70% of companies have not had pay cuts

Scofflaw

Sand wrote: »

@Scofflaw


I believe that is a generous application of the term effectively.

Effective implies substance - the use of a SPV is an accounting trick. Ireland will owe the banks 54 billion on the bonds they issue, but due to a neat little bit of accounting inspired by Enron and epic accounting malpractise throughout history, its merely looks like Ireland doesnt owe the banks 54 billion.

No matter if that 54 billion sits on the SPVs balance sheets or the states balance sheet, we the taxpayer still owe it. The use of the SPV is an attempt to hide that reality behind a mess of legal agreements, public-private ownership and gentlemens agreements.

But effectively, we still owe that 54 billion to the banks. Any meaningful, realistic view of Irelands debt obligations will take it into account no matter where it sits.

Indeed - I don't disagree at all. NAMA is only "off the balance sheet" in respect of our euro zone stability commitment of 3%. However, the way that that has been agreed in principle means there's no government motive that I can see to take debts that could go in NAMA and put them where they would count towards commitment, which is what NewDubliner appears to be suggesting is happening. If anything, the motivation would seem to run the other way, which is in any case what would be usual in such instances.

Claiming that the deficit includes "hidden bank bailouts" is psychologically comforting if one would prefer not to face the fact that government current expenditure is grossly out of balance with tax receipts, but I can't see what it would gain the government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

seclachi

Nama seems to be more of a case of mom and pop putting the house up as collateral for the naughty youngsters than a straight up hand out to the banks.

Sand

More a case of the kids stealing mom and pops carkeys and going on a joyride round the estate...who knows, maybe we will see the car back in one piece.

seangal

meditraitor wrote: »

Thats a very valid point, a lot of these PS threads strike a cord with the common man because of the vast difference in renumeration the PS enjoy but I can also understand the PS workers for being a bit miffed at the constant attacks (justified in most cases,not all).

They only did what anyone of us would do and pushed(using unions) for higher pay and expenses. Lucky for them and to the detriment of the country they got it because of a weak Government.

The real culprits are FF and to some extent the PD/Greens for getting into bed with them and watching the economy go up in flames because of ignorant/arrogant deceisions made over the last 10 years.



To any PS workers I would like to say please dont expect an easy ride but most people understand why your fighting to stay in the cushy numbers you have.

A lot of public sector do that have a cushy number
Those public sector workers that went out to that crash in galway to find 4 girls dead have no cushy number and most people giving out about public sector workers here would not do it for any money.

Shelflife

I work in the private sector and employ 10 people, the only ones who took a pay cut were the owners me and my wife, in the retail sector we were legally forced to give a 2.5% pay increase even though we couldnt afford it.
we had to cut staff hours and work them ourselves, so if asked were there staff pay cuts ? the answer would be no, but its not giving you a true picture.

seangal

ye can bash the public sector as much as yea want but we are in a mess because of the private sector greed greed and there price fixing which lead to 5% inflation which lead to high wage claims
Here is an example
Banker
Estate agents
Solicitors
Accountants
Builders
ALL worked together to create the housing bubble
Publicans
Restaurant’s
Retailers
All inflated there prices to get more profit
like where in the world would you pay €7.50 for a bottle of miller but u pay it in a pub in Ireland and they u see on the label " Not of individual SALE" which mean it came form a super market or even worse the north of Ireland. A steak cost € 26 euro in a Restaurant
Private sector GREED cause all this full stop and shame on yea all
Yes public sector got BENCHMARKING which for most worked out at 1% a year over 7 years but the big wage rise came from wage agreement matching inflation caused buy private sector and if i recall we all took the tax cuts when they were given

Count Dooku

seangal wrote: »

ye can bash the public sector as much as yea want but we are in a mess because of the private sector greed greed and there price fixing which lead to 5% inflation which lead to high wage claims
Here is an example
Banker
Estate agents
Solicitors
Accountants
Builders
ALL worked together to create the housing bubble

You forgot to include parts of public services as well(Central Bank, Financial regulator etc), which instead supervising those greedy bustards, decided to get pay increase instead

MaceFace

seangal wrote: »

ye can bash the public sector as much as yea want but we are in a mess because of the private sector greed greed and there price fixing which lead to 5% inflation which lead to high wage claims
Here is an example
Banker
Estate agents
Solicitors
Accountants
Builders
ALL worked together to create the housing bubble
Publicans
Restaurant’s
Retailers
All inflated there prices to get more profit
like where in the world would you pay €7.50 for a bottle of miller but u pay it in a pub in Ireland and they u see on the label " Not of individual SALE" which mean it came form a super market or even worse the north of Ireland. A steak cost € 26 euro in a Restaurant
Private sector GREED cause all this full stop and shame on yea all
Yes public sector got BENCHMARKING which for most worked out at 1% a year over 7 years but the big wage rise came from wage agreement matching inflation caused buy private sector and if i recall we all took the tax cuts when they were given

What about people who sold their houses for huge prices?

Remember that no one forced anyone to pay 26 quid for a steak of 7.50 for a beer - it was your choice to spend that (and more the fool anyone who did).

I don't buy your argument that inflation resulted in pay rises - it was the other way around - people had so much money that others could charge what they wanted as we were all rich.

MysticalRain

seangal wrote: »

ye can bash the public sector as much as yea want but we are in a mess because of the private sector greed greed and there price fixing which lead to 5% inflation which lead to high wage claims
Here is an example
Banker
Estate agents
Solicitors
Accountants
Builders
ALL worked together to create the housing bubble
Publicans
Restaurant’s
Retailers
All inflated there prices to get more profit
like where in the world would you pay €7.50 for a bottle of miller but u pay it in a pub in Ireland and they u see on the label " Not of individual SALE" which mean it came form a super market or even worse the north of Ireland. A steak cost € 26 euro in a Restaurant
Private sector GREED cause all this full stop and shame on yea all
Yes public sector got BENCHMARKING which for most worked out at 1% a year over 7 years but the big wage rise came from wage agreement matching inflation caused buy private sector and if i recall we all took the tax cuts when they were given

And where are "the people" in all of this? Blaming developers and greedy retailers for taking people's money is like a gambler blaming Paddy power for putting him into debt. It's kind of right in a way, but it also misses the point.

If you think your Miller beer is too expensive, then buy two bottles, not three. If a restaurant is too expensive, don't go there. Shop in the north if you think retailers in the South are too expensive.

I can understand why people want to blame the greedy vested interests, and they do share a lot of the blame. But at some point the notion of personal responsibility has to apply. Don't get me started on how many of these Muppets voted Bertie Ahern and his party into power for three consecutive terms.

SkepticOne

Sand wrote: »

Not in this case because we are giving the banks 54 billion in bonds but we are not getting 54 billion in cash in return. Instead we are getting maybe 30 billion of toxic loans in return.

Over time the costs of NAMA will impact the government (the SPV structure is Enron style accounting - its debt we owe, to the banks ironically enough) but the 26 billion deficit has nothing to do with interest on loans to do bank bailouts. There havent been any.

Still borrowing as far as I can see since the country will still owe the total amount.

ceret

InReality wrote: »

Seen this statistic in the papers recently.

Puts the private sector wailing in a new light ..

Has anyone got a link for this? It was the General Secretary of the Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants (AHCPS) that claimed this. I've emailed them asking for a source, but I haven't heard anything yet.