My outrage at some members of the Private Sector..

Sleipnir

To The North wrote: »

sometimes i really wish i had that huge mythical standard of living we all in the public service are supposed to have :rolleyes:

Nobody is saying that you have a high standard of living. The point is, while the standard of living is dropping for many, many private sector employees, the public sector employee thinks they're own should be maintained, no matter what the cost.
You have a guarantee that your standard of living will never drop as low as it can for a worker in the private sector, i.e. you'll never lose your job.

Taxipete29

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well in effect you are agreeing with me, what i mean by stupid degrees you call "the wrong areas of study".

Don't get me wrong i am all for people going to university to study, BUT the degrees on offer have to be relevant to the real world and the number of places has to be relevant to the number of potential jobs.

So how many thousands and thousands of Arts students have we in this country?? do we need that many studying Arts?? Wouldn't we be better trying to promote, Science, Finance, IT, whatever.

How many people outside of education use English degrees on a daily basis?? Now if you want to study English to degree level out of interest, thats fair enough, no problem with that, just you should pay for it

And its not just Arts, take an accounting degree for example, on finishing uni doing accounting you are still not a qualified accountant, you get exempt from half the professional qualifiications but your still not qualified, wouldn't it be better for students to do the professional qualifiications rather than go to Uni?? You can do the professional exams in less time than the degree which means your earning more faster.

The whole idea of education in this country is wrong in my opinion

To do the professional exams for accounting you have to be working in a firm. Doing a degree shows your perspective employer you have the commitment level required to parachute in at that level and complete the pro course succesfully. I have heard of a few people who didnt go to college and did the pro course but their employer only sent them on it after several years of doing office donkey work. Point being your degree shows you have potential, Leaving cert doesnt.

I agree about education in this country. Needs a mjor overhaul. FWIW I am not against fees for courses that may have little relevance to the real world economy.

Tipp Man

P. Breathnach wrote: »

All of it?

no not all of it, i just feel that

a) there are far too many pointless (for want of a better word) degree courses on offer

b) we have far too many students doing the wrong courses, eg Arts.

c) a lot of the degrees are not providing the real world with what it actually wants, see my accounting students example above.

Also from my experience it generally doesn't matter what degree a person has done, they learn a lot more from 6 months actually working than 4 years in UNI

Tipp Man

Taxipete29 wrote: »

To do the professional exams for accounting you have to be working in a firm. Doing a degree shows your perspective employer you have the commitment level required to parachute in at that level and complete the pro course succesfully. I have heard of a few people who didnt go to college and did the pro course but their employer only sent them on it after several years of doing office donkey work. Point being your degree shows you have potential, Leaving cert doesnt.

Well firstly there are many different professional bodies, to be ACA qualifed you need a training contract from a firm, however the CPA, ACCA, CIMA are all industry focused and you do not need to be in an accounting firm, probably the majority aren't, to do them.

The accountants i know (and i know a lot) all got on better and faster in their careers by skipping Uni and doing the prof exams (my boss on a very large salary being a prime example)

seangal

ye can bash the public sector as much as yea want but we are in a mess because of the private sector greed greed and there price fixing which lead to 5% inflation which lead to high wage claims
Here is an example
Banker
Estate agents
Solicitors
Accountants
Builders
ALL worked together to create the housing bubble
Publicans
Restaurant’s
Retailers
All inflated there prices to get more profit
like where in the world would you pay €7.50 for a bottle of miller but u pay it in a pub in Ireland and they u see on the label " Not of individual SALE" which mean it came form a super market or even worse the north of Ireland. A steak cost € 26 euro in a Restaurant
Private sector GREED cause all this full stop and shame on yea all
Yes public sector got BENCHMARKING which for most worked out at 1% a year over 7 years but the big wage rise came from wage agreement matching inflation caused buy private sector and if i recall we all took the tax cuts when they were given

dvpower

The Muppet wrote: »

Thing is you'll moan next tuesday when your cheap childminders are on strike., or later on as services deteriorate as things escalates which they will.

Those childminders ain't cheap.

Tom1974

The whole debate can be summed up as typical Irish begrudgery. While during the boom years where private sector trade men could make tax free nixers, bonuses paid to many staff, share options for employees in particular private sector firms, vhi paid for etc etc, there was no-one complaining about the rates of public sector pay..... but as soon as the tide changes the green eyed monster appears!!! Pathetic nation:mad:

I've worked in both private and public, and believe me there are plenty of dossers in both sectors!

Tipp Man

Tom1974 wrote: »

The whole debate can be summed up as typical Irish begrudgery. While during the boom years where private sector trade men could make tax free nixers, bonuses paid to many staff, share options for employees in particular private sector firms, vhi paid for etc etc, there was no-one complaining about the rates of public sector pay..... but as soon as the tide changes the green eyed monster appears!!! Pathetic nation:mad:

I've worked in both private and public, and believe me there are plenty of dossers in both sectors!

There were plenty complaining but a) they didn't have a unified voice and b) they were shouted down by the unions trying to protect their "poor" workers who nobody loves

dvpower

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It would be nice if public service employees were not also vilified.

I agree with this. Most of our public servants work hard and deserve the pay that they get (although an adjustment is inevitable).

There's a problem with public service management for allowing a bloated middle management to grow, massive waste of public funds on ott expenses and ill conceived and badly managed IT systems and all of the other sillyness that is synomous in the public's mind with the public service.

But going on strike is the last thing we (or they) need. It has no chance of suceeding in halting cuts in PS funding and will only alienate the public. It looks more like a desperate gesture from the unions rather than part of some strategy.

To The North

Sleipnir wrote: »

Nobody is saying that you have a high standard of living. The point is, while the standard of living is dropping for many, many private sector employees, the public sector employee thinks they're own should be maintained, no matter what the cost.
You have a guarantee that your standard of living will never drop as low as it can for a worker in the private sector, i.e. you'll never lose your job.

actually that poster i quoted was saying we had a high standard of living.

my standard of living has dropped, it was never very high in the first place, i'm in the lower echelons of the pay grades & then they made cuts at the beginning of the year.

my stomach tightens into knots with each mention of another pay cut, i am very worried about it.

several of my colleagues have lots their jobs & not only are they suffering, but the students in the college are also suffering because of the lack of staff across all departments & have expressed their worries to us, but unfortunately we don't have the resources to help them.

while i'm lucky enough to have a permanent contract this doesn't necessarily mean i'm safe. if the government decide to make job cuts, which they have refused to confirm or deny they will do, my job may be at risk. and that's a scary thought for me, as it is for anyone.

being demonised for being a (lazy, overpaid & greedy apparently) PS worker is just the icing on the cake.

P. Breathnach

Tipp Man wrote: »

no not all of it, i just feel that

a) there are far too many pointless (for want of a better word) degree courses on offer

b) we have far too many students doing the wrong courses, eg Arts.

c) a lot of the degrees are not providing the real world with what it actually wants, see my accounting students example above.

Also from my experience it generally doesn't matter what degree a person has done, they learn a lot more from 6 months actually working than 4 years in UNI

This could be a big debate, and perhaps merits a separate thread if people want to pursue it. What you are suggesting is a third-level system that is technocratic, and just about nothing else.

In my view, that would be personally and socially impoverishing, and might also have a worse impact on economic life than you seem to imagine.

[You are throwing out a hostage to fortune in suggesting that an arts degree is pointless, but I won't go there.]

Tipp Man

P. Breathnach wrote: »

This could be a big debate, and perhaps merits a separate thread if people want to pursue it. What you are suggesting is a third-level system that is technocratic, and just about nothing else.

In my view, that would be personally and socially impoverishing, and might also have a worse impact on economic life than you seem to imagine.

[You are throwing out a hostage to fortune in suggesting that an arts degree is pointless, but I won't go there.]

your right different thread needed

Just want to clarify that i don't think Arts are pointless, what i mean is that thousands studying it year after year as a career choice is pointless

murphaph

The Muppet wrote: »

Don't attempt to play the public sympathy card dowm the road. The Public sector know there is very little and have decided it's time to look after themselves. After all why should they give a flying fúck what the private sector think?

It's a battle you can't win so long as the government, with the backing of the majority of the electorate, hold firm.

If you resist paycuts the other quick option is mass redundancies-much more painful for the country and those made redundant but of course, the lucky ones who survive won't care.

Far more sensible is for everyone in the PS to accept that the country's broke and take the cut.

murphaph

seangal wrote: »

ye can bash the public sector as much as yea want but we are in a mess because of the private sector greed greed and there price fixing which lead to 5% inflation which lead to high wage claims
Here is an example
Banker
Estate agents
Solicitors
Accountants
Builders
ALL worked together to create the housing bubble
Publicans
Restaurant’s
Retailers
All inflated there prices to get more profit
like where in the world would you pay €7.50 for a bottle of miller but u pay it in a pub in Ireland and they u see on the label " Not of individual SALE" which mean it came form a super market or even worse the north of Ireland. A steak cost € 26 euro in a Restaurant
Private sector GREED cause all this full stop and shame on yea all
Yes public sector got BENCHMARKING which for most worked out at 1% a year over 7 years but the big wage rise came from wage agreement matching inflation caused buy private sector and if i recall we all took the tax cuts when they were given

Wages rose by more than 5% a year though in many instances and anyway, we're now experiencing deflation of 6.5% so a pay cut is in order, no?

Taxipete29

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well firstly there are many different professional bodies, to be ACA qualifed you need a training contract from a firm, however the CPA, ACCA, CIMA are all industry focused and you do not need to be in an accounting firm, probably the majority aren't, to do them.

The accountants i know (and i know a lot) all got on better and faster in their careers by skipping Uni and doing the prof exams (my boss on a very large salary being a prime example)

Ok thats fair enough, point taken. However, as the jobs market gets even more competitive would it not be fair to say that 2 candidates who present for job, one has Uni, worked with a firm and gets prof qualifacation and one who has no Uni and has only got the prof exams , whose more likely to get the job all else being equal.

I dont doubt in the past people have done well with no University behind them. I got into field sales in the retail sector and did very well with very little Uni only previous retail experience. Now nearly all the bigger firms recruiting sales people are looking for diplomas or higher.My point is that not going to Uni in the current environment is limiting.

The Celtic Tiger presented many people with oppurtunities to get their foot in the door of companies without college because of the lack of availability of people. If a degree wasnt essential, you could be given a chance and many were and did very well. Now its so hard to get in the door with a degree and experience behind you that people with no degree or experience have not got a chance.

ardmacha

Wages rose by more than 5% a year though in many instances and anyway, we're now experiencing deflation of 6.5% so a pay cut is in order, no?

A deflation related pay cut might be in order, but the government haven't linked the cut to deflation. Instead they have muttered about cutting one group by 10%, another by 5% etc without any principle whatsoever.

Blazer

The Muppet wrote: »

You're dead right there, and it's got to the stage that the Public sector feel the same about the private sector.

Thing is you'll moan next tuesday when your cheap childminders are on strike., or later on as services deteriorate as things escalates which they will.

Don't attempt to play the public sympathy card dowm the road. The Public sector know there is very little and have decided it's time to look after themselves. After all why should they give a flying fúck what the private sector think?

Because unlike the public sector we..the private sector fund your wages which means I can say pretty much anything I want about ye..
hm..let's start...

1. The reason Liam's bitching about is his wife's low paid job which she went to uni for.
If you don't want a low paid but well secure job with a guaranteed pension then sod off to the private sector and get a job with better pay...
Stop coming on here bitching about it because everyone outside of the public sector all think you're overpaid and crap value for money.
In fact apart from guards/medical staff is there anyone in the public sector providing value for money?
The country's ****ed...the private sector has got hit...and now it's your time.

P. Breathnach

Berkut wrote: »

... Stop coming on here bitching about it because everyone outside of the public sector all think you're overpaid and crap value for money...

Yeah, right.

Thank you for this reasoned and balanced contribution to discussion.

Scofflaw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think that's true. Pay cuts are going to happen.

It would be nice if public service employees were not also vilified.

I fear that's become a function of the style of the debate, and without meaning any offence, that's largely the fault of the public sector's tactics. I agree entirely with seamus' post, none of which requires any vilification of PS workers - the problem, it seems to me, is that the public sector unions and other spokespeople (and that includes posters here) have tried to make the debate about whether the public sector deserves pay cuts.

Since what we're talking about what is fundamentally inelastic situation where there's no real choice but for everyone to take cuts, making it about who deserves what was always going to turn nasty.

Unfortunately, the situation is rather similar to two children being told there isn't enough pie for both of them to have as much as they'd like. If one sibling says that they don't deserve not to get as much pie as they'd like, and throws a tantrum, and the other feels that the parent may back down in the face of that, then they're going to get nasty.

Oddly enough, the public sector would be getting less vilification if the government were perceived as stronger.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Muppet

dvpower wrote: »

Those childminders ain't cheap.

They are cheaper tahn teh alternative.

murphaph wrote: »

It's a battle you can't win so long as the government, with the backing of the majority of the electorate, hold firm.

It's been a long time since this Gov had the backing of the majority of the population for anything. Ps workers and their families have votes too you know.

hobochris

The Muppet wrote: »

It's been a long time since this Gov had the backing of the majority of the population for anything. Ps workers and their families have votes too you know.

And they can vote what ever the hell they want, it still does not change the fact that the public sector wage bill is still to high, so cuts need to be made in a fair manor otherwise we might as well change the country name to Iceland 2.

Liam79

Berkut wrote: »

Because unlike the public sector we..the private sector fund your wages which means I can say pretty much anything I want about ye..
hm..let's start...

1. The reason Liam's bitching about is his wife's low paid job which she went to uni for.
If you don't want a low paid but well secure job with a guaranteed pension then sod off to the private sector and get a job with better pay...
Stop coming on here bitching about it because everyone outside of the public sector all think you're overpaid and crap value for money.
In fact apart from guards/medical staff is there anyone in the public sector providing value for money?
The country's ****ed...the private sector has got hit...and now it's your time.

Case.
Point.
Proven.

Cheers mate.

zoemax

Also from my experience it generally doesn't matter what degree a person has done, they learn a lot more from 6 months actually working than 4 years in UNI

Aahhh yes, the good old university of life. I hope my GP went to this uni and note a formal medical school, sure what would he learn there? Same for the civil engineers who designed the bridges I drive over every day into my well paid public sector job.

It's all coming down to typical Irish begrudgery - I've lost my job so everyone should suffer. Whinge whinge moan moan.

As a well paid public sector worker I have been in favour of redundancies in that sector and still am. Whilst not in favour of a personal pay cut (who is?) I'd accepted that this was required in the short term at least until numbers could be cut (I've already taken a 8% cut and along with the new levies my take home pay is down by 20%).

Now I'm beginning to piss*d off with all of the private sector whinging and bleating. Almost everyone had the oppurtunity to enter the public service but you didn't. Tough sh*t. In the last few years I've seen applications for jobs in my area of the public sector rise from 3 or 4 people for a €30k job to over 500 for the last one I was involved in.

I entered the public sector in 2000, and left again in 2002 for the private sector. I made much more money here than I had in the public sector and I then set up my own business. In 2006 I re-entered the public service and I'm still here. I made the decision to come back into the public sector based on the way the economy seemed to be going - my work was starting to dry up. Now, to get back in I still had to do the same interviews as everyone else, ones that were open to people in the private sector. Instead of applying for these 'plum' jobs where you do no work and get well paid :rolleyes:my contacts in the private sector laughed and asked why I didn't just get a job with another company in the private sector for a bigger salary. Now who's laughing? I have no interest in unions and I think that their strike is a waste of time and will piss off people whose kids have no school to go to. However it might remind the whingers in the private sector about all of the services that are provided by the public sector.

I had some guilt about my job security when friends where being laid off but now I'm thinking why shoud I? I'm good at my job, can get a similar salary in the private sector (I have firm job offers) and am well paid on the basis of my experience and qualifications.

I've every sympathy for those who have lost their jobs (including two of my brothers and a sister), but I'm gonna defend my position as long as I can - like you in the private sector I have a family to feed (imagine that public sector workers are human:eek:

Scofflaw

The Muppet wrote: »

They are cheaper tahn teh alternative.

It's been a long time since this Gov had the backing of the majority of the population for anything. Ps workers and their families have votes too you know.

Yes, they do, but as we've seen here, not all of the public sector support the strikes (the strike vote was about 75% of 70%, which works out as a bare majority of 53%), whereas I think you'll find that nearly everyone in the private sector opposes them, or opposes their success.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam79

hobochris wrote: »

And they can vote what ever the hell they want, it still does not change the fact that the public sector wage bill is still to high, so cuts need to be made in a fair manor otherwise we might as well change the country name to Iceland 2.

The key word being FAIR.........
I have no qualms with public sector pay cuts, but its not being done fairly
7.5% acorss the board..........so a grade 8 making 70k-100k ot a grade 3 making 22-30K both have to take the same cut relevant to their incomes....

Do you think thats fair?

The Muppet

Berkut wrote: »

Because unlike the public sector we..the private sector fund your wages which means I can say pretty much anything I want about ye..
hm..let's start...

Ye pay taxes the same as everyone , you benefit from the services which your taxes pay for like everyone else. . You can say what you like then again so can I. Lose the attitude it's over a hundred years out of date.

Scofflaw

Liam79 wrote: »

The key word being FAIR.........
I have no qualms with public sector pay cuts, but its not being done fairly
7.5% acorss the board..........so a grade 8 making 70k-100k ot a grade 3 making 22-30K both have to take the same cut relevant to their incomes....

Do you think thats fair?

If it's not fair, then it's not fair because the pay disparity between grade 3 and grade 8 is itself unfair. Will you be striking on the 24th for fair pay reductions?

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Muppet

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, they do, but as we've seen here, not all of the public sector support the strikes (the strike vote was about 75% of 70%, which works out as a bare majority of 53%), whereas I think you'll find that nearly everyone in the private sector opposes them, or opposes their success.

cordially,
Scofflaw

No need for the propaganda, nice how you assumed the 30% that didn't vote would vote against. 75% is a huge vote in favour.

Liam79

Berkut, u do realise public sector employees are PAYE workers too....dont you........:rolleyes:
And who are to speak for ALL the private sector employees?!?!
Funny cos nearly everyone I have spoken to in the private sector agrees with me that a 7.5% cut on workers at grade 3 level is far too harsh....
But hey....you speak for EVERY private sector worker....dont you

Blazer

Liam79 wrote: »

Case.
Point.
Proven.

Cheers mate.

Glad I could help