'Little corruption' in Ireland

dlofnep

Ireland came in 14th the world, alongside Germany in a recent survey, which analysed the levels of corruption across the globe. Ireland's score improved from 7.7 to 8.0 (1 being very corrupt, 10 being very little corruption).

New Zealand ranked 1st, with a score of 9.4, while Denmark was the highest in Europe with a 9.3 score. Somalia was the worst, with a 1.1 score, along with Afghanistan at 1.3, and Iraq & Burma coming in close after that.

Liam Byrne

Doesn't seem / feel like it's true. Guess it depends on your definition of "corruption"...

For example Ahern wasn't tackled on his self-confessed nepotism, and didn't even seem to view it for what it was.

Rantan

seems a bit off the wall to me. For a start how do you measure corruption? Surely the point of corruption is it is undetectable. Does this survey measure recorded/exposed incidents of corruption? Then
the countries that record the highlest levels are good at detecting and exposing corruption and are not the most corrupt?

I worked for a contractor once who was in trouble with in the HSA for highlest level of lost work days due to accidents. The truth was that at that time they were the only main contractor actually reporting them!

I think surveys and statistics are pure s***e most of teh time to be honest

rcecil

Corruption in Ireland can be measured in thousands of euros whereas the corruption in the US (Bush's direct conflict of interest in war and Madoff et al) is in the billions. Perhaps the Irish sell out too cheap.

Fratton Fred

rcecil wrote: »

Corruption in Ireland can be measured in thousands of euros whereas the corruption in the US (Bush's direct conflict of interest in war and Madoff et al) is in the billions. Perhaps the Irish sell out too cheap.

hhmmm, not so sure about that. What about the millions "borrowed" by the Directors of Anglo, unless that is classed as straight forward theft rather than corruption.

gurramok

Is that index based on convictions for corruption or perceived corruption?

And we all know the rate of conviction here. At least Madoff is in jail in the US.

dlofnep

Sorry, forgot the link: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1117/breaking50.htm

Overheal

i believe its perceived corruption according to some figures published via wikipedia.

Scofflaw

It's Transparency International's Perceived Corruption Index.

The main point is probably this:

The CPI measures perceptions of public sector corruption

Ireland's public sector really isn't very corrupt, at least to anyone who has experienced the casual corruption in, say, developing countries.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

good point. It's not like you have to hand over a tenner with your passport when you land at Dublin airport, or need to pay an "Introducers fee" to an agent before you can meet the president and then sell a fire engine to Dublin Fire Brigade.

meglome

Scofflaw wrote: »

Ireland's public sector really isn't very corrupt, at least to anyone who has experienced the casual corruption in, say, developing countries.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Agree. Spend some time in countries outside the EU, somewhere like India for example and you'll see real corruption.

Fratton Fred

When you read about the BAe corruption case, I doubt if there is anything on this scale that happens in Ireland http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6182137.stm

In fairness though, I have worked for several companies that do business in the middle East and this is the way business is done.

Seth Brundle

Ireland corrupt?
IIRC very few people have been convicted of it so it mustn't really happen!

fly_agaric

Ireland's public sector really isn't very corrupt, at least to anyone who has experienced the casual corruption in, say, developing countries.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes, what corruption we have occurs at a higher level (IMO, and I suppose as has been brought to light in tribunals etc). It is not something joe-citizen really experiences directly in their day to day dealings with the state.

Scofflaw

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes, what corruption we have occurs at a higher level (IMO, and I suppose as has been brought to light in tribunals etc). It is not something joe-citizen really experiences directly in their day to day dealings with the state.

If there was an area that I would point to and say it was corrupt, it would be planning. That's an area I do know (at second-hand) involves meetings in car parks with envelopes of cash even quite far down the chain - and quite possibly Ministerial meetings further up the chain.

Now, much of what happens is probably not 'corruption' according to our laws - but as far as I'm concerned a campaign contribution in response for favourable consideration of a developer's preferred zoning is corrupt.

Mind you, the whole business of planning in this country is corrupted by parish-pump politics and the relentless pursuit of votes - a decision to site something vote-getting in one's own constituency even if it would be better elsewhere is a corrupt decision, as is the decision not to site something in one's constituency even though it's the right place for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

starbelgrade

I heard a rumour, from an unconfirmed source, that Ireland gave the CPI a backhander to give them a better rating.

nesf

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes, what corruption we have occurs at a higher level (IMO, and I suppose as has been brought to light in tribunals etc). It is not something joe-citizen really experiences directly in their day to day dealings with the state.

Which, while deplorable is almost welcome compared to the kind of endemic low level corruption that goes on in India for example. Imagine needing to slip 50 quid over to the Garda in the station so he'd stamp your perfectly legitimate passport application after of course having to bribe someone to get your hands on the application form in the first place and you get an idea of what it's like over there.

I swear, people who go on about how we've terrible corruption compared to other nations have a very naive view of the rest of the world. We should root it out yes, but we should be very very thankful that we live in a relatively uncorrupt society compared to the majority of the world's population.

Scofflaw

nesf wrote: »

Which, while deplorable is almost welcome compared to the kind of endemic low level corruption that goes on in India for example. Imagine needing to slip 50 quid over to the Garda in the station so he'd stamp your perfectly legitimate passport application after of course having to bribe someone to get your hands on the application form in the first place and you get an idea of what it's like over there.

I swear, people who go on about how we've terrible corruption compared to other nations have a very naive view of the rest of the world. We should root it out yes, but we should be very very thankful that we live in a relatively uncorrupt society compared to the majority of the world's population.

Travel broadens the mind! Who knew?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Rantan

Scofflaw wrote: »

If there was an area that I would point to and say it was corrupt, it would be planning. That's an area I do know (at second-hand) involves meetings in car parks with envelopes of cash even quite far down the chain - and quite possibly Ministerial meetings further up the chain.

Now, much of what happens is probably not 'corruption' according to our laws - but as far as I'm concerned a campaign contribution in response for favourable consideration of a developer's preferred zoning is corrupt.

Mind you, the whole business of planning in this country is corrupted by parish-pump politics and the relentless pursuit of votes - a decision to site something vote-getting in one's own constituency even if it would be better elsewhere is a corrupt decision, as is the decision not to site something in one's constituency even though it's the right place for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bang on - hopefully its starting to change, I know most people hate the greens(I'm not one by the way) but this is an area that Gormley does appear to be taking seriously.
I have an interest in heritage, archaeology etc and some of the things that have been allowed to happen due to "re-zoning" are disgraceful. Can only be explained by the car park syndrome.

Shea O'Meara

Was there a survey on gross incompetence? Our crowd would be up there;)

nesf

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Was there a survey on gross incompetence? Our crowd would be up there;)

We've got nothing compared to some of the stunts pulled by certain leaders in other EU countries: http://www.economist.com/daily/news/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14885947&fsrc=nwl

The man makes Haughey look like an innocent.

diverdriver

There is very little official corruption in Ireland, that's true. But if the survey only looked at political corruption. That would be a different story. On the other hand Bertie Ahern never thought he was corrupt. He just thought he had good friends who liked him enough to give him loads of money without strings attached and of course he was a dab hand at betting on the horses. Haughey thought he was entitled to the money he acquired so had no guilt either. The same goes for most of them.

CokaColumbo

I personally think claims of corruption have been completely exaggerated by Fianna Fail opponents. I also think the definition of corruption has been twisted by people.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

We've got nothing compared to some of the stunts pulled by certain leaders in other EU countries: http://www.economist.com/daily/news/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14885947&fsrc=nwl

The man makes Haughey look like an innocent.

Not a criticism of your point, but I find it funny that we take the most corrupt as the benchmark, rather than the least corrupt.:)

Almost says we subconsciously expect corruption in Ireland, and we are pleased to find out we are less corrupt than Berlusconi's Italy, which, when you think about it, is not unlike being pleased that our dictator only killed 1 million compared to Hitler's 6.


A lot done, more to do..............

asdasd

Even the top level political corruption is not all that. The tribunal found that Ahern got a bung for a house ( when he had none) from a guy who was a friend. The corruption there is not paying tax, there is little indication that Ahern was influenced to do anything. In fact the tribunal should have been investigating corruption at local level - Dublin CC - so I am not sure how it got to that. Feature creep.

Not a defence of FF by the way, they were worse than corrupt , incompetent.

That said Mendelshohn was removed from Office for getting a "loan" for a house from a guy his office were investigating, and the prince of darkness is still with us. Well still with the English.

Shea O'Meara

asdasd wrote: »

Even the top level political corruption is not all that.

A little corruption done, more to do?

CokaColumbo wrote: »

I personally think claims of corruption have been completely exaggerated by Fianna Fail opponents. I also think the definition of corruption has been twisted by people.

I certainly believe the definition gets distorted, but usually by those involved in the wrong doing. There should be no levels, you are corrupt or you are not.
Personally, I think Fianna Fail have a long history of corruption, from Dev to present day, although we won't hear about current activities for a number of years. Why would I expect them not to have a minister or two currently up to something? There was never a period in their history were they can say they'd a clean house.

asdasd

There was never a period in their history were they can say they'd a clean house.

What was Dev's corruption?

EDIT: I think the rot started with FF with Haughey, and until then it was clean.

Shea O'Meara

asdasd wrote: »

What was Dev's corruption?

EDIT: I think the rot started with FF with Haughey, and until then it was clean.

Dev and to this day as I understand, the rest of his tree, still get monies from the Irish Press and associated funds. Which Dev requested all Irish all over the world buy shares in as the Irish should have their own publication and so on.
Of course there were two kinds of shares, 'B' shares which went to DeValera and Co. and 'A' shares which the public were allowed purchase. These 'A' shares were no more than pieces of paper and worthless. Dev and Co. made a fortune on the patriotism of others using Ireland as the basis for a swindle.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dev-tricked-public-into-investing-in-irish-press-file-reveals-485691.html

nesf

asdasd wrote: »

What was Dev's corruption?

EDIT: I think the rot started with FF with Haughey, and until then it was clean.

Neutering the upper house to give himself almost unhindered control over the State was a major negative point. Not corrupt but by doing so he made corruption at high levels in the future far easier since there would be little to counter the wishes of a sitting Taoiseach.

jimmmy

CokaColumbo wrote: »

I personally think claims of corruption have been completely exaggerated by Fianna Fail opponents.

Do not think it has always anything to do with Fianna Fail. For example, ask those suppliers of services and goods to the govt...kickbacks are sometimes literally asked for , never mind just expected....one purchasing manager in a govt dept asked for 150 worth of goods a week for his family if he was to give the contract etc.

marco_polo

In fairness those figures sound about right to me. There is a big difference between genuine corruption and gross political incompetance.

If such a ranking existed for the latter, I'd wager our position would be down alot further.