My outrage at some members of the Private Sector..

Liam79

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

warrenaldo

MaceFace wrote: »

Not trying to be bad here, but if a typical library assistant went into the private sector, what job would they be doing, and what would be the typical pay there?

You could ask similar questions about Garda and Firemen, what job would they do? what would the typical pay be?

Just because they would not get a similar role in the private sector does not mean they should automatically take the salary of what they would earn in the private sector.

Although I fully agree that many public sector employees are overpaid and should/will take a paycut, i find it difficult to understand why people expect them to bend over and take it. You wouldnt!

hobochris

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

In fairness in the real world some degrees are valued more then others.

a business or science/engineering degree would be valued more then a art or philosophy degree.

Zulu

You keep banging on about a degree, like it entitles one to something. It doesn't.

All a degree does is prove you’ve bothered to study a subject more; all a degree does is make you more employable. Having a degree does not entitle you to a higher wage. You may get a higher starting salary, but you are not entitled to one.

…at least that’s the way the big bad world works. Now I may be wrong, perhaps the public sector is different?

Riskymove

Zulu wrote: »

…at least that’s the way the big bad world works. Now I may be wrong, perhaps the public sector is different?

you are overlooking the fact that some jobs require a certain qualification and therefore the wage usually reflects that (barriers to entry and competition etc)

In order to be a Librarian you require certain qualifications

murphaph

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

Pretty much yeah. There are hard degrees and easy degrees. Everyone knows that Liam.

If being a library assistant is easy enough then the pay should be low. Is a degree really needed for it or just specified as a prerequisite? Could I learn the job in say, 6 months with on the job training? If so then the degree is irrelevant to the post.

Zulu

Riskymove wrote: »

you are overlooking the fact...

Not at all. I'm just pointing out that a degree doesn't entitle you to more money or a job for that matter.

MaceFace

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

Hey, I am only asking - no need to bite my head off. I only asked what qualifications someone needs to do that job and what else they could do with that qualification.

Are you saying that the only jobs someone with a library degree can get is in the public sector working in a library?
Unfortunately, this is what I talked about in other threads - pay and conditions whether in public or private sector should be based on one rule - supply and demand.
It does seem like library assistants are in a poor position as they have no realistic alternatives.

seamus

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

Liam, someone with a library degree is effectively a qualified researcher and those who are good at it can earn decent money in the private sector perform research.
Such a person may need to do additional training depending on the industry they're in (such a legal researcher), but a library degree doesn't only qualify you to work in the public sector as a librarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_and_information_science#Employment_outlook_and_opportunities

Tipp Man

Riskymove wrote: »

you are overlooking the fact that some jobs require a certain qualification and therefore the wage usually reflects that (barriers to entry and competition etc)

In order to be a Librarian you require certain qualifications

Now this raises a really valid point, do we need all these qualifications in the PS? Why does everyone need to have degrees etc etc, there are plenty of jobs as far as i can see that on the job training would be more than sufficient. Do we really need someone to spend 5 years at Uni to work in a library in Limerick?? Seriously??

Half the degrees in this country should be abolished i reckon, by doing stupid degrees we have too many people who think they are geniuses and with salary expectations to match. and its a double whammy as we have to provide the costs for the stupid degree in the first place

parsi

Tipp Man wrote: »

Half the degrees in this country should be abolished i reckon, by doing stupid degrees we have too many people who think they are geniuses and with salary expectations to match. and its a double whammy as we have to provide the costs for the stupid degree in the first place

Not a bad point really.

The current emphasis on funnelling folk off to degree level courses means that there is a serious dose of over-qualification in the workforce.

"Oh, look at me, I've a degree gained after 4 years of doing nothing, so I must get a job at 47K."

If everyone has degrees who is going to man the shops, the bins, the takeways, the building etc ?

murphaph

parsi wrote: »

Not a bad point really.

The current emphasis on funnelling folk off to degree level courses means that there is a serious dose of over-qualification in the workforce.

"Oh, look at me, I've a degree gained after 4 years of doing nothing, so I must get a job at 47K."

If everyone has degrees who is going to man the shops, the bins, the takeways, the building etc ?

Don't worry, we'll just keep buying and selling property off one another at hugely inflated prices and get poles to do all those messy jobs, oh wait...

Zulu

em, well, personally, I'd much rather we had a highly educated work force.

I think encouraging the populous to further educate themselves to third level is one of the things we should be applauded for.

Riskymove

Tipp Man wrote: »

Now this raises a really valid point, do we need all these qualifications in the PS?

Not everyone needs a qualification

if you have a generalised view that a librarian is just a shelf-stacker then obviously that would be a questionable requirement, but the truth is far from that as set out above by

Liam, someone with a library degree is effectively a qualified researcher and those who are good at it can earn decent money in the private sector perform research

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Don't worry, we'll just keep buying and selling property off one another at hugely inflated prices and get poles to do all those messy jobs, oh wait...

Unfortunatley Murph thats the way it is, too many people with too many big ideas of themselves giving an over inflated sense of self rightousness and self importance and over inflated salaries to match

Tipp Man

Riskymove wrote: »

Not everyone needs a qualification

if you have a generalised view that a librarian is just a shelf-stacker then obviously that would be a questionable requirement, but the truth is far from that as set out above by

I'm not just talking about librarians but in this case is there anything that this women (an assistant librarian) does that i or any Tom Dick or Harry could not do after 6 months on the job training?? Do you really need 5 years at Uni for it?? What about librarians 20 years ago, did they all have degrees?

Now if this woman was a brain surgen then obviously that answers itself

Jaysoose

Imagine the wailing when the IMF has to come in and clean up this mess next year....PS dont know how good they have it at the minute and the Beardy union gimps wont be able to save them when the reins are handed over and the cuts WILL be made regardless of what anybody thinks or says.

I say let them keep their pay cos it wont be for much longer.

Liam79

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not just talking about librarians but in this case is there anything that this women (an assistant librarian) does that i or any Tom Dick or Harry could not do after 6 months on the job training?? Do you really need 5 years at Uni for it?? What about librarians 20 years ago, did they all have degrees?

Now if this woman was a brain surgen then obviously that answers itself

Your actually proving my point of general ignorance of the public towards what some people in the PS actually do.
You genuinely believe all librarians do is stack shelves, give out and take back books dont you. I mean the sheer ignorance for want of a better word is laughable.
And sure all farmers do is look after a few cows and feed the hens....and all radio dj's do is work 2 hours a day, and all bank tellers do is give out money at the counter etc etc etc.....

Open your eyes!!:eek:

The Muppet

Berkut wrote: »

Honestly Liam...we don't give a flying fúck what the public sector think..
.

You're dead right there, and it's got to the stage that the Public sector feel the same about the private sector.

Thing is you'll moan next tuesday when your cheap childminders are on strike., or later on as services deteriorate as things escalates which they will.

Don't attempt to play the public sympathy card dowm the road. The Public sector know there is very little and have decided it's time to look after themselves. After all why should they give a flying fúck what the private sector think?

To The North

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not just talking about librarians but in this case is there anything that this women (an assistant librarian) does that i or any Tom Dick or Harry could not do after 6 months on the job training?? Do you really need 5 years at Uni for it?? What about librarians 20 years ago, did they all have degrees?

Now if this woman was a brain surgen then obviously that answers itself

to be a library assistant you don't normally need a degree, although i think different institutions may ask for you to have one.

so yes anyone can do that job with training and it's the lowest of the wage grades (in my workplace anyway). as a library assistant in the public sector i'm on the same money that i was in the private sector as a retail assistant. my previous emplyer had agreed to negotiate my wage with me every year and give me a raise, so i don't know if this is comparable with other retail assistants.

however, to move up the pay grades and get a better job or to be a librarian you need to do a masters in librarian and information work. like someone mentioned above this means you are a qualified researcher and can work far more fields than just the public service, but some choose to work here because they enjoy their jobs.

i can guarantee you that working in a library involves far more than stamping books now and again and shelving. libraries are an important resource tool for students and facilitate in educating the people who are the future of this country.

Tipp Man

Liam79 wrote: »

Your actually proving my point of general ignorance of the public towards what some people in the PS actually do.
You genuinely believe all librarians do is stack shelves, give out and take back books dont you. I mean the sheer ignorance for want of a better word is laughable.
And sure all farmers do is look after a few cows and feed the hens....and all radio dj's do is work 2 hours a day, and all bank tellers do is give out money at the counter etc etc etc.....

Open your eyes!!:eek:

Why don't you enlighten us as to what an assistant librarian needs to spend 5 years at Uni for?? Please tell us

Do you think she'd have been as well off getting 5 years on the job training rather than uni??

Taxipete29

Tipp Man wrote: »

Now this raises a really valid point, do we need all these qualifications in the PS? Why does everyone need to have degrees etc etc, there are plenty of jobs as far as i can see that on the job training would be more than sufficient. Do we really need someone to spend 5 years at Uni to work in a library in Limerick?? Seriously??

Half the degrees in this country should be abolished i reckon, by doing stupid degrees we have too many people who think they are geniuses and with salary expectations to match. and its a double whammy as we have to provide the costs for the stupid degree in the first place

I dont know which is more ridiculous, this post or the fact that people are thanking it. While I agree that there is probably not the need for degrees in some areas of the PS, but are you really suggesting that we reduce the number of degree courses available??

It is possible we have too many courses in the wrong areas of study. The system needs to push people into areas of study that will be of benefit to the economy in the long term. However to suggest that too many people are getting degrees is lunacy. People still have to study for them, pass exams etc. I dont know of any stupid degrees. Some may be questionable as to the value they provide in the real world, but they still require a high level of commitment.

I despair for this country with attitudes like yours Tippman

seamus

The Muppet wrote: »

Don't attempt to play the public sympathy card dowm the road. The Public sector know there is very little and have decided it's time to look after themselves. After all why should they give a flying fúck what the private sector think?

Because despite what the public sector thinks, the private sector is a number of times bigger and is therefore indirectly in charge of the public sector's bosses.

It's all about politics. If the private sector are seen to support the public sector's plight, then politicians are more malleable because they will give into the public sector in order to hold or win votes.

If the public sector doesn't have the support of the private sector, then politicians are more inclined to fight because giving into the public sector will lose votes.

Why do people strike at all? The only point in having a strike is to inconvenience the general public who will in turn put pressure on their elected representatives to do something about it.

The public sector are onto a loser here. The government have already produced the figures and convinced Joe Soap that making cuts in the public sector is the best way to improve our situation. The public sector has failed to counter this with any meaningful debate or alternatives (except to tax us all to protect their own pay) and instead is opting to further irritate people who are already nowhere near being on their side.

You will find that we're at the point that people will put up with the public sector striking for an entire month if that's what it takes;
We can figure out ways of transporting ourselves around the country, we already have to look after our kids over the summer months, and our health service is already a shambles.

The public sector has for the last ten years, had an image of being spoiled, bloated, arrogant little brats who demand non-existent rights. We've ignored it because we could afford it. Now we can't and the public sector, rather than try to combat their image, have only solidified it further.

If I was you, I'd tell your wife to take a stand and break the picket. Encourage her colleagues to do the same - take matters into her own hands to try and show the public that the public sector isn't full of workshy halfwits.

P. Breathnach

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not just talking about librarians but in this case is there anything that this women (an assistant librarian) does that i or any Tom Dick or Harry could not do after 6 months on the job training?? Do you really need 5 years at Uni for it?? What about librarians 20 years ago, did they all have degrees?

Now if this woman was a brain surgen then obviously that answers itself

If you don't really know what a librarian or assistant librarian (as distinct from a library assistant) actually does, you should be careful about making a judgement. The normal entry requirement is a very good primary degree and a demanding post-graduate qualification, and that was also the situation 20 years ago. Possibly the only shelf-stacking a librarian does is done as good manners: librarians have other functions, generally connected with devising and running systems for making information available, and a good librarian is an invaluable collaborator for a researcher.

Pay for librarians in the private sector is high, because they are perceived as highly-skilled people.

jimmmy

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Some may be questionable as to the value they provide in the real world, but they still require a high level of commitment.

Big deal, who pays for and subsidises much of these degrees" in the wrong areas of study" of you say, which are of little or no use to the economy.
Students should have to pay a higher percentage cost of the courses ; look at how much they cost the taxpayer.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I despair for this country with attitudes like yours Tippman

And you think nobody despairs for the future of the country that has a public service who thinks the world owes them a huge standard of living ?

P. Breathnach

seamus wrote: »

... The public sector are onto a loser here...

I think that's true. Pay cuts are going to happen.

It would be nice if public service employees were not also vilified.

To The North

jimmmy wrote: »

And you think nobody despairs for the future of the country that has a public service who thinks the world owes them a huge standard of living ?

sometimes i really wish i had that huge mythical standard of living we all in the public service are supposed to have :rolleyes:

Tipp Man

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I dont know which is more ridiculous, this post or the fact that people are thanking it. While I agree that there is probably not the need for degrees in some areas of the PS, but are you really suggesting that we reduce the number of degree courses available??

It is possible we have too many courses in the wrong areas of study. The system needs to push people into areas of study that will be of benefit to the economy in the long term. However to suggest that too many people are getting degrees is lunacy. People still have to study for them, pass exams etc. I dont know of any stupid degrees. Some may be questionable as to the value they provide in the real world, but they still require a high level of commitment.

I despair for this country with attitudes like yours Tippman

Well in effect you are agreeing with me, what i mean by stupid degrees you call "the wrong areas of study".

Don't get me wrong i am all for people going to university to study, BUT the degrees on offer have to be relevant to the real world and the number of places has to be relevant to the number of potential jobs.

So how many thousands and thousands of Arts students have we in this country?? do we need that many studying Arts?? Wouldn't we be better trying to promote, Science, Finance, IT, whatever.

How many people outside of education use English degrees on a daily basis?? Now if you want to study English to degree level out of interest, thats fair enough, no problem with that, just you should pay for it

And its not just Arts, take an accounting degree for example, on finishing uni doing accounting you are still not a qualified accountant, you get exempt from half the professional qualifiications but your still not qualified, wouldn't it be better for students to do the professional qualifiications rather than go to Uni?? You can do the professional exams in less time than the degree which means your earning more faster.

The whole idea of education in this country is wrong in my opinion

Taxipete29

jimmmy wrote: »

Big deal, who pays for and subsidises much of these degrees" in the wrong areas of study" of you say, which are of little or no use to the economy.
Students should have to pay a higher percentage cost of the courses ; look at how much they cost the taxpayer.


And you think nobody despairs for the future of the country that has a public service who thinks the world owes them a huge standard of living ?

I dont think the PS are owed anything that includes a high standard of living. I think that those PS workers who earn too much should have their pay cut. The idea that the entire PS earns too much is a fallacy and is based on ridiculous comparisons with other countries that have lower cost bases.

The fact is the PS wage bill has to be cut. The question is what form does that take. Remember there are more elements to it than core pay. Allowances, overtime etc. The Govt seem to be taking the easy option with across the board cuts on core pay. This doesnt solve anything as regards the ridiculous allowances that some members of the PS are entitled to. If you remove the allowances you also remove one of the biggest elements of inefficecy that exists within the sector. Couple this with more flexibility which allows for the transfering of admin staff between depts. Change the grading system and get rid of automatic increments. These would make for real change.

P. Breathnach

Tipp Man wrote: »

... The whole idea of education in this country is wrong in my opinion

All of it?