fantasy land just as I beleive that those in the PS who beleive that its not going to happen are also on the road to disappointment.

I just wish everyone would stop the blame game, I have never yet met a worker who would refuse a pay rise nor have I met one who thought a cut in pay was a good idea, unless the pay in question was someone elses.

Are you a retained (volunteer in the UK, Germany etc.) firefighter or a full time firefighter? If you are a full ttime firefighter then your story is BS-no full time fire fighter in Ireland is on 21k, nevermind after 21 years service. If you are a retained firefighter (ie, you are a volunteer and are supposed to have a normal full time job doing something else, like lifeboatmen etc.) then 21k seems an extraordinarily large sum to receive for what is completely voluntary work here in Germany (no pay of any kind-you do the work for the honour and that is your reward) and receives (I think) 10 pounds per hour per call out in Scotland.

LordDorington

Ashanti wrote: »

Just to clear up a couple of misconceptions about the public sector.
1. Contrary to popular belief, we don't all have secure jobs. I work on a contract basis rolled over from year to year. some contracts are long term but only if there is sufficient money to pay them, otherwise the positions are made reduntant. There are many in my institute who are on different types of contracts and will now lose their jobs.
2. I have an MSc and other qualifications and earn less than 50K.
3. You don't get a great pension unless you've been in the sector for decades.

And furthermore:
When the times were good, we were still earning a moderate wage compared to many in the private sector who made a killing in extortionate prices for goods and services, bonuses, perks etc. We did not. I don't recall the private sector being quite as vocal about the public/private differences then.

While many people have lost their jobs in the private sector, including members of my own family, there are still many of those who made their money and still have it. I'm talking the big earners, top bankers, developers etc. the govt should be going after them to recover this in the form of taxes and other means open to the government instead of now cutting the pay of the low to middle income eraners in the public sector. To think they they are even cutting pay to those who earn less than 20k is downright immoral. Of course the govt wont' do that because those at the top end were buddies with the government. it was a case of you scratch my back etc.The govt has done a very good job, with the help of the media, in dividing the public and private sectors and thus directing the anger away from where it should be directed ie at the government and those who brought our country to its knees. And yes, the public sector requires reform, however a blanket cut in wages is not reform and all it will do is discourage the public sector from spending unnecessarily having a further knock on effect on private business. The government in league with the big businesses, developers and bankers and the high earning public sector staff have a lot to answer for and they should be made to answer instead of scapegoating the majority of the not highly paid public sector.

Unfortunately the top earners, big bankers etc are the minority. The fact remains that the private sector has been hit the worst overall. Of the near half a million people on the live reg, very few are public sector workers.

noodler

murphaph wrote: »

Are you a retained (volunteer in the UK, Germany etc.) firefighter or a full time firefighter? If you are a full ttime firefighter then your story is BS-no full time fire fighter in Ireland is on 21k, nevermind after 21 years service. If you are a retained firefighter (ie, you are a volunteer and are supposed to have a normal full time job doing something else, like lifeboatmen etc.) then 21k seems an extraordinarily large sum to receive for what is completely voluntary work here in Germany (no pay of any kind-you do the work for the honour and that is your reward) and receives (I think) 10 pounds per hour per call out in Scotland.

I have to say I was suspicious.

Rookster

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ESB is not in the public sector

....

ESB is a semi state body. We the taxpayer are the biggest shareholder. When the ESB throw money away, this is our money.

Get your facts straight!

oh well

Ashanti wrote: »

And furthermore:
When the times were good, we were still earning a moderate wage compared to many in the private sector who made a killing in extortionate prices for goods and services, bonuses, perks etc. We did not. I don't recall the private sector being quite as vocal about the public/private differences then.

.

How many times does it need to be spelled out that it wasn't the whole private sector who made a killing in the good times. There are many thousands who never made more than their wages and never saw sight of a bonus or perk. Many didn't even get the national wage agreement increases (dh's company didn't pay increases for last 4 years - not cos it didn't have the money, it was just able to get away with it. Even when labour court told them to pay the agreements, company still pleaded non ability to pay. This despite the fact it was a shining light within its global parent company.


I haven't had an increase in 3 years - and my hours are now cut to one day a week and if the Public Servants who run the redundancy repayments section don't get off their collective backsides soon and process rebates due since last May, I'll be cut even more. Boss just hasn't enough to keep payment me until he gets the rebates due to the company.

So grow up all the PS who keep bleating about the supposed killings.

danman

I have to say, as this public/private debate continues on the radio, the more annoyed I get.

A Guard on the radio earlier was claiming that one of his collegues had just 80euro per week left from his wage packet after all his deductions came out.

What Bull.

He may have been talking about his mortgage and loans and that is what he has left, but he called it deductions. Who are they trying to kid?

He made a free choice to get a mortgage, buy the big car and get a loan for that. He decided to rack up his credit card bill. It was his free choice.

To try and get public sympathy for his bad budget decisions is fooling no one.

Some one from the GRA claimed that some Guards only have 7euro per week after deductions. Eamon Keane asked him about this claim, but didn't push the issue with him.

I'm only using the Guards examples, because they have been the most vocal over the past 2 days.

These unrealistic type of examples, do nothing for their cause. Most people can see through these stupid statements and they only cause more anger in common people.

ei.sdraob

Rookster wrote: »

ESB is a semi state body. We the taxpayer are the biggest shareholder. When the ESB throw money away, this is our money.

Get your facts straight!

you right it is semi-state (heres a gold star)

but it is not public sector as claimed earlier

theres a difference

and my facts are quite straight and yes i did work for them

deen

I am a Retained Fireman as indeed are the majority of firefighters in Ireland with the exception of those who work in the cities mentioned. I have an issue with the concept that those who work in these cities are "Fulltime" but only work a standard 39 hour week, where as those in the retained service are on duty at all times but are considered to be "part time".

As I said in my original post for the ammount of hours I actually work I'm well paid I don't have a problem with that. For the ammount of disruption it causes to my home life and the ammount of time I have to be available I'm not well paid. I don't have a problem with that either I knew the conditions when I signed up.

Just pointing out that taking one persons payslip in either the public or private sector and using it to paint all in that sector in a particiular light is unfair and frankly a waste of time. I may get a call tonight to an incident in which a private sector worker loses his life, I may lose my life at this call, will it matter to either of our families what we worked at when we are gone. No it won't.

noodler

deen wrote: »

I am a Retained Fireman as indeed are the majority of firefighters in Ireland with the exception of those who work in the cities mentioned. I have an issue with the concept that those who work in these cities are "Fulltime" but only work a standard 39 hour week, where as those in the retained service are on duty at all times but are considered to be "part time".

As I said in my original post for the ammount of hours I actually work I'm well paid I don't have a problem with that. For the ammount of disruption it causes to my home life and the ammount of time I have to be available I'm not well paid. I don't have a problem with that either I knew the conditions when I signed up.

Just pointing out that taking one persons payslip in either the public or private sector and using it to paint all in that sector in a particiular light is unfair and frankly a waste of time. I may get a call tonight to an incident in which a private sector worker loses his life, I may lose my life at this call, will it matter to either of our families what we worked at when we are gone. No it won't.

Now, I am only going to ask a few questions out of pure curiosity - try not to go all wrathful on me.

As a retained Firefighter, how often afre you called out per week?

Do you have another job? (Probably a personal question but I only ask for the sake of the financial arguments that are raging in the thread).

Now the biggie, without sounding like a total bastard (because I don't actually know), how often are firefighters in this country killed in fires? Is there any figures available? As I said I am not disputing the inherent dangers of entering a burning building but some people work in shops etc in crappy areas where they get held up, threatened etc regularly.

I don't know if it is possible to ask the last paragraph there without somebody going mad but lets see.

danman

noodler wrote: »

Now, I am only going to ask a few questions out of pure curiosity - try not to go all wrathful on me.

As a retained Firefighter, how often afre you called out per week?

Do you have another job? (Probably a personal question but I only ask for the sake of the financial arguments that are raging in the thread).

Now the biggie, without sounding like a total bastard (because I don't actually know), how often are firefighters in this country killed in fires? Is there any figures available? As I said I am not disputing the inherent dangers of entering a burning building but some people work in shops etc in crappy areas where they get held up, threatened etc regularly.

I don't know if it is possible to ask the last paragraph there without somebody going mad but lets see.

Take an example from the private sector.
10 fatal injuries so far this year in the construction sector.
Public administration and defence; compulsory social security, 1 death.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Statistics/Fatal_Injury/

There is a lot of coverage in the media about certain public sector workers risking their lives everyday. Sympathy is warrented of course, but that is not the only sector that risk their lives in the working day.

The statistics above show this.

ardmacha

I think it says a lot about attitudes in safety in the private sector.

noodler

danman wrote: »

Take an example from the private sector.
10 fatal injuries so far this year in the construction sector.
Public administration and defence; compulsory social security, 1 death.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Statistics/Fatal_Injury/

There is a lot of coverage in the media about certain public sector workers risking their lives everyday. Sympathy is warrented of course, but that is not the only sector that risk their lives in the working day.

The statistics above show this.

I agree and that is the point I am trying to make/investigate without sounding ungrateful to men and women who risk their lives to help others.

Although I would mention, as you and we are all aware, that we need to take into account the relative sizes of each workforce in any such comparison.

noodler

ardmacha wrote: »

I think it says a lot about attitudes in safety in the private sector.

Come on now, don't throw your toys out of your pram.

danman

ardmacha wrote: »

I think it says a lot about attitudes in safety in the private sector.

No matter how hard sites try to make everything safe, there will always be deaths. It's a fact of life for everyone in the construction sector.
It's a dangerous industry, it has nothing to do with attitudes.

There are very few similar examples of this dangerous work in the Public sector. That was not my point.

My point is that being a front line member of the public sector is not nearly as dangerous to you health as the construction sector, yet you don't see posters on billboards of builders with broken limbs etc.

This is a tactic that is over used by frontline workers.

Don't get me wrong, I believe no frountline worker should get any abuse by gurriers, but it's part of the job. Every one that enters these jobs, know the circumstances of their workplace.

I've always known the dangers of my industry, I count myself lucky that over the past 20 years, I've never been seriously injured. But I don't push the danger of my job as a sympathy vote.

P. Breathnach

noodler wrote: »

... Now the biggie, without sounding like a total bastard (because I don't actually know), how often are firefighters in this country killed in fires? Is there any figures available? As I said I am not disputing the inherent dangers of entering a burning building but some people work in shops etc in crappy areas where they get held up, threatened etc regularly...

danman wrote: »

Take an example from the private sector.
10 fatal injuries so far this year in the construction sector.
Public administration and defence; compulsory social security, 1 death.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Statistics/Fatal_Injury/

There is a lot of coverage in the media about certain public sector workers risking their lives everyday. Sympathy is warrented of course, but that is not the only sector that risk their lives in the working day.

The statistics above show this.

So firemen have to die to justify their pay?

They take on dangerous duties and, because they train and develop suitable skills, they keep their fatality rates down. But they still do work that is inherently dangerous, and is very difficult. It is often very distressing, as they deal with people who are badly injured, and they deal with fatalities.