Union Officials - Pay Cuts?

To The North

ixoy wrote: »

1) Unions would fiercely resist. They couldn't be seen to only be there for some of their members because otherwise people (even if they're crap at their job) wouldn't join.

2) It'd be expensive. You'd need to pay redundancy sums and if you're looking at getting rid of old dead wood this would be very expensive. You'd probably end up getting rid of the new entrants who might have been more amenable to reform.

It's a shame. I know a number of people - on a good wage - whose job, it would appear, is to read the Metro. These people are also the most vociferous about cutbacks yet I doubt there'd be any blip in the work done if their employment was terminated. I'd much prefer to fire three of these and save 120k and thus remove the need for a cut of 7% from 20 others. But alas this won't happen for the reasons above and so, to get the saving as quickly as possible, it's going to be a blanket pay cut and probably cutting into other areas as well.

ioxy i fear that you're exactly right about the unions being so resistant to the change, and it's one huge flaw in what they do. i've never understood it myself, the people who most seem to resist changes where i work are older generations who don't seem to understand the need to modernise or create efficenty & it's very frustrating to work with.

luckily where i work there no one who slacks off as much as you've seen, unfortunately we've even had to cut our service hours as we've lost quite a few staff due to the moratorium.

Kashkai

I'm a public servant and I know that there are a lot of overpaid, under worked, lazy feckers in the public service, a great many of which are in the "upper echelons" and get paid in excess of €80k (up to €125k!) a year for doing what I honestly don't know. These are the types who have taken the word "delegate" to their hearts and shovel absolutely everything (i.e. work, responsibility etc) to their minions who earn half their "superior's" wages. During discussions on this stupid strike, it was the higher paid (the €70k and upwards) who were most voriferous against the proposed cut in salary while those of us in the €30 - €50k bracket accepted that we were overpaid (at least we are in our current job).

The public service is very badly organised and inefficient also (political interference and spineless managers are the main reasons). The stupid ridiculous decentralisation programme has cost an absolute fortune, has uprooted a great many people from jobs that they were good at, had pride in, gave good value for taxpayers money and thrown them into dead end, meaningless and self serving bureaucratic jobs where their talents and more importantly, the taxpayer's money is being wasted (if you haven't already figured it out, I'm one of those people :mad:). I went from a job where I was responsible for administering a budget of €1 billion used on infrastructural projects that improved the lives of the citizens of this country, worked from 8am to at least 6pm - 7pm, had to account for how money was spent to the EU, the C & AG and the Dept of Finance but I loved that job as I saw that it meant something in the real world. Now I'm a paper shuffler doing nothing of real economic value for my salary (which I'm deeply ashamed of btw), while looking at the completely demoralised (by the meaningless work and the attitude of some managers) people in my office.

For my part, I took a year off work on unpaid leave as (a) my conscience nags me that I'm getting paid for meaningless work, (b) the "work" is pointless, depressing and wrecks my head (c) the cost of childcare was more than my salary and by staying at home minding my kids while UNPAID (i.e. no money from salary or social welfare), I was at least doing something productive with my life and I could hold my head up knowing that I wasn't just another parasite sucking on the taxpayers lifeblood.

I'm taking a day's leave on Tuesday to mind my kids as my wife has to go into hospital. Otherwise I'd report for work as normal to shuffle some more paper as this strike is the most laughable stunt I've heard of in ages. Its just so amusing that those earning 2-3 times my salary are the ones most in favour of a strike but I'd bet they won't sully themselves to stand on a picket line, no they'll leave that to the minions.

Bring on a root and branch reform of the public service and when the deadwood is eliminated, the public will see that free of these overstuffed and overpaid "managers", the taxpayer will finally get real value for money.

wantolose

Thank you ,thank you , these people do exist and its about time they got a good kick in the backside out the door, because this dossing and of course delegating is going on all the time, and it’s the people on the bottom rung of the ladder that are landed with all the work and these other clowns are wandering around looking very busy! That is just the way it is....suits, folders, bleeps...action

irish_bob

To The North wrote: »

it's a good point, but the fact that they're looking for cuts over a three year period suggests to me that this is not the emergency cut they claim it is. i think a lot of money could be saved through less severe cuts and reform in the same period.

the only reason they are spreading the cuts out over three years is to minimize electoral damage , nothing else

Lemming

To The North wrote: »

it's a good point, but the fact that they're looking for cuts over a three year period suggests to me that this is not the emergency cut they claim it is. i think a lot of money could be saved through less severe cuts and reform in the same period.

You realise that they're seeking those cuts per year over the next few years right? All this talk of savings of four billion and the like are for the current fiscal year. They have to find a further four billion next fiscal year, and the year after that, etc.

Kashkai

There are more managers in my own particular office than us worker bees. That does not make any kind of sense. To my mind, an organisation should be shaped like a pyramid with the boss on top and as you work your way down, the assistant bosses, the underlings, the worker bees etc fill out the rest of the pyramid. However in my place of "work", its more like an inverted pyramid or at best a square with so many fecking managers at the top that it is beyond ridiculous. AND Mr. and Mrs Private Sector, these guys and girls are earning a minimum of €70k a year going up to €125k and that doesn't even include the uber bosses on over €200k a year, all of which comes out of your tax euros and my tax euros for that matter. AND guess what, very very few of them actually earn that kind of salary, which is absolutely extortionet by any way you look at it. Yet instead of keeping their heads down in this strike and counting their very lucky blessings (i.e. massive salaries, secure jobs, huge lump sums on retirement, secure pension and for the most part, grossly underworked) they have the bloody gall to moan and bitch about a proposed pay cut. While us worker bees on half their wages just get on with our jobs. BTW, a straw poll of 10 of us worker bees, 100% were against a strike.

There are far too many managers in the civil service and there needs to be a serious cull to leave perhaps 1/3 - 1/2 the existing number and then they might have to actually earn their salaries instead of sauntering in at 10 - 10.30, taking a 2 hour lunch and half days to "work from home" :rolleyes:, while the minions work the 8am - 5.30pm office hours.

I could go on but despite the bad press the wider public service is getting at the moment, the general public has no idea of how much actual sh1te actually goes on in the public service by a manager class who wouldn't be allowed to manage the proverbial piss up in a brewery. They are self serving a$$ kissers who do not have the balls to stand up to their political masters when they propose ridiculous schemes like decentralisation that has destroyed morale and lost years of knowledge in the displaced workers.

Strike - what a load of bollox. The fecking unions were in thrall to Bertie and told us we were lucky with our 1% pay rise a year (while inflation was running at 5%) under the partnership agreements but now, imo, they have no moral authority to tell us that they are acting in our interests against the proposed pay cut. They would have retained some moral authority if they had stood up and shouted STOP at the reckless lending by the banks, the grossly over valued housing, the rampant inflation etc, instead of seeking to fuel the already burning out of control fire through more and more pay rises (which were miniscule for us minions but worth a lot more to the managers).

murphaph

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I'm a public servant and I know that there are a lot of overpaid, under worked, lazy feckers in the public service, a great many of which are in the "upper echelons" and get paid in excess of €80k (up to €125k!) a year for doing what I honestly don't know. These are the types who have taken the word "delegate" to their hearts and shovel absolutely everything (i.e. work, responsibility etc) to their minions who earn half their "superior's" wages. During discussions on this stupid strike, it was the higher paid (the €70k and upwards) who were most voriferous against the proposed cut in salary while those of us in the €30 - €50k bracket accepted that we were overpaid (at least we are in our current job).

The public service is very badly organised and inefficient also (political interference and spineless managers are the main reasons). The stupid ridiculous decentralisation programme has cost an absolute fortune, has uprooted a great many people from jobs that they were good at, had pride in, gave good value for taxpayers money and thrown them into dead end, meaningless and self serving bureaucratic jobs where their talents and more importantly, the taxpayer's money is being wasted (if you haven't already figured it out, I'm one of those people :mad:). I went from a job where I was responsible for administering a budget of €1 billion used on infrastructural projects that improved the lives of the citizens of this country, worked from 8am to at least 6pm - 7pm, had to account for how money was spent to the EU, the C & AG and the Dept of Finance but I loved that job as I saw that it meant something in the real world. Now I'm a paper shuffler doing nothing of real economic value for my salary (which I'm deeply ashamed of btw), while looking at the completely demoralised (by the meaningless work and the attitude of some managers) people in my office.

For my part, I took a year off work on unpaid leave as (a) my conscience nags me that I'm getting paid for meaningless work, (b) the "work" is pointless, depressing and wrecks my head (c) the cost of childcare was more than my salary and by staying at home minding my kids while UNPAID (i.e. no money from salary or social welfare), I was at least doing something productive with my life and I could hold my head up knowing that I wasn't just another parasite sucking on the taxpayers lifeblood.

I'm taking a day's leave on Tuesday to mind my kids as my wife has to go into hospital. Otherwise I'd report for work as normal to shuffle some more paper as this strike is the most laughable stunt I've heard of in ages. Its just so amusing that those earning 2-3 times my salary are the ones most in favour of a strike but I'd bet they won't sully themselves to stand on a picket line, no they'll leave that to the minions.

Bring on a root and branch reform of the public service and when the deadwood is eliminated, the public will see that free of these overstuffed and overpaid "managers", the taxpayer will finally get real value for money.

Dave, can I just say, that's the best post I've read on Boards in a long time ever.

Do you believe there are many people with your attitude in the PS though, or are you a diamond in the rough?

Riskymove

Dave's views are common in the public service

I have mentioned many times that reform is what is required especially for how staff are managed, issues tackled etc

the problem with that and the current situation is that any pay cut is likely to be applied across the board which will not tackle any of these issues that Dave mentions whatsoever

Dr Galen

Views like Daves are very common in the Public and Civil service. Unfortunately, the old school hardcore union people make the most noise and thus their voice doesn't get heard.

Kashkai

The sad thing is that the real workers in the public service do not get into the top positions as they are too busy doing their jobs while the sycophants are busy kissing ar$es of their "superiors" and the politicians.

Jeez, I used to have this guy working for me who was a clerical officer and a very lazy good for nothing one at that (came in late, took a dozen ciggie breaks and went home early). He was however, well able to speak volumes about himself when it came to "bumping" into the senior management to get noticed, running errands for the minister and especially at interviews and he has now worked his way up the ladder in the civil service and he is at the rank of an Assistant Principal on a salary in excess of €72k a year. Not bad for a guy who spent more time away from his desk than at it and when he was at his desk, he was on the phone to his mates. He was nearly done for bullying as well but he talked his way out of it. As his manager, I never gave him a good annual rating for his performance and conduct, and twice I refused to sanction his annual increment due to his workshy and lazy manner but the civil service just kept on promoting him and now he's quite senior.

In a system like this, is it no wonder that the good ones soon get so completely fed up and demoralised. TBH I'd leave tomorrow if I could get another job but despite trying for the past 6 months, I've found that there is nothing out there above the minimum wage and my wife, 5 kids and mortgage dictate that I either stay put in my dead end, worthless, paper shuffling job or else I quit and have my family on the street. In this situation, I just have to shut up and keep on taking money from the taxpayers that I frankly admit I have not earned.

kwinabeeste

dvpower wrote: »

That's the thing in the private sector; your salary can dramatically rise in the good times and dramatically fall (sometimes to zero) in the bad times.

In the public service this doesn't tend to happen; its a steady upward trajectory except in exceptional circumstances, like now, where a modest correction may be made.

Modest increase??? i started as an AO in Sept 2002 on €23.5K. I was straight out of college and it was my 1st job. I left in Spring 2006 as i decided it wasn't rewarding enough for me mentally (thats another days discussion) and was on €48K, when i left. I ended up on point 4 on the scale, through rises and benchmarking as well. I also got a lot of travel and subsistence allowances (about €2k a year). So my salary doubled in about 3.5 years. How can you say that is a steady trend? Since benchmarking a lot of civil servants have got sizeable increases combined with the partnership.

In the private sector, I took a 25% decrease to get a job that suited me more. I took me 2 years to get back up to my level in the PS and that involved 2 promotions - not just given every year as in the PS (up to a point granted - but if you don't progress you stagnate). I am far happier and 2 more promotions later I am on par with an AP scale, because of my ability/not longevity or my grasp of the Irish language (which adds 10% to score in promotion interviews (again another days discussion)

Many of the people that I worked with did nothing! that is the civil service.I think cops/nurses/docs/fire brigade/army should be differentiated that the admin grades. (edited for should be)

Has anyone ever gone to passport office in Molesworth St? the desk there at front door would have a civil servant to direct people into the office. They spend the day doin crosswords (fact - I was there 6 months ago) This is the waste that needs to be removed. A agency guard/receptionist etc would be a far more economic solution.

Rant over - but dont get me started on christmas shopping, shorter working week and privelege days!!!

irish_bob

kwinabeeste wrote: »

Modest increase??? i started as an AO in Sept 2002 on €23.5K. I was straight out of college and it was my 1st job. I left in Spring 2006 as i decided it wasn't rewarding enough for me mentally (thats another days discussion) and was on €48K, when i left. I ended up on point 4 on the scale, through rises and benchmarking as well. I also got a lot of travel and subsistence allowances (about €2k a year). So my salary doubled in about 3.5 years. How can you say that is a steady trend? Since benchmarking a lot of civil servants have got sizeable increases combined with the partnership.

In the private sector, I took a 25% decrease to get a job that suited me more. I took me 2 years to get back up to my level in the PS and that involved 2 promotions - not just given every year as in the PS (up to a point granted - but if you don't progress you stagnate). I am far happier and 2 more promotions later I am on par with an AP scale, because of my ability/not longevity or my grasp of the Irish language (which adds 10% to score in promotion interviews (again another days discussion)

Many of the people that I worked with did nothing! that is the civil service.I think cops/nurses/docs/fire brigade/army should be differentiated that the admin grades. (edited for should be)

Has anyone ever gone to passport office in Molesworth St? the desk there at front door would have a civil servant to direct people into the office. They spend the day doin crosswords (fact - I was there 6 months ago) This is the waste that needs to be removed. A agency guard/receptionist etc would be a far more economic solution.

Rant over - but dont get me started on christmas shopping, shorter working week and privelege days!!!

and yet we are told that we are being brainwashed by the media into believing theese stories