50% of Irish workers pay NO income tax

munchkin_utd

I was shocked to hear this from the minister for finance. There was mention of it by various economists but i couldn't never get a handle on it from CSO or anything.

For 2010, it is estimated that approximately half of income earners will pay no income tax. While they may have some exposure to the income levy, having 50% of earners out of the tax net is not viable if we want to fund the range of services we expect Government to provide.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspxF=DAL20091117.xml&Node=N737#N737

I knew the giveaways from Bertie back in the day were pretty generous, but to decide that half the working population of the country is exempt from paying their way in contributing to the running of the country is approaching fiscal lunacy.
Oh, and here's one for those who say that the majority of people are paying too much taxes and the rich should be screwed (with an assumption that they are paying next to nothing)

In overall terms 4% of income earners contribute approximately half of the income tax yield.

And the solution of the unions to the countries budgetary problems is that high earners exclusively should receive tax rises?
If some of that 4% of the population decides to up sticks and go abroad then Ireland will see even worse times ahead.

murphaph

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I was shocked to hear this from the minister for finance. There was mention of it by various economists but i couldn't never get a handle on it from CSO or anything.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspxF=DAL20091117.xml&Node=N737#N737

I knew the giveaways from Bertie back in the day were pretty generous, but to decide that half the working population of the country is exempt from paying their way in contributing to the running of the country is approaching fiscal lunacy.
Oh, and here's one for those who say that the majority of people are paying too much taxes and the rich should be screwed (with an assumption that they are paying next to nothing)


And the solution of the unions to the countries budgetary problems is that high earners exclusively should receive tax rises?
If some of that 4% of the population decides to up sticks and go abroad then Ireland will see even worse times ahead.

I said the same earlier on another thread. It's crazy. EVERYONE should contribute something to the exchequer even if their income is low. The 'rich' are already contributing (as can be seen) much more proportionally to the 'poor'. This blows the union calls to "tax the rich (so we can keep our public servants in the manner to which they have become accustomed)" out of the water.

Taxipete29

The income tax base does need to be widened. Some of that 50% have fallen out of the tax net due to recent pay cuts. There is no doubt that more people need to be brought back in.

However we are still a low tax economy and to say that the rich are stretched and will break and flee if we raise taxes has no basis in fact.

Mr. Presentable

If you tax the lower paid, you must reduce welfare to keep any incentive to work. But I'd be in favour of everyone earning paying tax, and welfare being cut by 20% and to subsistence level for anyone on the dole more than six months.

Dannyboy83

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1118/tasc.html


Gap between low and high earnings widens
Wednesday, 18 November 2009 15:16

Gap in earnings between the highest and the lowest paid in this country is widening.

The independent think tank, Tasc issued a report called the 'Hierarchy Of Earning sattributes and Privilege' examines the distribution of wealth and income in Ireland.

The research is backed by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

Prof Terry McDonagh of NUIG is one of the author's of the report, he says the widening of the gap between the better off and those on lower incomes is a result of the Government not applying the resources that were available during the celtic tiger.

Paula Clancy, Director of TASC said the findings show that this is not the time for the Government to reduce Social Welfare payments.

The report also found that 20% of people in the country are living in households where the combined income is less than €20,000.

TASC is an independent think-tank dedicated to combating Ireland's high level of economic inequality and ensuring that public policy has equality at its core.

I guess if 50% of people are paying no income tax, there must still be suffering from other flat taxes, such as VAT.
Otherwise, wage reductions and loss of employment are bigger than I previously guessed.

Stark

Taxipete29 wrote: »

However we are still a low tax economy and to say that the rich are stretched and will break and flee if we raise taxes has no basis in fact.

Is that based solely on PAYE or does it take into account PRSI, income levies, health levies and stealth taxation?

Everyone in the country pays tax in the form of VAT. However, given that more and more people are spending their money outside of the state and people are spending less, it might be time to reconsider how much money we take through income tax and how much we take through VAT. It would be worth looking at broadening the income tax base and reducing VAT imo.

KindOfIrish

Just becase 50% of work force earn min. wage or under 10euro ph. ALL hotels, shops, supermarkets, pubs, restaurants, petrol stations, many factories, agreeculture etc etc pay min. wage or so. You may be not aware of that.
If the Gov. will tax them, it will be better for them to give up job alltogether.

Stark

Stark wrote: »

It would be worth looking at broadening the income tax base and reducing VAT imo.

That really does seem like the best way forward.

Taxipete29

Stark wrote: »

Is that based solely on PAYE or does it take into account PRSI, income levies, health levies and stealth taxation?

Everyone in the country pays tax in the form of VAT. However, given that more and more people are spending their money outside of the state and people are spending less, it might be time to reconsider how much money we take through income tax and how much we take through VAT. It would be worth looking at broadening the income tax base and reducing VAT imo.

My comment is based on income tax. Consumption taxes filled the coffers in the boom years. Now they have dried up its time to, as you suggest broaden the tax baseand reduce VAT( by a significant amount)

This would also serve to increase consumer spending( provided the retailers dont see it as a chance to screw people)

Euro_Kraut

Taxipete29 wrote: »

My comment is based on income tax.

You mean PAYE. The Income Levy for exmaple is on all worker and is most certainly an 'Income Tax'

Tipp Man

nipplenuts wrote: »

If you tax the lower paid, you must reduce welfare to keep any incentive to work. But I'd be in favour of everyone earning paying tax, and welfare being cut by 20% and to subsistence level for anyone on the dole more than six months.

Top post and catches the whole problem, social too high, low earners better off on dole than pay tax so take them out of tax net.

Its a vicious circle but you have highlighted the answer

Taxipete29

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

You mean PAYE. The Income Levy for exmaple is on all worker and is most certainly an 'Income Tax'

No I meant income tax and thats what I said.

Stark

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

You mean PAYE. The Income Levy for exmaple is on all worker and is most certainly an 'Income Tax'

People on less than €18,304 p.a. are exempt from paying the income levy.

Euro_Kraut

Stark wrote: »

People on less than €18,304 p.a. are exempt from paying the income levy.

True. Its was oringally to levied on all workers but was subsquently ammended.

Does this 50% figure included workers outside the PAYE sector? Taxipete seems to think that it includes not PAYE income taxes. Is this the case?

namenotavailablE

I think that the mini-budget changed that exemption value from €18304 pa to €15028 pa

Taxipete29

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

True. Its was oringally to levied on all workers but was subsquently ammended.

Does this 50% figure included workers outside the PAYE sector? Taxipete seems to think that it includes not PAYE income taxes. Is this the case?

Thats not what I said. I said Irelands income tax levels were in general low compared to other countries

dvpower

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Just becase 50% of work force earn min. wage or under 10euro ph. ALL hotels, shops, supermarkets, pubs, restaurants, petrol stations, many factories, agreeculture etc etc pay min. wage or so. You may be not aware of that.
If the Gov. will tax them, it will be better for them to give up job alltogether.

nipplenuts wrote: »

If you tax the lower paid, you must reduce welfare to keep any incentive to work. But I'd be in favour of everyone earning paying tax, and welfare being cut by 20% and to subsistence level for anyone on the dole more than six months.

Taxing all income (including welfare payments) would solve this problem. A proper working person (PAYE) tax credit would provide the incentive to get off of welfare and into work.

munchkin_utd

Hang on. Taxing those now exempted need not be like some sort of spanish inquisition that drives people in their droves onto social welfare. It can bring in substantial revenue without much pain to the lower paid.

Say theres 2 million currently working of the population of 4million +, then theres 1 million paying not a cent of tax (has anyone the proper exact figures?).

Now, if they paid an average of something tiny like a tenner a week in tax each,
thats 10 million a week to the government
or 520 million euro a year.

So for a meagre tenner a week the government borrows 520million less in a year.
And for 10 or 20 euro a week less, someone now exempt from income tax will not chuck it all in and go on the dole. Nor will they emmigrate half ways round the world.

A tenner a week. Thats a pack of fags, and a couple of cans of beer.
Its 2 pints in the pub.
Its not too much to ask for people to contribute.

seclachi

What I would like to see is if there is any actualy gain in taxing the lower brackets ? I think prices in the country would have to drop by another bit to make it sustainable, not to mention a serious hack and slash job on the dole.

I read this on the indo.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/welfare-trap-leaves-couples--better-off-on-the-dole-1941143.html

the TDLR version is that two people earning 35k would actually be better off on the dole taking into account taxes. I have a feeling it might not be strictly correct, but if its true its crazy, 35k is pretty far away from minimum wage.

ntlbell

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Hang on. Taxing those now exempted need not be like some sort of spanish inquisition that drives people in their droves onto social welfare. It can bring in substantial revenue without much pain to the lower paid.

Say theres 2 million currently working of the population of 4million +, then theres 1 million paying not a cent of tax (has anyone the proper exact figures?).

Now, if they paid an average of something tiny like a tenner a week in tax each,
thats 10 million a week to the government
or 520 million euro a year.

So for a meagre tenner a week the government borrows 520million less in a year.
And for 10 or 20 euro a week less, someone now exempt from income tax will not chuck it all in and go on the dole. Nor will they emmigrate half ways round the world.

A tenner a week. Thats a pack of fags, and a couple of cans of beer.
Its 2 pints in the pub.
Its not too much to ask for people to contribute.

if social payments are reduced significantly in the budget as they should be, there will no flood gates to the hatches

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

if social payments are reduced significantly in the budget as they should be, there will no flood gates to the hatches

They'll be reduced slightly I'd say, but not by nearly enough. You can see it all over boards. Any mention of a SW cut and all of a sudden every recipient is up in arms.

There's lots of Public Service workers who agree that their income is too high in the current climate. I'm yet to meet a SW recipient who thinks the same - and that includes single people living at home.

Euro_Kraut

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Thats not what I said. I said Irelands income tax levels were in general low compared to other countries

Sorry. Misread your post.

K-9

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Just becase 50% of work force earn min. wage or under 10euro ph. ALL hotels, shops, supermarkets, pubs, restaurants, petrol stations, many factories, agreeculture etc etc pay min. wage or so. You may be not aware of that.
If the Gov. will tax them, it will be better for them to give up job alltogether.

Think the figures where about 10% of the work force on minimum wage. That probably has increased but the other big sections of the 50% would be part time workers and also married couples with 1 half half staying at home.

DublinWriter

Taxipete29 wrote: »

However we are still a low tax economy

Bullsh*t. We're a low direct tax economy.

Factor in things such as VRT, duty on alcohol & tobacco, stamp duty and stop quoting the pre 9th December 2009 FF party mantra.

Taxipete29

Taxipete29 wrote: »

My comment is based on income tax. Consumption taxes filled the coffers in the boom years. Now they have dried up its time to, as you suggest broaden the tax baseand reduce VAT( by a significant amount)

This would also serve to increase consumer spending( provided the retailers dont see it as a chance to screw people)

DublinWriter wrote: »

Bullsh*t. We're a low direct tax economy.

Factor in things such as VRT, duty on alcohol & tobacco, stamp duty and stop quoting the pre 9th December 2009 FF party mantra.

Read the whole thread before trying to correct me.

And if you think I am quoting FF anything you obviously pay little attention to this forum.

silverharp

also we need to bring all the "hobby farmers" into the tax net who else gets to write their "losses" against any PAYE liability

Daithinski

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I knew the giveaways from Bertie back in the day were pretty generous, but to decide that half the working population of the country is exempt from paying their way in contributing to the running of the country is approaching fiscal lunacy.

These decisions were made during the good times when the government was getting in loads of tax from vrt, vat and stamp duty. Income tax was just a bit of cream on top.

And if the government had have raised income taxes during this period they would have been voted out, and FG would have replaced them with promises of lowering said income taxes.

What else can be expected from a populist government, who is only responding to the demands of the public.

Fiscal lunacy was demanded by the vast majority of people in this
country.

PS I'm not sticking up for FF, I loathe the bunch of smarmy sleveens almost as much as I hate Thierry Henry!

ardmacha

Fiscal lunacy was demanded by the vast majority of people in this
country.

Perhaps. But people might be capable of making the right choice if the data was presented to them. If the Dept of Finance or the Central Bank cannot produce a credible macroeconomic analysis then why expect a voter or trade union to do so?

Scofflaw

Daithinski wrote: »

These decisions were made during the good times when the government was getting in loads of tax from vrt, vat and stamp duty. Income tax was just a bit of cream on top.

And if the government had have raised income taxes during this period they would have been voted out, and FG would have replaced them with promises of lowering said income taxes.

What else can be expected from a populist government, who is only responding to the demands of the public.

Fiscal lunacy was demanded by the vast majority of people in this
country.

PS I'm not sticking up for FF, I loathe the bunch of smarmy sleveens almost as much as I hate Thierry Henry!

All regrettably true. It's also worth recalling, when we're complaining about benchmarking, that we re-elected the government responsible*.

cordially,
Scofflaw

*obviously that's a very loose use of the word - 'culpable' might be better.

K-9

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps. But people might be capable of making the right choice if the data was presented to them. If the Dept of Finance or the Central Bank cannot produce a credible macroeconomic analysis then why expect a voter or trade union to do so?

I agree with what you are saying, but hell, even SF reduced their taxation policy. Low tax and high spend became the accepted political policy with no dissenters, and by God, we are paying for it now.

FG wanted to cut Stamp Duty in late 06 to help FTB's.

The legacy of these policies: We now have low tax revenues and high expenditure.

Johnboymac

nipplenuts wrote: »

If you tax the lower paid, you must reduce welfare to keep any incentive to work. But I'd be in favour of everyone earning paying tax, and welfare being cut by 20% and to subsistence level for anyone on the dole more than six months.

couldnt have put it nicer myself...and the mayor of limerick also had the right idea but was ridiculed for expressing his opinion!!!