The Reality in the Private Sector

Amhran Nua

_Kooli_ wrote: »

The reason i say to go to MABS or citizens advice is that welfare are known to make mistakes, like the post above.

There are some fairly serious mistakes there, as its threatening to put them out on the street, literally.

Tipp Man

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Yes, you are lying.
Easiest way is for the guy to go and ask what he is entitled to.

Your examples are just BS. Shopkeepers (i presume you mean those who own the shops) an wind up the business. If they have nothing left after that, dole. If they do have money left after selling up, pay themselves with it. These BS stories are handed down by self-employed, especially taxi drivers for the sympathy vote. NOBODY is denied social assistance.

Its a fairly big call to make by calling somebody a liar without providing any back up to that assertion

Do you have back up that this is lies??

Rantan

Deep breath everyone! Jesus I go out for half an hour and come back to this!! I think I owe a clarification of the facts to our case, I will try and be brief. Wife went on contract bout 2 years ago but worked for the one company, no benefit to be had by being on contract so went back to PAYE after 1 year but still worked for same employer, basically accountant made a mistake(we should have copped it but however) Social welfare have clearly stated she will not get jobseekers until 2011(not enough stamps) , however and this is the point I never mentioned I will be able to claim a portion of her job seekers on mine should she loose her job. This is the best we can hope for. Basically, it was a mistake by the missus to go on contract at the time but anyway, lesson learned. Would be a differrent story if she had been well paid for it but still ended up with less thatn 30K for that year. I have an appointment with MABS about this and a few other things anyway next week. I just think the claim that someone on 38K is better off on the dole is a bit of a stretch and the original Eddie Hobbs show shows the guy in question earned €32k not €38k so we cannot just write that differnce off.
Appologies for the diatribe......

nesf

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There are some fairly serious mistakes there, as its threatening to put them out on the street, literally.

People **** up, welcome to the real world you'll hear it a lot on the doorstep (both real and imagined **** ups that is).

The_Honeybadger

This thread seems to have gone completely off the original point but here is my situation. Was working up until xmas 08 as an account manager earning 45k + modest bonus,company car VHI etc. Got laid off with only very small redundancy as I was only in the job a couple of years. Looked around until April with very little opportunities arising until I was offered a job at 32k, no perks or bonuses. In case anybody is interested I have a business degree and masters. I've had to adjust my lifestyle accordingly with this new salary, I was never a crazy spender anyway as I didn't need a car loan and I'm not overly materialistic. Luckily I never bought a house as I was discouraged from doing so by my father in particular as he felt the crash was only a matter of time. Since I got the new job I bought a second hand car out of my savings, I bring a packed lunch to work, one reasonable holiday this year, shop around for groceries and other items and am currently renting and waiting to see what happens with property prices. it really amazes me to see the debt people got themselves into, massive mortgages and car loans etc, keeping up with the Jones is a recipe for disaster. I have a partner (now on a 3 day week) and two young kids and we get by ok but I do feel a little angry when I hear teachers and other well paid members of the PS moan about proposed small cuts to their wages, nobody forced anybody to buy houses and new cars they chose to. Some peoples attitide stinks and it's clear there is no will to help the country back on its feet. We were all paid too much and need to come back in line with our trading partners.

Rantan

mickeyk wrote: »

This thread seems to have gone completely off the original point but here is my situation. Was working up until xmas 08 as an account manager earning 45k + modest bonus,company car VHI etc. Got laid off with only very small redundancy as I was only in the job a couple of years. Looked around until April with very little opportunities arising until I was offered a job at 32k, no perks or bonuses. In case anybody is interested I have a business degree and masters. I've had to adjust my lifestyle accordingly with this new salary, I was never a crazy spender anyway as I didn't need a car loan and I'm not overly materialistic. Luckily I never bought a house as I was discouraged from doing so by my father in particular as he felt the crash was only a matter of time. Since I got the new job I bought a second hand car out of my savings, I bring a packed lunch to work, one reasonable holiday this year, shop around for groceries and other items and am currently renting and waiting to see what happens with property prices. it really amazes me to see the debt people got themselves into, massive mortgages and car loans etc, keeping up with the Jones is a recipe for disaster. I have a partner (now on a 3 day week) and two young kids and we get by ok but I do feel a little angry when I hear teachers and other well paid members of the PS moan about proposed small cuts to their wages, nobody forced anybody to buy houses and new cars they chose to. Some peoples attitide stinks and it's clear there is no will to help the country back on its feet. We were all paid too much and need to come back in line with our trading partners.

Why are you not on the dole? Apparently you could have a roaring time of it!!
Similar job history/salary scale to myself at the moment - except I dont have the 32K job yet, but would be glad to get one right now. Its good to hear you can survive(modestly, if you are smart) on it, thats the point I was trying to make earlier.

old boy

a little of J.F.Ks. famous line is needed urgently,
ask not what your country can do for you, BUT what you can do for your country.
WAKE UP and smell the schit people, this little country is going down the pipes very fast, unless we help ourselves we are in it deep, it is time to forget the i,m all right jack attitude, the greed that has manifistated is unbelieveable.

Amhran Nua

nesf wrote: »

People **** up, welcome to the real world you'll hear it a lot on the doorstep (both real and imagined **** ups that is).

Eh don't take my word for it, try ringing the Galway social welfare office, they aren't answering. Theres a pattern of foot dragging emerging which ain't funny when it comes to people's lives.

The_Honeybadger

Rantan wrote: »

Why are you not on the dole? Apparently you could have a roaring time of it!!
Similar job history/salary scale to myself at the moment - except I dont have the 32K job yet, but would be glad to get one right now. Its good to hear you can survive(modestly, if you are smart) on it, thats the point I was trying to make earlier.

@Rantan Obviously I was on jobseekers up until I got the new job and it sure ain't any fun. Aside from the financial implications what I found most difficult was queuing at the Post office to collect it as i have always been financially independent, and in social situations the dreaded "What do you do?" question. It was a very dark place for me as a person who was always used to being in good employment. It's very difficult both mentally as well as financially and i hope I'm never back there. Best of luck if you are jobhunting.

Rantan

mickeyk wrote: »

@Rantan Obviously I was on jobseekers up until I got the new job and it sure ain't any fun. Aside from the financial implications what I found most difficult was queuing at the Post office to collect it as i have always been financially independent, and in social situations the dreaded "What do you do?" question. It was a very dark place for me as a person who was always used to being in good employment. It's very difficult both mentally as well as financially and i hope I'm never back there. Best of luck if you are jobhunting.

sorry I was just having a sarcastic dig at those out there who think the dole is great fun. Job hunting at the moment, there appears to be more jobs out there than I expected, but with huge drop in salary, but it seems to be the only way at present - bit like yourself, I have been in construction for 12 years and am kind of sick of it any way, so am trying to be positive by using this opportunity to maybe start in a new industry and get a bit of new experience, good time at present to live cheaply, low interest etc

nesf

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Eh don't take my word for it, try ringing the Galway social welfare office, they aren't answering. Theres a pattern of foot dragging emerging which ain't funny when it comes to people's lives.

Well in fairness, they're probably rushed off their feet from open to close there, they can't be staffed fully for the numbers they're now dealing with.

_Kooli_

Tipp Man wrote: »

Its a fairly big call to make by calling somebody a liar without providing any back up to that assertion

Do you have back up that this is lies??

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/self-employed-and-unemployment/

call one of these numbers to explain your own individual situation to you.
1890 283 438
1890 777 121

Knock yourself out.

_Kooli_

Rantan wrote: »

Deep breath everyone! Jesus I go out for half an hour and come back to this!! I think I owe a clarification of the facts to our case, I will try and be brief. Wife went on contract bout 2 years ago but worked for the one company, no benefit to be had by being on contract so went back to PAYE after 1 year but still worked for same employer, basically accountant made a mistake(we should have copped it but however) Social welfare have clearly stated she will not get jobseekers until 2011(not enough stamps) , however and this is the point I never mentioned I will be able to claim a portion of her job seekers on mine should she loose her job. This is the best we can hope for. Basically, it was a mistake by the missus to go on contract at the time but anyway, lesson learned. Would be a differrent story if she had been well paid for it but still ended up with less thatn 30K for that year. I have an appointment with MABS about this and a few other things anyway next week. I just think the claim that someone on 38K is better off on the dole is a bit of a stretch and the original Eddie Hobbs show shows the guy in question earned €32k not €38k so we cannot just write that differnce off.
Appologies for the diatribe......

Remember the dole is tax free too. And you wont have commuting expenses or any of the work related expenses. Dont write that off either.

bridgitt

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Shopkeepers (i presume you mean those who own the shops) an wind up the business. If they have nothing left after that, dole. If they do have money left after selling up, pay themselves with it.

Most self employed people ( whose business has dried up ) have no option but to pay themselves with it ( selling off assets, eating in to savings ) as they are generally not entitled to the dole.
Quote "Self-employed people pay Class S PRSI. Class S PRSI only covers you for certain social welfare payments. It does not cover you for Jobseeker’s Benefit." " To qualify Jobseeker’s Allowance (JA) you must satisfy a mean test." " If you are married or living with another person as husband and wife, the means of your spouse or partner are also taken into account." "The means test examines the following types of income:
Cash income (including income from work)
Property personally used
Capital (savings and investments) and property not personally used
Benefit and privilege from living with your parents. " unquote

This website ( kindly provided but I was aware of it, thank you ) is a good website for explaining a complicated subject :http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/self-employed-and-unemployment/

As said before, if they are on the breadline and have no assets,( unlikely for those who have worked hard for say 10 or 25 years and been careful with their money ) then and only then they will get the dole. There are tens of thousands of auctioneers, tradespeople , shopkeepers, architects, salespeople etc not even making half the minimum wage per week. I wonder what will happen during the next year when a lot of savings run out ? The collapse in the price of lot of assets is partly due to people selling off practically the family silver to survive.

_Kooli_

bridgitt wrote: »

Most self employed people ( whose business has dried up ) have no option but to pay themselves with it ( selling off assets, eating in to savings ) as they are generally not entitled to the dole.
Quote "Self-employed people pay Class S PRSI. Class S PRSI only covers you for certain social welfare payments. It does not cover you for Jobseeker’s Benefit." " To qualify Jobseeker’s Allowance (JA) you must satisfy a mean test." " If you are married or living with another person as husband and wife, the means of your spouse or partner are also taken into account." "The means test examines the following types of income:
Cash income (including income from work)
Property personally used
Capital (savings and investments) and property not personally used
Benefit and privilege from living with your parents. " unquote

This website ( kindly provided but I was aware of it, thank you ) is a good website for explaining a complicated subject :http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/self-employed-and-unemployment/

As said before, if they are on the breadline and have no assets,( unlikely for those who have worked hard for say 10 or 25 years and been careful with their money ) then and only then they will get the dole. There are tens of thousands of auctioneers, tradespeople , shopkeepers, architects, salespeople etc not even making half the minimum wage per week. I wonder what will happen during the next year when a lot of savings run out ? The collapse in the price of lot of assets is partly due to people selling off practically the family silver to survive.

Please lift the phone, ring and ask so you an settle your own argument. You are obviously arguing now for the sake of argument. The link i have you specifically says tha they will at least be entitled to jobseekers allowance.

They are entitled to jobseekers allowance. Yes, its means tested, but they will come out with close to the dole and benefits.
Same for savings. They dont knock that much off for savings. People are entitled to have savings.

If they have liquid assets or €100k in savings of course they wont get the dole. Are you saying someone with liquid assets and hundreds of thousands in the bank deserves dole?

Please point me to these shopkeepers, tradesmen, architects, salespeople who are on below minimum wage. I know several of each and not one of them is on below minimum wage.

bridgitt

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Please lift the phone, ring and ask so you an settle your own argument. .

The phone was lifted to and the website is correct, its means tested. If young and living at home, the "Benefit and privilege from living with your parents" are taken in to account. Those who are " married or living with another person as husband and wife, the means of your spouse or partner are also taken into account". If not disqualified for that, then " Property personally used Capital (savings and investments) and property not personally used " are taken in to account. Someone I know worked for a few decades through thick and thin and saved an average of 5 grand a year for his pension, which he invested in an apartment, which is still mortgaged and has fallen in value - because he has this he cannot get the dole, even though his business has dried up and he cannot get another job.

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Please point me to these shopkeepers, tradesmen, architects, salespeople who are on below minimum wage. I know several of each and not one of them is on below minimum wage.

Some are not on any wage. I know one shopkeeper who invested his SSIA trying to keep his business going, but he lost it paying staff and overheads ( and nothing left for himself ) , and now has no income at all. Many architects for example too have no work - who is planning on building ? Same with someone I know who made luxury products - nobody is buying. Luckily some people still have partners in employment or savings ( which they had hoped to keep as their pension or for a rainy day ) to fall back on. The rainy day came. Expect unemployment figures to rise bigtime once the savings run out.

gurramok

_Kooli_ wrote: »

If they have liquid assets or €100k in savings of course they wont get the dole. Are you saying someone with liquid assets and hundreds of thousands in the bank deserves dole?.

If they dump the money towards the purchase of an asset(house), they will get the dole.
If they also got a mortgage, they will get the dole and mortgage interest relief. Basically, its all property incentivised in this country to get the welfare benefits for when you lose your job.

And all the while the non-asset owning hard saver who has been prudent is means tested and screwed over when his job goes.

Gurgle

gurramok wrote: »

If they dump the money towards the purchase of an asset(house), they will get the dole.
If they also got a mortgage, they will get the dole and mortgage interest relief.

How do you get mortgage interest relief if you're unemployed?

gurramok wrote: »

Basically, its all property incentivised in this country to get the welfare benefits for when you lose your job.

Provision of housing to welfare surfers is a major cost to the state.

gurramok wrote: »

And all the while the non-asset owning hard saver who has been prudent is means tested and screwed over when his job goes.

You get jobseekers benefit for up to a year after you lose your job, and its not means tested (depends on your PRSI contributions).

If you haven't worked in over a year, and you have tens of thousands in the bank - why do you think you should be entitled to social welfare?

gurramok

Gurgle wrote: »

How do you get mortgage interest relief if you're unemployed?

You do as in the scenario of having a mortgage.

Gurgle wrote:

You get jobseekers benefit for up to a year after you lose your job, and its not means tested (depends on your PRSI contributions).

Yes, but will there be jobs in 12 months time? Its a big risk.

Gurgle wrote:

If you haven't worked in over a year, and you have tens of thousands in the bank - why do you think you should be entitled to social welfare?

Then why is the first 20k disregarded in the means test? 20k is a fine amount to live on and yet not penalised. Over that amount, its tested dramatically. Savings were never legally counted as part of the means test until in recent years.

You see, savers are penalised as they will have to spend their money to get full entitlements and yet those who have a mortgage(bigger the better) are protected by dumping their savings into a gaff. Thats the loophole which is unjust to the prudent savers.

bridgitt

Gurgle wrote: »

You get jobseekers benefit for up to a year after you lose your job, and its not means tested (depends on your PRSI contributions).

Wrong. I quote from the goverments own website on the matter :
"Self-employed people pay Class S PRSI. Class S PRSI only covers you for certain social welfare payments. It does not cover you for Jobseeker’s Benefit.
However, if you worked as an employee in the last 4 years, you may have paid Class A PRSI and should apply to your Social Welfare Local Office for Jobseeker’s Benefit."
http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcont...-unemployment/

Gurgle wrote: »

If you haven't worked in over a year, and you have tens of thousands in the bank - why do you think you should be entitled to social welfare?

It does not matter if you have worked in over a year or not, you do not get any dole / unemploymenty benefit or unemployment assistance from the government ( even though you may have paids hundreds of thousands tax in your lifetime ). You may indeed have put aside for your pension / old age tens of thousands in your bank account if you have worked and saved hard for years. If you have a parnter working, property or assets you do not get any dole if you have no work / income. This only applies to self employed.

Gurgle

bridgitt wrote: »

Wrong. I quote from the goverments own website on the matter :
"Self-employed people pay Class S PRSI. Class S PRSI only covers you for certain social welfare payments. It does not cover you for Jobseeker’s Benefit.
However, if you worked as an employee in the last 4 years, you may have paid Class A PRSI and should apply to your Social Welfare Local Office for Jobseeker’s Benefit."
http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcont...-unemployment/
It does not matter if you have worked in over a year or not, you do not get any dole / unemploymenty benefit or unemployment assistance from the government ( even though you may have paids hundreds of thousands tax in your lifetime ). You may indeed have put aside for your pension / old age tens of thousands in your bank account if you have worked and saved hard for years. If you have a parnter working, property or assets you do not get any dole if you have no work / income. This only applies to self employed.

Ah, so if a self-employed person with €50k in the bank gets made redundant (by themselves) they don't qualify for social welfare.
I see.

Gurgle

gurramok wrote: »

You do as in the scenario of having a mortgage.

Interest relief is a reduction in your PAYE tax bill based on the interest paid on your mortgage. Again I'll ask - how do you get interest relief if you don't have an income?

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, but will there be jobs in 12 months time? Its a big risk.

Whats a big risk?
If, a year after losing your job, you can support youself then you should support yourself. If you can't, you'll get social welfare.

gurramok wrote: »

You see, savers are penalised as they will have to spend their money to get full entitlements and yet those who have a mortgage(bigger the better) are protected by dumping their savings into a gaff. Thats the loophole which is unjust to the prudent savers.

What an ass-over-backwards way of looking at social welfare.

You have to get rid of your savings so that you can claim the social welfare you're entitled to!

:rolleyes:

gurramok

Gurgle wrote: »

Interest relief is a reduction in your PAYE tax bill based on the interest paid on your mortgage. Again I'll ask - how do you get interest relief if you don't have an income?

Its called supplement rather than 'relief', mixup of words, apologies. Both are still subsidies.
Think there is also mix-up between what self-employed get and what paye get when they lose their job on this thread
You are automatically entitled to have your mortgage interest paid when you are claiming the dole. Have a look at http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/mortgage_interest_supplement

Gurgle wrote:

Whats a big risk?
If, a year after losing your job, you can support youself then you should support yourself. If you can't, you'll get social welfare.

So you rather that all the savings be spent and then one claims welfare with the free house to come with it?

Gurgle wrote:

What an ass-over-backwards way of looking at social welfare.

You have to get rid of your savings so that you can claim the social welfare you're entitled to!

:rolleyes:

Thats the way it works. If one hides their savings(could be for a rainy day, or for a house when they get employed again), they have to spend it or hide it to get welfare.
Yes, its insane, but then again why should a junkie be entitled to continuous dole and yet the worker who paid stamps & saved prudently be penalised to have the same benefits?

Gurgle

gurramok wrote: »

Its called supplement rather than 'relief', mixup of words, apologies.

Ah, OK. I'm with you now.
From the state's point of view:
Option A: Help a person to keep paying their mortgage and not lose their house.
Option B: Let them lose the house, then provide accomodation for them.

A is cheaper and generally short-term.

gurramok wrote: »

So you rather that all the savings be spent and then one claims welfare with the free house to come with it?

No, obviously it's better if nobody needs the dole at all whether they're working or not. But why would it be alright for the government take PAYE from me to pay you the dole when you have €50k in the bank and I have nothing?

gurramok wrote: »

Thats the way it works. If one hides their savings(could be for a rainy day, or for a house when they get employed again), they have to spend it or hide it to get welfare.

As above, you're hiding your assets so that you can live off somebody else's work.

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, its insane, but then again why should a junkie be entitled to continuous dole and yet the worker who paid stamps & saved prudently be penalised to have the same benefits?

You won't get an arguement from me on this point.
I'd have everybody on JA pushing a big wheel around to generate electricty in order to earn the dole.

Rantan

Gurgle wrote: »

Ah, OK. I'm with you now.

You won't get an arguement from me on this point.
I'd have everybody on JA pushing a big wheel around to generate electricty in order to earn the dole.

so were you to lose your job in the morning I assume you'd be happy pushing the same wheel?

gurramok

Gurgle wrote: »

Ah, OK. I'm with you now.
From the state's point of view:
Option A: Help a person to keep paying their mortgage and not lose their house.
Option B: Let them lose the house, then provide accomodation for them.

A is cheaper and generally short-term.

No, obviously it's better if nobody needs the dole at all whether they're working or not. But why would it be alright for the government take PAYE from me to pay you the dole when you have €50k in the bank and I have nothing?

As above, you're hiding your assets so that you can live off somebody else's work.

House is an asset which you have and not penalised to have.

On point A, if that person has savings for a deposit for a house but finds themselves out of work and struggles to find employment for a long time,the state will have to pay for a roof over their heads through Rent Allowance(reduced when compared to others due to means test) but the person with the savings gets feck all benefits.
Now if that person used that money for a mortgage instead to hide their savings, it will be paid for(mortgage interest is high in initial years) a long time with a guaranteed roof over their head and full entitlement to benefits without penalty.

You see how its screwed up?