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abolish the minimum wage
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Yep but thats for u18's0 -
Hold on, a lot of people who earn a lot are working damn hard for it and have a lot of responsibility on their shoulders - quite often its the lower paid who can stand up and walk out the door at 5 care free. It's way too easy to say Jo is earning 200k, thats too much for 1 person. Fact is he could be better value to his company than Pat who is on 30k
Does the worker on the lowest wage not work hard?? I am not saying that the person on 200k doesnt earn it. The question is would they be so much worse off if they earned 150K or 130K? the answer is no.
I have no doubt the person at the top has more value in respect to the fact that there are less people capable of doing the 200k job than doing the 30k job. The market however gets carried away with itself when assigning value to these top positions. Will the person who earns 200k refuse to do the job for 150K??No because they can live just as comfortable on 150k as they can on 200k.
The market drives up wages for those at the top and drives them down for those at the bottom. There needs to be a point in the middle where lower incomes can remain steady and higher wages can be reduced.
Take the recent AIB example. Guy gives up €633K to work for €500k so he can be the man in charge. More responsibilty, less money. I dont think he is complaining though. More of this and less of trying to erode away the wages of those at the bottom rung of the ladder0 -
Is our minimum wage competitive with respect to our competitors? If it is then leave it be, if it isn't (as I suspect) then reduce it.
Anyone who says that it has no effect on (un)employment is living in cloud cuckoo land. There are countless example of small firms where the owner is doing more work than is healthy and at the same time letting his/her staff go because the minimum wage is more than the business can bare. I personally know business owners in this situation. They are not "raking it in" at the expense of their downtrodden staff and would like not to let staff go, but their head has to rule their heart and something has to give.
If we drop minimum wage (to say €5 an hour) then we absolutely MUST drop welfare (needs to happen anyway) to a level where it is more attractive to work for €5 an hour than to sit at home.
Ireland's economy went badly off track when we started paying ourselves too much in comparison to our near neaighbours. That needs adjusting or we won't exit recession as Ireland doesn't have anything "special" to offer the world. We failed to develop a strong indigenous knowledge based economy (like the finns did after their economy nearly collapsed) and now we must all accept that failure and move on on lower pay and hopefully learn the valuable lesson that we do actually need to develop indigenous industry or forever be at the mercy of FDI and its whims.0 -
I don't think he has, the minimum wage is a large blanket across many sector's. companies big and small, stating a company with a turnover of 1m based on x amount of staff can afford to pay minimum wage is not an economic argument to keep it.
I'd actually like to hear some argument's too keep it.
There is no real benefit to putting an artificial floor on wages. it doesn't benefit anyone.
When you take the other side of the coin a SME with 8-10 staff who are now struggling, they could maybe keep all staff on at 6-7e or let two go.
As the choice is removed from them it means they _have_ to let someone go rather than opting to reduce the wage.
If you bring in an appeal process where company's can show their books and prove they can't afford to apply for some form of exception, the employee will just go to somewhere else.
remove it and let demands of the job market set the price.
open market my arse.
An SME with 8-10 staff all on the minimum wage? I'd be interested to see an example of one of those, unless you're leaving out the staff that aren't on the minimum wage.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Oh come on, nobody uses the metric of €20 per hour per 2 workers.sorry I was saying that he wanted to employ 2, hence the €20 an hour which brings it up to what 34-35k per annum which is a fair bit to a small business no matter what way you cut it
Re-read the law where such limits tend to be seasonal averages and that it only applies to certain types of work. Maybe its inappropriate for you to work extended hours? Do you think it was right for bus drivers to systematically work 60 hour weeks? Or train drivers to work every day for weeks on end without a day off?Excellent post which also highlights the utter stupidity of some of our employment laws - for example if i want to work more than 48 hours a week i am breaking the law if i do - irregardless of if i am happy to do it, need the money, whatever. Its madness0 -
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Is our minimum wage competitive with respect to our competitors? If it is then leave it be, if it isn't (as I suspect) then reduce it.
Anyone who says that it has no effect on (un)employment is living in cloud cuckoo land. There are countless example of small firms where the owner is doing more work than is healthy and at the same time letting his/her staff go because the minimum wage is more than the business can bare. I personally know business owners in this situation. They are not "raking it in" at the expense of their downtrodden staff and would like not to let staff go, but their head has to rule their heart and something has to give.
If we drop minimum wage (to say €5 an hour) then we absolutely MUST drop welfare (needs to happen anyway) to a level where it is more attractive to work for €5 an hour than to sit at home.
Ireland's economy went badly off track when we started paying ourselves too much in comparison to our near neaighbours. That needs adjusting or we won't exit recession as Ireland doesn't have anything "special" to offer the world. We failed to develop a strong indigenous knowledge based economy (like the finns did after their economy nearly collapsed) and now we must all accept that failure and move on on lower pay and hopefully learn the valuable lesson that we do actually need to develop indigenous industry or forever be at the mercy of FDI and its whims.
So we drop the min wage to €5 an hour. Now by how much does the economy contract as you have reduced by about 40% the wages of those most likely to spend all their wages. Suddenly we have a whole new level of working poor. You think emigration is bad now, wait until you do this.0 -
Is our minimum wage competitive with respect to our competitors? If it is then leave it be, if it isn't (as I suspect) then reduce it.
Anyone who says that it has no effect on (un)employment is living in cloud cuckoo land. There are countless example of small firms where the owner is doing more work than is healthy and at the same time letting his/her staff go because the minimum wage is more than the business can bare. I personally know business owners in this situation. They are not "raking it in" at the expense of their downtrodden staff and would like not to let staff go, but their head has to rule their heart and something has to give.
I don't think I'm living in cloud-cuckoo land, having been an SME employer. I'm waiting for something more than "it stands to reason" plus a couple of anecdotes, which is what you've given above.
A minimum wage is a pretty large thing, it's been studied by economists and policy-makers across the whole world - if there's a provable link between the minimum wage and unemployment, then somebody somewhere has proved it. If there isn't a provable link, or none of you who have come forward to assert there's a link know the proof of the link, then it's very very clear you're all talking through your hats.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »Well look if there are management problems also then I think these companies have more issues than the minimum wage is to high. I think you are the naive one, thinking that I will rise to your obvious attempt to bait me into an argument that is sliding off the topic
The fact is the minimum wage is there to protect employees who in some industries were subjected to subsistence wages for the work they did.
The problem in this country is not the minimum wage. Its the people who work in jobs that are not at this level having a sense of entitlement to more than the minimum wage. There is a level of snobbery by many people who see any job even remotley close to the minimum wage beneath them. Admitted this attitude has changed a bit considering the changes in the economy but it does exist.
Take the example of Retail. The average retail worker is earning only the
minimum wage for that sector, yet the next pay jump in your average symbol store or supermarket is supervisor/ assistant manager who can be earning double that amount. Are they doing double the work?? Yes they have more responsibility, but does that equate to deserving of double pay?? No.
The reason they are paid good salaries is to prevent employee fraud which is far more likely at this management level. The problem is not the minimum wage, its peoples attitudes in general
I wasn't the one who brought it up I was suggesting it was irrelevant to the minimum wage "value", try following the posts. So i'm not trying to bait anyone, but continue to make assumptions.
minimum wage is not the problem, it's one of the problems.
international companies are moving to countries's where they can get the same work done cheaper. by creating an artifical floor it makes us uncompetitive.
It puts of small business's owners like our example of the builder in creating jobs.
it's costing jobs in the SME sector.
the fact is there is no positives the market should set the wage not the government.
Stay out of the banks, stay out of the housing market and stay out of the jobs market. the floor will find it's own bottom and everything else will be relative to that floor.
rent,housing, cost of food etc0 -
Is our minimum wage competitive with respect to our competitors? If it is then leave it be, if it isn't (as I suspect) then reduce it...
Why focus on the minimum wage? Some of the lack of competitiveness that has emerged in Ireland is attributable to wages, but very little of it is obviously linked to the minimum wage rate. Was Dell priced out of Ireland by people being paid the minimum wage?
I believe that pay rates generally need to come down and in that context the minimum wage might come down a bit also (I'm assuming some fall in cost of living, so that real values are more or less maintained).0 -
I wasn't the one who brought it up I was suggesting it was irrelevant to the minimum wage "value", try following the posts. So i'm not trying to bait anyone, but continue to make assumptions.
minimum wage is not the problem, it's one of the problems.
international companies are moving to countries's where they can get the same work done cheaper. by creating an artifical floor it makes us uncompetitive.
It puts of small business's owners like our example of the builder in creating jobs.
it's costing jobs in the SME sector.
the fact is there is no positives the market should set the wage not the government.
Stay out of the banks, stay out of the housing market and stay out of the jobs market. the floor will find it's own bottom and everything else will be relative to that floor.
rent,housing, cost of food etc
You seem to forget it was staying out of the banks that has caused much of the mess in this country. Now the mighty market is relying on the Govt and the people to keep it afloat. The market may solve everything in theory where you dont have to think about real people. Thankfully thats not the world we live in.0 -
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So your own experience (and hence anecdote) are "allowable evidence" and mine is not?I don't think I'm living in cloud-cuckoo land, having been an SME employer. I'm waiting for something more than "it stands to reason" plus a couple of anecdotes, which is what you've given above.
A minimum wage is a pretty large thing, it's been studied by economists and policy-makers across the whole world - if there's a provable link between the minimum wage and unemployment, then somebody somewhere has proved it. If there isn't a provable link, or none of you who have come forward to assert there's a link know the proof of the link, then it's very very clear you're all talking through your hats.
cordially,
Scofflaw
Minimum wages have indeed been studied and there is still no universal acceptance of either side of the argument. This is just my opinion on the matter (but I don't need to preface everything I say with that, as it's obvious these are our personal opinions) but it is my personal belief that they are not a good thing as once you decide to have one, you have to constantly adjust what level it is set at and balance other factors at the same time. Germany, for example, despite being "socialist" has absolutely no statutory minimum wage. Someone in a shop can (and are in some places, rightly or wrongly) be paid €1 or €2 per hour. Germany believes the minimum wage is a barrier to employment and so doesn't have any.
Ireland's policy (at the moment) like the UK, France etc. is at odds with this. Before this global credit crisis, Germany's economy was recovering at a nice steady pace with unemployment falling. I believe it will resume this course when the global element of this credit crisis begins to wain.0 -
This is the same argument the PS unions use not to cut wages. It's circular, it's based on the same economics of buying and selling houses to each other at inflated prices and letting the govt take a nice wedge with each transaction.Taxipete29 wrote: »So we drop the min wage to €5 an hour. Now by how much does the economy contract as you have reduced by about 40% the wages of those most likely to spend all their wages. Suddenly we have a whole new level of working poor. You think emigration is bad now, wait until you do this.
Ireland needs to lower all costs to regain competitive advantage with the Eurozone at a minimum. Ireland needs to be cheaper if anything than Belgium or France or Germany as we have additional transport costs, being an island, to factor in!0 -
And drop the prices for at least 80 - 100%. Overwise it will be impossible to survive on 5 ph.
If we drop minimum wage (to say €5 an hour) then we absolutely MUST drop welfare (needs to happen anyway) to a level where it is more attractive to work for €5 an hour than to sit at home.0 -
So your own experience (and hence anecdote) are "allowable evidence" and mine is not?
No, but I can set one off against the other. What's lacking here is something other than anecdotes and "stands to reason".Minimum wages have indeed been studied and there is still no universal acceptance of either side of the argument. This is just my opinion on the matter (but I don't need to preface everything I say with that, as it's obvious these are our personal opinions) but it is my personal belief that they are not a good thing as once you decide to have one, you have to constantly adjust what level it is set at and balance other factors at the same time. Germany, for example, despite being "socialist" has absolutely no statutory minimum wage. Someone in a shop can (and are in some places, rightly or wrongly) be paid €1 or €2 per hour. Germany believes the minimum wage is a barrier to employment and so doesn't have any.
Ireland's policy (at the moment) like the UK, France etc. is at odds with this. Before this global credit crisis, Germany's economy was recovering at a nice steady pace with unemployment falling. I believe it will resume this course when the global element of this credit crisis begins to wain.
It's reasonable that where the question is open, people can cite their personal views as having as much weight as any other, but the thread started with a simple assertion, and so far nobody on the "minimum wage -> unemployment" side of the argument has gone beyond repeating it as an assertion.
Since the discussion is about whether to abolish the minimum wage on the basis that it causes unemployment (even though it apparently didn't during the boom), it should be obvious that some sort of reasoned argument showing that the assertion is true would be a necessary contribution. So far, that hasn't happened - we're just dividing up along lines of belief.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
This may surprise Frau Merkel.Germany, for example, despite being "socialist"
Germany has not national minimum wage, but had lots of regional or industry based agreements.has absolutely no statutory minimum wage. Someone in a shop can (and are in some places, rightly or wrongly) be paid €1 or €2 per hour. Germany believes the minimum wage is a barrier to employment and so doesn't have any.0 -
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Taxipete29 wrote: »You seem to forget it was staying out of the banks that has caused much of the mess in this country. Now the mighty market is relying on the Govt and the people to keep it afloat. The market may solve everything in theory where you dont have to think about real people. Thankfully thats not the world we live in.
This old chestnut.
we live in a world where we're free to get into debt.
you also have to take responsibility for that debt bank or lay man.
in that world banks lend money.
in that world they're is a lot of foolish people who research a week in Spain longer than they do purchasing another investment to add to their winning portfolio.
in that world a clueless government has decided to use people's money who were purdant during the boom times to put their hand in something they shouldn't be in to bail them out.
governments have no right to be in banking, housing or anything else.
the government didn't wander around forcing idiots to buy up every over priced house going.
*WE* the greedy Celtic cubs got ourselves into this mess, no one else.0 -
A couple of issues here.
1 victor the whole ethos of profit sharing is silly, the workers basically risk nothing , get a weekly wage and when the profits roll in they want a cut of that as well. if the business runs at a loss would the workers be willing to cough up to help pay those?
2.scofflaw, if the min wage was lower i could chance taking on some more staff but when you have to pay nearly 20k to employ someone then alot of businesses wont chance new ventures. if i wanted to open a small retail outlet employ say 2 staff thats over 40k , so im afraid to do so, if the min wage was lower and i could employ 2 staff for say 25-30k then you would be more inclined to chance a new venture and hopefully give more wages to more people as the business grows.0 -
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Well, this thread is unlikely to yield a satisfactory outcome as it has been much studied before without a conclusive result. So all we can do is debate it with our own anecdotes and standpoints.No, but I can set one off against the other. What's lacking here is something other than anecdotes and "stands to reason".
It's reasonable that where the question is open, people can cite their personal views as having as much weight as any other, but the thread started with a simple assertion, and so far nobody on the "minimum wage -> unemployment" side of the argument has gone beyond repeating it as an assertion.
Since the discussion is about whether to abolish the minimum wage on the basis that it causes unemployment (even though it apparently didn't during the boom), it should be obvious that some sort of reasoned argument showing that the assertion is true would be a necessary contribution. So far, that hasn't happened - we're just dividing up along lines of belief.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
A couple of issues here.
1 victor the whole ethos of profit sharing is silly, the workers basically risk nothing , get a weekly wage and when the profits roll in they want a cut of that as well. if the business runs at a loss would the workers be willing to cough up to help pay those?
2.scofflaw, if the min wage was lower i could chance taking on some more staff but when you have to pay nearly 20k to employ someone then alot of businesses wont chance new ventures. if i wanted to open a small retail outlet employ say 2 staff thats over 40k , so im afraid to do so, if the min wage was lower and i could employ 2 staff for say 25-30k then you would be more inclined to chance a new venture and hopefully give more wages to more people as the business grows.
That's a fair point, and the closest anyone has come to connecting the two. Unfortunately, that's exactly the situation I outlined it as applying in, and it applies in a very small number of cases - where you can't make it profitable.
In the case you outlined, the usual solution is for the owner to work, or to accept that the business won't be profitable for the first while, until it grows a bit.
Just to give an idea of how few cases minimum wages will apply in, the total proportion of employees receiving minimum wage in Ireland is just 3.1%. That makes it extremely unlikely that the minimum wage has any bearing on our unemployment rate, since it's applicable to only a very small proportion of the workforce. Again, what impact did the minimum wage have on employment rates during the boom?
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Well, this thread is unlikely to yield a satisfactory outcome as it has been much studied before without a conclusive result. So all we can do is debate it with our own anecdotes and standpoints.
I've presented a couple of test cases where it's clear that the minimum wage is irrelevant to the question of a job's existence even though it's the determinant of the job's pay rate. Shelflife has presented a case where the minimum wage could prevent someone undertaking a business venture. Of jobs where the minimum wage is what is being paid, how many fall under the conditions I've presented, and how many would fall under Shelflife's conditions?
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Tell that to all the plc employees with SAYE schemes and share options.1 victor the whole ethos of profit sharing is silly,
I disagree. Half the reason we are where we are now is because of wage inflation. If wage inflation had been more moderate, we wouldn't be looking to cut the minimum wage.the workers basically risk nothing , get a weekly wage and when the profits roll in they want a cut of that as well. if the business runs at a loss would the workers be willing to cough up to help pay those?0 -
Just to give an idea of how few cases minimum wages will apply in, the total proportion of employees receiving minimum wage in Ireland is just 3.1%. That makes it extremely unlikely that the minimum wage has any bearing on our unemployment rate, since it's applicable to only a very small proportion of the workforce. Again, what impact did the minimum wage have on employment rates during the boom?
cordially,
Scofflaw
Thats not the point though, it sets the benchmark by which wages can't go under, so if I want to employ a guy who is worth more than someone on the minimum wage, say he has some skills but isn't a genius, I have to pay him more than the minimum wage, so although he isn;t a minimum wage worker the minimum wage is determing his wage level,
so lower the minimum wage means that a lot more than just minimum wage earners could have their wages reduced0 -
Thats not the point though, it sets the benchmark by which wages can't go under, so if I want to employ a guy who is worth more than someone on the minimum wage, say he has some skills but isn't a genius, I have to pay him more than the minimum wage, so although he isn;t a minimum wage worker the minimum wage is determing his wage level,
so lower the minimum wage means that a lot more than just minimum wage earners could have their wages reduced
How about demonstrating a connection between minimum wage rates and median wage rates? Something like median wage rates being a relatively steady multiple of minimum wage rates, and being entirely different in countries without a minimum wage?
Otherwise, again, it's nothing more than a bare assertion that you believe this to be the case. Are you really saying that we should set economic policy based on what people "feel" to be true, without examining whether it stands up in reality at all?
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
How about demonstrating a connection between minimum wage rates and median wage rates? Something like median wage rates being a relatively steady multiple of minimum wage rates, and being entirely different in countries without a minimum wage?
Otherwise, again, it's nothing more than a bare assertion that you believe this to be the case. Are you really saying that we should set economic policy based on what people "feel" to be true, without examining whether it stands up in reality at all?
cordially,
Scofflaw
It seems logical to most, why should we prove it, should it not be disproved by you??0 -
there is only so much you could drop the minimum wage here to, I mean €5 wouldbe ridiculous! Id say drop it maybe up to a euro! and reduce all other social welfare payments by 10 - 15% atleast!0
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It seems logical to most, why should we prove it, should it not be disproved by you??
Er, no. If you assert a connection, you prove it. For example, you've now asserted that "it seems logical to most" - am I supposed to simply accept that, too?
How about I assert the following - the minimum wage has a positive effect on employment, is a necessary barrier to poverty, and helps cure cancer - and everyone in policy-making, and every economist who matters agrees with me. Are you really just going to accept those assertions? Do you have to disprove that the minimum wage cures cancer?
After all, it "seems logical" to "most people" that torture works, and that the death penalty is a good crime deterrent, when all available studies say the opposite. "Seems logical" is usually just another way of saying that something fits with your existing prejudices.
amused,
Scofflaw0 -
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Er, no. If you assert a connection, you prove it. For example, you've now asserted that "it seems logical to most" - am I supposed to simply accept that, too?
How about I assert the following - the minimum wage has a positive effect on employment, is a necessary barrier to poverty, and helps cure cancer - and everyone in policy-making, and every economist who matters agrees with me. Are you really just going to accept those assertions? Do you have to disprove that the minimum wage cures cancer?
After all, it "seems logical" to "most people" that torture works, and that the death penalty is a good crime deterrent, when all available studies say the opposite. "Seems logical" is usually just another way of saying that something fits with your existing prejudices.
amused,
Scofflaw
Fair enough but I what i'm saying is that although those in favour of reducing/abolition of the minimum wage haven't produced any hard facts, I haven't seen any hard facts from the keep it brigade either (unless i have missed some posts??)0
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