My outrage at some members of the public service

Scofflaw

coach23 wrote: »

this thread began with the issue of a firemans pay thats what it's been about generalizations will ruin the debate so we're not talking about the entire public sector nor the entire private sector it was a specific job, admittedly i brought up the gardai and branched out but it was in response to a post regarding the entire public sector

Fair point - unfortunately your post reminded me of a bus poster I saw today from one of the PS unions showing firemen, gardai, and nurses, with the slogan "sharing the risks" or some equally antagonising equivalent thereof, so my trigger finger is a little twitchy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

djk1000

coach23 wrote: »

What private sector colleague do you speak of?

there are no private sector firemen or gardai there cant possibly be a comparison to any job in the private sector because there is no alternative in the private sector if you want to do this job it Has to be public sector. We do the worst jobs no one else wanted to do why shouldn't we be compensated for it

Applications to become a fireman or garda are always over subscribed, applications for clerical officer panels are always oversubscribed they could be paid a lot less and I'd wager that there would still be many more applications than positions. So I don't get why you're saying that they are the jobs no one else wanted to do.

I'd love to hear from a pensions actuary on here, I'd love to know how much the pension levy actually contributes to the defined benefit pension which public servants receive. I'll tell you one thing for sure, I invest in a pension, I invest more than most public servants are paying in a pension levy, I have no idea what my pension will be at the end of the day, unless there is a miracle it will be substantially less than the average public service pension.

Anyone that come on here and even try to justify €50k for a fireman with 3 years service really needs to cop on. You've been brainwashed by the beardies in your unions telling you for years that the private sector is on the pigs back.

coach23

djk1000 wrote: »

Applications to become a fireman or garda are always over subscribed, applications for clerical officer panels are always oversubscribed they could be paid a lot less and I'd wager that there would still be many more applications than positions. So I don't get why you're saying that they are the jobs no one else wanted to do.

this is a good point in fairness but fire service (and gardai since i brought them up earlier) are under manned talk to anyone driving an ambulance or walking the beat any night of the week and in fairness it's rare that they'll say it's quiet they can always do with more man power. obvious financial restraints that i'm no stupid enough to argue against dictate manpower at station/district level i wouldn't expect a blank cheque for recruitment its not plausable

I'd love to hear from a pensions actuary on here, I'd love to know how much the pension levy actually contributes to the defined benefit pension which public servants receive. I'll tell you one thing for sure, I invest in a pension, I invest more than most public servants are paying in a pension levy, I have no idea what my pension will be at the end of the day, unless there is a miracle it will be substantially less than the average public service pension.

the wording of the ponsions levy bill read on the very first page that, the money collected by the pension levy need not attribute to the members pension and shall be used as the government see fit. so i would say very very little of the money recovered from the pensions levy goes into a pension at all

Anyone that come on here and even try to justify €50k for a fireman with 3 years service really needs to cop on. You've been brainwashed by the beardies in your unions telling you for years that the private sector is on the pigs back.

does it matter to an outsider (not in the job therefore not worried about a junior man is earning more than him) how much a fireman of 3 years is earning does the fact that he has only 3 years service make his chance of dying in a fire beside a man of 20 years any less?

as for gardai a ridiculously high percentage of members die within 5 years of retiring due to the effects of shift work and stress built up over minimum 30 years service the pension doesn't seem to mean much then

Sarn

djk1000 wrote: »

I'd love to know how much the pension levy actually contributes to the defined benefit pension which public servants receive. I'll tell you one thing for sure, I invest in a pension, I invest more than most public servants are paying in a pension levy, I have no idea what my pension will be at the end of the day, unless there is a miracle it will be substantially less than the average public service pension.

The pension levy isn't the only contribution that is made to the pension by the PS employee. Unfortunately, saying that, the pension levy does not go into the pension.

The government should have started a benchmarking process at the time of the last budget (preferably before) in anticipation of this eventuality. While not everyone would have agreed with it, at least it would have provided some justification for the adjustment in salaries instead of this one-size fits all approach.

baalthor

Chief--- wrote: »

Just for the record.

Alot of Firemen, Nurses and Gardai obtained degrees in university before they chose their career in the Emergency Services.

Dont know about the rest of the Emergency Services but Gardai on completion of their training graduate with a Bachelor of Arts Degree. So many have two degrees and a few have MA's and MSc's

I don't see why having a Degree per se should entitle anyone to a salary increase. For example, every teacher with a Honours Degree or a Masters gets a salary bonus (don't know if this is true for the Gardai).

I know people love these comparisions but having a degree in most private companies doesn't lead to any salary increase or bonus.

coach23 wrote: »

.... We do the worst jobs no one else wanted to do why shouldn't we be compensated for it

I don't think this is the best way to make your point.

Jobs such as Fireman, Garda, Primary teacher and Army (esp officers) are nearly always over-subscribed.
The uniformed professions especially are held in very high esteem by large sections of the population.
If you look at the Military or ES Forums on boards they are full of posts from people who are desperate to get into these professions(even during Celtic Tiger times).
There are even people who will volunteer to do these jobs for no remuneration (e.g Austria, parts of US).

On the other hand I doubt there are very many volunteer accountants or health inspectors.

coach23

I don't think this is the best way to make your point.

Jobs such as Fireman, Garda, Primary teacher and Army (esp officers) are nearly always over-subscribed.
The uniformed professions especially are held in very high esteem by large sections of the population.
If you look at the Military or ES Forums on boards they are full of posts from people who are desperate to get into these professions(even during Celtic Tiger times).
There are even people who will volunteer to do these jobs for no remuneration (e.g Austria, parts of US).

On the other hand I doubt there are very many volunteer accountants or health inspectors.

have a look 2 posts up lad i addressed this point and acceded to some parts of it but argued for the rest.

And as for volunteer accountants or health inspectors you do choose to go to college for little or no money for years before you get the job (if available) then chose the job to go for same as ES/military you chose the job. and if there are people who wish to do the job in the gardai, military, fire servies, paramedic for free theres nothing stopping them the recruitment embargo does not apply to volunteer services ( submission made by reserve defense forces ~v~ the minister for finance) they can become a garda reserve, join the reserve defense forces (f.c.a./an slua muiri) civil defence(auxillary fire service) or st' johns ambulance.

as for military in the US there are huge signing up/re-enlistment bonuses for joining the military they will pay your entire college tuition fees for 5 years service after you have finished college and they proivde full housing when you are not in a war zone, thats a house on base not a room to share with 8 others like cathal brugha barracks. I cant quote austria i'll take your word for it but it seems highly unlikely a member of the eurozone has a military that they dont pay but i may be misunderstanding your point

BrianD3

Count Dooku wrote: »

It doesn’t matter
Average income in whole private industry, from cleaners to directors and millionaires is only 32K

if that's the average industrial wage you're talking about then it is defined as follows
"Industrial workers were defined as operatives, maintenance workers, storekeepers, packers, cleaners, basic supervisory staff and apprentices. Managerial, professional, technical and clerical staff were not included in the calculation of the average industrial wage"

If the people in bold above were included, the average private sector wage would be much higher.

Scofflaw

BrianD3 wrote: »

if that's the average industrial wage you're talking about then it is defined as follows
"Industrial workers were defined as operatives, maintenance workers, storekeepers, packers, cleaners, basic supervisory staff and apprentices. Managerial, professional, technical and clerical staff were not included in the calculation of the average industrial wage"

If the people in bold above were included, the average private sector wage would be much higher.

Well, here's the 2007 average pay rates by sector:



cordially,
Scofflaw

dvpower

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1116/partnership.html

Senior civil servants have decided to take part in next week's one-day strike, in protest over planned cuts to the public sector pay bill.
Some 3,000 higher grade civil servants - members of the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants - will join teachers, nurses and other public sector staff in next Tuesday's action, organised by ICTU.
The AHCPS has said its members have voted in favour of strike action on because they feel they are being scapegoated and facing inequitable treatment.

These are senior managers in the CS, on €60,000 - €100,000.

In what parallel universe do we live, where even the senior mangement go out on strike?

Sconsey

coach23 wrote: »

<snip> We do the worst jobs no one else wanted to do why shouldn't we be compensated for it

I'm sure you are regretting that statement at this stage....


Anyway, I think it's fair to say that there are some in the public service that are paid a fair wage (maybe even not piad enough) but there are far too many that are effectively overpaid. The government needs to be smart about the cuts and make sure not to shaft the lower paid civil servents.

My question: is a fireman with three years experience, on 50K a year, considered one of the lower paid? I hope not, it seems like an awful lot to be paying. Don't bother coming back with the 'he's doing a dangerous job no one else would do', it's not really a great argument. There are plenty that would do it if given the opportunity. Someone said he's probably on call or working long hours...I'd be fairly sure he's getting paid a premium for that too.

ghost_ie

djk1000 wrote: »

Applications to become a fireman or garda are always over subscribed, applications for clerical officer panels are always oversubscribed they could be paid a lot less and I'd wager that there would still be many more applications than positions. So I don't get why you're saying that they are the jobs no one else wanted to do.

I'd love to hear from a pensions actuary on here, I'd love to know how much the pension levy actually contributes to the defined benefit pension which public servants receive. I'll tell you one thing for sure, I invest in a pension, I invest more than most public servants are paying in a pension levy, I have no idea what my pension will be at the end of the day, unless there is a miracle it will be substantially less than the average public service pension.

Anyone that come on here and even try to justify €50k for a fireman with 3 years service really needs to cop on. You've been brainwashed by the beardies in your unions telling you for years that the private sector is on the pigs back.

Our politicians are public servants too. They do a lot less for this country than firemen, garda, teachers and nurses. The salary of one TD would pay for 2 firemen or 3 nurses. Why is there no call for a cut in both the number of TD's and their salaries?

Scofflaw

Sconsey wrote: »

I'm sure you are regretting that statement at this stage....


Anyway, I think it's fair to say that there are some in the public service that are paid a fair wage (maybe even not piad enough) but there are far too many that are effectively overpaid. The government needs to be smart about the cuts and make sure not to shaft the lower paid civil servents.

My question: is a fireman with three years experience, on 50K a year, considered one of the lower paid? I hope not, it seems like an awful lot to be paying. Don't bother coming back with the 'he's doing a dangerous job no one else would do', it's not really a great argument. There are plenty that would do it if given the opportunity. Someone said he's probably on call or working long hours...I'd be fairly sure he's getting paid a premium for that too.

And, while we're at it, if these are "the worst jobs no one else wanted to do", then where on earth are we getting volunteer fire-fighters, St. John's Ambulance volunteers, Mountain Rescue volunteers, the Garda Reserve, Simon Community volunteers, Samaritans' volunteers, Rape Crisis Centre volunteers, and so on, and so on, and so on?

cordially,
Scofflaw

opinion guy

baalthor wrote: »

I know people love these comparisions but having a degree in most private companies doesn't lead to any salary increase or bonus.

Um yes they do. Except in private sector everyone's pay is individualised. But generally having a masters or phd gets you higher pay.


I must protest this idea of public service jobs for life. Tonnes of public servants are on temporary contracts. Tonnes of temp teachers have been let go. Lots of temp nurses, physios, doctor jobs have also been done away with. Under the guise of a hiring freeze. Of course the reason they had these people on temp contracts to begin with was precisely so they could be gotten rid of easily. It should also be noticed that many of these were agency workers and as such more expensive than permanent staff. Idiot unions don't even seem to notice. Press don't really publicise it. Blatant mismanagement that's just ignored.



Hahahahaha the senior civil servants are going on strike now ? thats a laugh. Bet you the country will work better with them out

starbelgrade

I have to question - how dangerous is it actually to be a fireman in Ireland? I'd hazard a guess that on a year to year basis, there are more deaths in the fishing, construction & commercial driving industries.

Just a thought.

Sconsey

starbelgrade wrote: »

I have to question - how dangerous is it actually to be a fireman in Ireland? I'd hazard a guess that on a year to year basis, there are more deaths in the fishing, construction & commercial driving industries.

Just a thought.

In defence of the emergency services it appears to be a tough job and they get my upmost respect, there's more to it than the risk of death (stress, trauma, etc.). I should have mentioned that in my earlier post. Still, 50 grand for three years experience seems a lot.

thebman

Chief--- wrote: »

Just for the record.

Alot of Firemen, Nurses and Gardai obtained degrees in university before they chose their career in the Emergency Services.

You shouldn't get paid for having a degree if it isn't relevant to your job.

Its just silly to reward someone for having skills completely irrelevant to the job they do.

Scofflaw

opinion guy wrote: »

Um yes they do. Except in private sector everyone's pay is individualised. But generally having a masters or phd gets you higher pay.


I must protest this idea of public service jobs for life. Tonnes of public servants are on temporary contracts. Tonnes of temp teachers have been let go. Lots of temp nurses, physios, doctor jobs have also been done away with. Under the guise of a hiring freeze. Of course the reason they had these people on temp contracts to begin with was precisely so they could be gotten rid of easily. It should also be noticed that many of these were agency workers and as such more expensive than permanent staff. Idiot unions don't even seem to notice. Press don't really publicise it. Blatant mismanagement that's just ignored.

Just to correct a minor point there - agency workers aren't more expensive than permanent staff. They may be paid more, but permanent staff costs are a greater multiple of salary than agency staff costs - we used to budget 2-2.5 times salary as the total costs of a permanent worker, whereas hourly or daily-rated contract staff cost little more than their pay.

That's why people use them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

And, while we're at it, if these are "the worst jobs no one else wanted to do", then where on earth are we getting volunteer fire-fighters, St. John's Ambulance volunteers, Mountain Rescue volunteers, the Garda Reserve, Simon Community volunteers, Samaritans' volunteers, Rape Crisis Centre volunteers, and so on, and so on, and so on?

Because we are fortunate in that some members of our community are motivated by things other than money -- most particularly by a wish to look after people in difficulty.

It looks as if they use up so much of their time in altruistic endeavour that they have none left for activities such as posting on boards.

Tony46

starbelgrade wrote: »

I have to question - how dangerous is it actually to be a fireman in Ireland? I'd hazard a guess that on a year to year basis, there are more deaths in the fishing, construction & commercial driving industries.

Just a thought.

Not too dangerous. In Ireland the fires arent half as hot as the ones in the UK or US!!!!

baalthor

coach23 wrote: »

have a look 2 posts up lad i addressed this point and acceded to some parts of it but argued for the rest.

Sorry they typed faster than me:)

coach23 wrote: »

I cant quote austria i'll take your word for it but it seems highly unlikely a member of the eurozone has a military that they dont pay but i may be misunderstanding your point

Ah, I meant the Austrian fire service, outside the biggest cities it's all volunteer and smaller US cities also have volunteer fire departments.
I'm not suggesting BTW that we pay our fire-fighters zero or even less than €50k !

I was just countering your point that these are jobs that no-one wants to do; Scofflaw gave even more examples of people volunteering for these kinds of position. But lots of us have made this point as you've acknowledged.

opinion guy wrote: »

Um yes they do. Except in private sector everyone's pay is individualised. But generally having a masters or phd gets you higher pay.

It's correct that people with degrees have higher incomes on average than those who don't.
But that doesn't mean that a degree gets you higher pay.
Many professions (e.g teacher, doctor, dentist, engineer) require a degree to gain employment and these often tend to be higher paid professions.
Also people with degrees usually come from the higher income groups in society anyway.

But a typical private sector employer will not automatically give you a bonus for having a degree.

Think about it: Say BigCorp multinational has two employees Jane and Jim,who do the same job (say project management) for the same pay and work equally hard and get the same results on projects.

Jim has a degree while Jane has the Leaving Cert.
Why would the company pay Jim more just for having a degree? If they did they are just wasting their money and in my experience they tend not to do this.

Now some companies might hire only people with certain degrees or levels of degree into particular positions. This is because they've found that these people do better in work on average than those who don't have a degree. So in this case the degree is a way of measuring the person's intellect and ability to work hard so it's effectively a proxy aptitude test.

Tony46

Drawing Dead wrote: »

i always assumed that all this public sector bashing had to have some truth in it as where there is smoke there is fire. however i always thought that things were exaggerated and people in the public sector weren't really on oversized wages and only sitting about drinking tea all day. i had sympathy for the marchers last week as the unions told us most public sector works are on modest wages but i also know our government hasn't got much of a choice as they have to lower their expenditure, which made me more sympathetic to these people as their modest wages are going to decrease with or without them protesting.
my opinion changed today.
i saw my friends' pay slip.
he's a fireman, and he's been one for just over 3 years, he's set to earn just under 50,000 euro this year.
he was marching last week, protesting against a cut to his pay.
i know people will say firemen do a dangerous job and save lives and they deserve that pay but this is the real world and peoples wages are structured on the amount of qualifications, training and experience you have, and the responsibility bestowed upon you. to put this into context my brother is a civil engineer and has been working in the industry for just over 3 years, same as my fireman friend. he works for one of the biggest civil engineering companies in the country and his work involves being in charge of very large building sites. he is currently being paid about 38,000 euro, he has just taken a 6% pay cut and is working 55hours a week as his company is obviously understaffed at the moment with cost cutting measures. he is on a salary so doesn't get paid overtime, just has to work to get the job done. he is doing this because he has a thing i like to call moral responsibility which i feel some public sector workers don't have. if the employees at my brothers company didn't take the pay cuts or work over time the company will go bust and they will all be out of a job.

some people in this country have gotten used to the oversized wages they got during the boom period and we laughed at our European neighbours as we were some of the highest paid workers in the EU. this was obviously silly and now we have to amend our pay structures. it is completely unsustainable to pay people these inflated wages and the knowledge of what my friend actually earns has made me incredibly angry that people can't see past their own selfish gains and instead whinge about having their pay corrected to a normal and sustainable amount.

i know people will say that i'm taring the public sector with one brush, but i don't doubt there are people in the public sector getting paid the amount they are worth. i'm giving out about this one persons pay, and he can't be the only person being paid more than he should be.

So lets take your brother for example. Before his 6% pay cut he was probably earning approx 41500. When I was on year 3 I certainly wasnt earning 50,000. Are you sure you saw that right?For argument sake lets take your 50,000. Thats his gross so you can take away approx 7% pension levy. 46,500 then take into consideration the allowances for unsocial hours. ie. public holidays, weekend nights etc. Youll find its not too far off your brothers job. Thats not taking into account for either the rest of the taxes and levies.

IS he working to get the job done because of moral responsibility or because he'll be fired and they'll get someone else in. Fortunatly for the fireman his job is secure so he doesnt have to worry bout that but dont think that he doesnt have a moral responsibility to serve the community he protects.

Oh and one of the biggest civil engineering companies in the country. Surely during boom times their wages were far higher than this with generous bonuses. PS wages certainly wouldnt of been as much with no bonus.

Dont blame your friend for your own choice in career. The Fire Brigade is extremely difficult to get into. Out of thousands of applications your friend would of had to get in the top 160 candidates( I speak for Dublin alone) so congratulate him in succeeding and wish him well in his career.

baalthor

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Because we are fortunate in that some members of our community are motivated by things other than money -- most particularly by a wish to look after people in difficulty.

It looks as if they use up so much of their time in altruistic endeavour that they have none left for activities such as posting on boards.

Well there are plenty of arguments as to why people engage in altruistic behaviour...

One aspect might be that being a member of such organisations gets you a certain amount of respect or authority in the community.
I'm not saying that this is what motivates most of the people who volunteer but there is certainly a huge interest in organisations where you can wear a uniform and possibly issue orders or use weapons.
Indeed the police and army have to watch out for the walter mittys and wannabes who just want the status that goes with being a member.

On the other hand is there any such thing as volunteering to be a prison officer or a health inspector?

Of course some people (e.g. Randroids) claim that there is no such thing as altruism, that the volunteer gets some kind of reward be it in status or the feeling of well-being and accomplishment that comes from helping others.

So a true altruist would perform some task that they hate in order to help people that they despise and would do it in secret without ever telling anyone! But the question is then, why would any rational person do this?

But enough of my crappy attempt at philosophy, people who volunteer to help others generally do a wonderful job and so do most of the people who get paid to to these jobs!

MaceFace

starbelgrade wrote: »

I have to question - how dangerous is it actually to be a fireman in Ireland? I'd hazard a guess that on a year to year basis, there are more deaths in the fishing, construction & commercial driving industries.

Just a thought.

Actually a very good question.
Calling someone a firefighter these days is a little wrong as they actually deal with very few fires in comparison to the other tasks they have.
They typically deal with Road Traffic Accidents or Emergency Call outs where doors need to be broken down or large lifting equipment is needed.
But the vast majority of their jobs is false alarms - callouts to business premises for faulty alarms.

How dangerous is it? Physically, very little danger involved. You read the headlines of firefighters being attacked with bottles, but they are extremely rare in that every time they happen, they make national news.

My knowledge of the fire brigade is only of Dublin, and they don't work 24 hour days - its normally something like 6pm-8am or 8am-6pm. They could be sitting around for a lot of time doing nowt waiting on a call.
Now the hard part is the call out where a cyclist make have been severly injured by an artic and their legs may be like pancakes. This is obviously very tough on the mind.
So, it takes a special kind of person to be able to deal with that, and finding out if someone can do this is part of the training.

However, this does not mean they deserve big wages. Ask many firefighters if they would trade their job for a 9-5 office job and almost all would say no.
It is extrememly difficult to get into the fire brigade (at least in Dublin), so it is not like they should be paid to attract the people.

The person I know was getting more than 50k in his 3rd year due to the overtime. There is (or at least was) loads available and this is where most front line staff can boost their wages significantly.
The problem is that when you are used to a living, even if it is an allowance or overtime, you get used to it and you resist giving it back.

I am very annoyed that they will be striking as their pay and conditions are the ONLY thing that matters to them. They don't give a damn for the people they are dealing with.

Count Dooku

BrianD3 wrote: »

if that's the average industrial wage you're talking about then it is defined as follows
"Industrial workers were defined as operatives, maintenance workers, storekeepers, packers, cleaners, basic supervisory staff and apprentices. Managerial, professional, technical and clerical staff were not included in the calculation of the average industrial wage"

If the people in bold above were included, the average private sector wage would be much higher.

Total taxable income in 2008 was 81.517 Bn
Total number of taxpayers was 2,261,136
If we will remove 20 Bn of public services payroll bill and 350,000 PS workers, we will have about 61 Bn for 1,911,136. This figure includes part time workers, self-employed and billionaires. If you will divide 61 Bn by 1,911,136, you will get 31,918 per year.
It is average for whole private sector
If you will exclude people with income more then 275K, then you will get 28K as average private sector workers

If you will divide 20Bn by 350,000 – you will get 57K as absolute average for public sector.

32K vs 57K
Where is fairness?

Count Dooku

coach23 wrote: »

We do the worst jobs no one else wanted to do why shouldn't we be compensated for it

it was 80 applicants in average for each position, advertised in public sector in 2006
Doesn’t looks that nobody wanted it

parsi

So what exactly is the argument here:

Is it that firemen are thickos and shouldn't be paid more than somebody's brother who has a degree but a poorly paying job ?

Or is it that loads of people would like to do the job so the pay rate should be dropped - that I assume would also spread over to such high-paying jobs are senior bank officials, bank managers, bank execs, aldi area managers etc etc.

Or is it - I see someone earning more than me and by default that's wrong ?

MaceFace

parsi wrote: »

So what exactly is the argument here:

Is it that firemen are thickos and shouldn't be paid more than somebody's brother who has a degree but a poorly paying job ?

Or is it that loads of people would like to do the job so the pay rate should be dropped - that I assume would also spread over to such high-paying jobs are senior bank officials, bank managers, bank execs, aldi area managers etc etc.

Or is it - I see someone earning more than me and by default that's wrong ?

Personally, I think that salary is determined by supply and demand. If you are paying someone a certain wage and there are a load of people wishing to do that work and well capable, you should be looking at getting more bang for your buck.

Take your sample of private sector positions - they could be highly paid (Aldi?) but you don't have the supply of available people so you are competing for the smaller pool of talent.

Count Dooku

parsi wrote: »

So what exactly is the argument here:

Is it that firemen are thickos and shouldn't be paid more than somebody's brother who has a degree but a poorly paying job ?

Or is it that loads of people would like to do the job so the pay rate should be dropped - that I assume would also spread over to such high-paying jobs are senior bank officials, bank managers, bank execs, aldi area managers etc etc.

Or is it - I see someone earning more than me and by default that's wrong ?

Nothing
Problem is only that PS workers cannot demand private sector to keep their salaries on expense of PAYE workers
Public services holds monopoly for their services.
If I don’t like that BoI staff is overpaid, I can switch to Halifax. If I am not happy with O2 charges, I can go to Vodafone or 3G. If I am not happy with Tesco, I can shop in Lidl.

Because government doesn’t have any solution to keep salaries high in public services, except raising taxes, it means that public has a right to see how justified big salaries in public sector.

When taxes was not growing, nobody was opposing benchmarking.
When taxes started to grow, people started to look where their money are going
Current level of salaries have been introduced during property bubble, but party is over.
It is time for public services to learn how to live without property bubble

warrenaldo

coach23 wrote: »

what real world do you live in the one where you dont need firemen?
what job in this "real world" of yours compares to that of a fireman, garda, paramedic........there isnt one we are out there doing a job noone else would do dont punish us for it

I dont think you're out there doing a job that no-one else would do. Thousands of people applied for the Fireman posts when they became available over the last number of years.
Only a handfull become fireman.

A lot of people would do your job for a lot less money - I think that's the point.

S.L.F

starbelgrade wrote: »

I have to question - how dangerous is it actually to be a fireman in Ireland? I'd hazard a guess that on a year to year basis, there are more deaths in the fishing, construction & commercial driving industries.

True but how many firemen are there in comparison to the fishing, construction and commercial driving industries.

thebman wrote: »

Its just silly to reward someone for having skills completely irrelevant to the job they do.

What degrees do is prove a persons ability to learn something, which of course is a good thing.

MaceFace wrote: »

They could be sitting around for a lot of time doing nowt waiting on a call.

I would argue that this would be the worst part of the job

MaceFace wrote: »

However, this does not mean they deserve big wages. Ask many firefighters if they would trade their job for a 9-5 office job and almost all would say no.

I am very annoyed that they will be striking as their pay and conditions are the ONLY thing that matters to them. They don't give a damn for the people they are dealing with.

You have contradicted yourself there

Count Dooku wrote: »

If I don’t like that BoI staff is overpaid, I can switch to Halifax. If I am not happy with O2 charges, I can go to Vodafone or 3G. If I am not happy with Tesco, I can shop in Lidl.

So correct me if I'm wrong here you want to be able to call a specific fire station and have them deal with your fire?

warrenaldo wrote: »

A lot of people would do your job for a lot less money - I think that's the point.

But would they actually be able to do the job.