The Reality in the Private Sector

whatnext

Over the past number of weeks my blood has been to boiling point on a number of occasions reading some in the rhetoric posted here.

I would like to invite other private sector workers to post how their circumstances have changed over the past 2 to 3 years, given that unions and Public Sector workers to a large extent dont seem the think there have been pay cuts in the Private Sector, and thats before we go on to discuss fringe benefits.

My salary: In 2008 I took a 23% pay cut
In 2009 I took a further 15% pay cut

Staff Numbers, 2007 36 staff
2008 25 staff
2009 there are now 15 of us

Pension Contribution, 9.2% of my salary (tax deductible the same as the pension levy is)
Holiday entitlements 21 days (I got an extra day after 5 years service)
Sick Pay - Not entitled to it. there is no entitlement to sick pay in Irish Law - (but you can make a social welfare claim)
Overtime - Not Paid for
Contracted hours - 39.5 (I think, not 100% sure on this)
Hours worked - Min 45, but usually closer to 50
Flexi-time - whats that?
I did an MBA over the past 2 years, which I paid for myself and had to take unpaid study leave for.
Paternity Leave - 3 days unpaid
No subsidised canteen
And I dont get €13.70 subsistence if I am away from the office for 5 hours.

And finally, I still have a job, which I am very greatful for, times are tougher but I and all my colleagues realise if we don't all pull together our company will fold. I'm not looking for sympathy but this is life in the real world. And I honestly belive there are people on these boards that dont realise what is going on.

Gurgle

whatnext wrote: »

I would like to invite other private sector workers to post how their circumstances have changed over the past 2 to 3 years

OK then, since you ask:
Got made redundant in '06, spent a year trying to start a business. Failed miserably and got a new job in '07 at ~5% above my final salary in the old place. Pay rise of 5% in '08, we're on a pay freeze for the duration of '09 in the interests of our parent corporation's 'profit protection'.

whatnext wrote: »

given that unions and Public Sector workers to a large extent dont seem the think there have been pay cuts in the Private Sector

Yes, it would be interesting to see a full and true picture, but generally the (relatively few) people who did take a cut are the noisiest.

ParkRunner

Downward pressure on wage costs…
The introduction of the public service pension levy last February reduced public service salaries by around 7 per cent. The evolution of private sector per capita wages is a source of some uncertainty. A number of surveys undertaken by various institutions have indicated that private-sector wages were adjusting downwards in response to the changed economic environment. This is expected to be confirmed when more up-to-date official CSO data become available.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6081

From the pre-budget outlook November 2009. Hopefully we got some hard statistics from the CSO to show what the truth is.

Gumbo

i took a 15% pay cut in early 2007 in the private sector. (engineering consultancy)
start of 2008 took a further 10% paycut to take up a job in the public service. (took a risk as i may not be kept on after this January.)

over all im down 25% to what i was earning 2 years ago but still delighted to be working when alot around me have lost their jobs including my partner with whom i have a mortgage with and we get no state help with that.

dresden8

kceire wrote: »

i took a 15% pay cut in early 2007 in the private sector. (engineering consultancy)
start of 2008 took a further 10% paycut to take up a job in the public service. (took a risk as i may not be kept on after this January.)

over all im down 25% to what i was earning 2 years ago but still delighted to be working when alot around me have lost their jobs including my partner with whom i have a mortgage with and we get no state help with that.

That won't go down to well around here.

ParkRunner

dresden8 wrote: »

That won't go down to well around here.

Not at all

Notes the meaningless percentage drops in income without disclosing the actual salary

fifth

80 redundancies in the last 12 months in work, 15% pay cut, mandatory unpaid leave imposed on me now and all pay rises due to me were frozen.

I really feel like I could be nearly as well off on the dole now.

thebman

Made redundant in Feb, got a job last month. Entire department was let go in last place (IT) and outsourced with only one system admin still in Dublin to look after 3 companies in 3 buildings infrastructure.

Massive cuts in other departments, sales staff going from 70,000 (around 35,000 plus commission they were earning) going into commission only roles and anyone refusing being let go and few sales to be had.

Just got a job in a company as a contractor. Could go at anytime but hopefully won't as it seems pretty busy in the place and they seem keen to take me on full time later on. I'm on the lowest salary you'd expect a contractor to be by looking at salary surveys. Its still a pay increase over my last job but I have 2 years experience now and there is absolutely no security and most of my savings were eroded by my 8 months unemployed which almost drove me mental (thank christ for TF2 and my collection of games I never had the time to play when I was working :P)

spaceballs

20% paycut so far, fall under the senior management title in work though so the 5 of us in that bracket took the 20%, and all other staff (approx 240) were asked to take between 5 and 10% depending on their level of pay to start with, generally lower paid were asked to take small cuts. Should also point out that most staff have seen a significant reduction in their hours also, so between that and pay-cuts I would guess most are down 15 to 20%.

Should point out that it was our decision to take the 20% and we have no problem taking it as we know the full effect of the recession on our business. Should also point out that we are simply employees of the company, there are separate owners, who have not taken a penny out of the company in nearly 2 years now.

The staff numbers in my department have dropped from 7 full time to 3 full time and one person working 3 days a week, needless to say our workload has pretty much doubled, mainly mine though, with the other staff still working within their contracted hours.

So far this year I have had to personally make 6 people redundant, as well as putting a large number of staff members on 3 or 4 day weeks.

For other things asked for by the OP:
Holiday entitlements 20 days, however to date due to workload I've only taken 4 since last Christmas.
Sick Pay - Entitled to full pay, I'm the only one in the company entitled however as I insisted on it when taking the job
Overtime - Not Paid for
Contracted hours - 39
Hours worked - Min 45, but would probably average at 55 to 60, today for example was a 13 hour day
Flexi-time - No

No subsistence and mileage rate of 60c a mile compared to civil service rates of 95c

As for what I know of cuts friends have taken, these range from 10% to 30% in paycuts, to redundancies, I would say the majority are around the 10% though. The only friends that I can think of that haven't taken cuts are all in the civil service. I don't consider the pension levy as a cut as I see it as righting a wrong and should have been done from day one when the public service pension was set up, although I do believe entry into the pension should be optional and they should make it a defined contribution scheme rather than defined benefit scheme for anyone joining the civil service going forward to match it to the majority of private sector pensions. That would never get past the unions though.

KindOfIrish

whatnext wrote: »

I would like to invite other private sector workers to post how their circumstances have changed over the past 2 to 3 years

No change. The min. wage as usual. No bonuses, overtime payments etc. Hope it won't be taxed in the upcoming budget.

Scofflaw

Stick to the topic, please. There are approximately a billion other threads discussing public sector pensions.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Wishbone Ash

ardmacha wrote: »

As for the thread in general, many sectors vary more in a boom and bust than typical PS sectors like health and education. Tell us something new.

+1.

themadchef

I'm on the same salary (as in no increase or decrease) for the last 2 years.

Was never paid overtime.
Have never taken sick leave (though it would be paid)
Stopped paying into my pension, decided i'd prefer to feed my kids instead.
Hours worked? As many as it takes to get the job done, same as ever since 1999 when i started in my job.

Holidays...off season i work a little, high season i work 14 hr shifts so i holiday in off season. I work every BH, all Christmas and New year (apart from Christmas day)

My job has not changed nor has my working mentality. I never got friendly with the celtic tiger, but i get the feeling he's going to bite me in the ass none the less. How long am i going to stay "lucky" in my job? Because that's how i feel these days, lucky. I work like a trojan for the priviledge.

So my circumstances with regard to my job have not changed financially, but my my psyche is quite different. I'm worrying, almost daily as to wether or not my job is safe, even though my rational mind tells me business, while quieter is still good.

AlekSmart

Whatnext:

Hours worked - Min 45, but usually closer to 50

Spaceballs:

Hours worked - Min 45, but would probably average at 55 to 60, today for example was a 13 hour day

The two examples posted here are an indication of what appears to be the reality of Ireland 2009.

Its at varience with Ireland 2008 that`s for sure.

If these folks are averaging 50+hours a week then they and their employer are in breach of the Working Time Act 2008.

Maximum 48Hours per week averaged over 17 weeks thank you very much,and it does not concern the Dept of Enterprise,Trade and Employment whether you are doing it for the good of your company,cos you`ll BOTH be charged and fined.

Taking on board all the EU soft-focus worker protection stuff during the good-times is now leaving us uniquely neutered when it comes to working our way out of depression.

It appears that the Irish Government would prefer it`s citizens to sit on the pavement with a styrofoam cup instead of working longer hours legitimately.

Scofflaw

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whatnext:

Spaceballs:

The two examples posted here are an indication of what appears to be the reality of Ireland 2009.

Its at varience with Ireland 2008 that`s for sure.

If these folks are averaging 50+hours a week then they and their employer are in breach of the Working Time Act 2008.

Maximum 48Hours per week averaged over 17 weeks thank you very much,and it does not concern the Dept of Enterprise,Trade and Employment whether you are doing it for the good of your company,cos you`ll BOTH be charged and fined.

Taking on board all the EU soft-focus worker protection stuff during the good-times is now leaving us uniquely neutered when it comes to working our way out of depression.

It appears that the Irish Government would prefer it`s citizens to sit on the pavement with a styrofoam cup instead of working longer hours legitimately.

Are you referring to the 1993 Directive there - implemented in Ireland, I think, by the "Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997"? There's certainly no 2008 Act by the name you've given, and 48 hours has been the statutory limit since before the Celtic Tiger - which rather suggests it's irrelevant.

As to its application in the majority of the private sector - allow me a brief hollow laugh. Sure, you can't have a contract that obliges you to work more than 48 hours, and if you're on a clock-punching timesheet job the same, but for most people the concept of legally limited hours - and overtime - is purely theoretical.

cordially,
Scofflaw

lmimmfn

Scofflaw wrote: »

As to its application in the majority of the private sector - allow me a brief hollow laugh. Sure, you can't have a contract that obliges you to work more than 48 hours, and if you're on a clock-punching timesheet job the same, but for most people the concept of legally limited hours - and overtime - is purely theoretical.

cordially,
Scofflaw

yep, pretty much, besides i dont agree with fixed maximum hours. If youre some form of genius that can sort out complex problems in no time at all then grand, if you have to research and investigate then capped hours mean nothing.

Gurgle

Scofflaw wrote: »

As to its application in the majority of the private sector - allow me a brief hollow laugh. Sure, you can't have a contract that obliges you to work more than 48 hours, and if you're on a clock-punching timesheet job the same, but for most people the concept of legally limited hours - and overtime - is purely theoretical.

My previous job had a great take on this.
Salaried staff (on flexitime) were essentially hourly paid up to a cap - the cap being our 'salary'.

If you were short 15 minutes for the month, you were docked pay. If (more often) you were up 40 hours for the month - nada.

dny123456

20% drop between 2001 and 2010 for me

westtip

EF wrote: »

Not at all

Notes the meaningless percentage drops in income without disclosing the actual salary

Ok I suggest that salaries are shown in brackets:

< 15000
15k - 25k
25k - 35k
35 -60k
60k (avg teacher) - 90k
90+

self employed, been hit by lost revenue from companies who can't afford to pay me. Doing a lot of work on good will basis in hope things will improve, pay cut of about 50% in past two years due to company I used to do contract work for a company now closing down. Its very tough out there to get new contracts companies just not spending money on any changes in IT in particular. This year I reckon sector one above possibly sector two. Self employed people don't get paid holidays, pension contributions, nor can they claim unemployment benefit, they pay their own PSRI and are in essence the unrecognised poor in Ireland.

Gurgle

westtip wrote: »

60k (avg teacher) - 90k

Planning to back this up or remove your post?

thebman

EF wrote: »

Not at all

Notes the meaningless percentage drops in income without disclosing the actual salary

Why would anyone tell you what they earn?

I don't tell people what I earn on here or in real life. Its my pay, its none of your business.

danman

I lost my job at the end of July. I managed to get another job, 215 miles from home and my family.

I leave home at 4am on a monday, work untill 7pm, 12 hour shifts until friday then I get home at 11pm on friday night.

I've taken a 25% cut in my weekly salary.
I now work 20 extra hours per week. (not including 4.5 hours travelling each way on a monday and friday.)
Effectivly, I've taken a 47% cut in my hourly rate.

Diarmuid

Gurgle wrote: »

Planning to back this up or remove your post?

probably talking about this. Although taking into account the ratio of men to women, the average should be €57200

Tipp Man

westtip wrote: »

60k (avg teacher)

Gurgle wrote: »

Planning to back this up or remove your post?

If you don't mind i'll help Westtip out here as i personally feel that teachers are robbing this country blind. According to TUI website there are 25 levels on a secondary teachers salary scale, so i think its a good assumption to say that levels 12-13 would be the average teacher especially as there are a lot of teachers countrywide. So the basic salary of a level 13 teacher is €51,297. On top of this they get €1,299 for having the Hdip (which you must have) and an extra €5,177 for their primary degrees. This give a total of €57,773 to your average bog standard teacher.

But wait I am not including, exam supervision, exam correction, masters degrees, year heads, department heads, study supervision (teachers i know are paid CASH for this) as these are very hard to quatify and apply more on an individual teachers preferences

So to be fair I think that westtip is actually a little conservative when he says 60k, and thats without including principals and vice principals

Tipp Man

And i completly forgot that they only work 7 months of the year for this outrageous salary, and they have the cheek to strike next month

they are living on a different planet

Scofflaw

Stay on topic, please - there's a nice long thread to discuss teachers and teacher's pay already.

moderately,
Scofflaw

hobochris

My salary: Started on 25k
took a 10% cut now on 23k

Staff Numbers, 2007 5 staff
2008 4 staff
2009 there are now 3 of us

Pension: nope.
Holiday entitlements: 21 day standard(as per employment law).
Sick Pay: Whats that? you miss work you don't get paid.
Overtime: plenty, not paid for though
Contracted hours - 42 per week
Hours worked - 45
Flexi-time : whats that?

Area: Software Development.
Qualifications: B.Sc(Hon),Ccna
Experience: 2 years
Paternity Leave :?
No Subsidized canteen or any other fancy Benefits.

Tipp Man

Scofflaw wrote: »

Stay on topic, please - there's a nice long thread to discuss teachers and teacher's pay already.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Apologies, Gurgle had asked him to back it up

meditraitor

2007 - 30k -35k
25 days holidays
5 Sick days paid (took 1)
Work week average 39 hours

2008 - 35k -40k
25 days holidays
5 Sick days ( took 1)
Work week average 39 hours


2009- 30k - 35k (drop of 4k)
23 days holidays
Sick days not paid
Work week average 50-55 hours

Less holidays, less pay, more hours and Im fucking delighted (serious)

Lots of people I know in real trouble,

AlekSmart

Are you referring to the 1993 Directive there - implemented in Ireland, I think, by the "Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997"? There's certainly no 2008 Act by the name you've given, and 48 hours has been the statutory limit since before the Celtic Tiger - which rather suggests it's irrelevant.

My apologies Scofflaw,I neglected to point out that my present employment (Mobile Worker) was operating under an exemption since 1997.

However,that (EU wide) exemption ended last year and the Department has been very forthright in it`s stance concerning my category....the relevant quote is "Prosecutions of both employers AND employees WILL follow immediately upon discovery of breaches of regulations"

That`s told us then......

However what many fail to realize is that the 48Hr average is applicable to the Individual and not the job.
Therefore taking on legitimate part-time work to supplement ones earnings is illegal IF that work amounts to more than 8hrs perweek.

If as you state,all of this regulatory stuff is irrelevant (which I believe it to be) then the leglislation should be officially binned and the Public advised as such.

Although....reading some of the posts here does make me wonder if some employers are playing fast&loose with their employees desire to remain in gainful employment.

It is one thing to acknowledge a need for restraint and downward adjustment,but it`s nowhere near acceptable to read of some of the practices described here.....:cool:

ParkRunner

thebman wrote: »

Why would anyone tell you what they earn?

I don't tell people what I earn on here or in real life. Its my pay, its none of your business.

I agree its none of my business but a % drop means very little if we dont know that it is a % of. A millionaire could say they took a 70% hit yet still be earning 10 times someone on the average wage who only took a 2% drop.