My outrage at some members of the Private Sector..

S.L.F

Stark wrote: »

Not bad for a job whose only entry requirements is a pass Leaving Cert (I checked the entry requirements for Grade 3 assistant). Anyone with any qualifcations/experience at all can get in at Grade 2 and the money is very good there.

If this is as an assistant librarian you'll find you need to have a degree.

*Edit* checked with a friend who knows.

There are some depts that have people who stack books but they are not librarians they are just book stacker's although they are called assistant-librarians.

There are other depts that have people who are librarians who assist the librarian they are also called assistant librarians.

Stark where did you get your info from.

Gumbo

OMD wrote: »

You are missing my point totally. The OP is saying we should feel sorry for his wife. People (including me ) are saying she is low paid. The reality is she is not. Again even if she is totally incompetent and never gets promoted. Unless she gets fired (which lets face it is rare enough) by age 34 she will earn more than the average worker. She will earn this by working a 39 hour week The average worker earns his/her pay by working 45 hours a week. On top of that before she is 40 she will be earning just shy of 40K a year. On top of that she will get a lump sum tax free on retirement of 60K (+ any % increase in civil service pay) and a pension of 20k a year (+any % increase in civil service pay). On top of this she will receive 6 months sick pay on full pay in any 3 year period. On top of this she will have guarenteed holidays, more than likely be able to take periods of unpaid leave after pregnancies and possibly get "term time" to help with child care.

The impression here is I am somehow supposed to feel sorry for her! Somehow she is a victim of evil unions and greedy senior civil servants!

did you just make this up?

isint every worker in the country entitled to guaranteed holidays as part of the terms and conditions of their employment?
unpaid leave is available in alot of sectors including the private and public.
in my place we can take 2 weeks off unpaid after becomming a father/mother but thats it.

and you do know that with term time, your wages are cut in half too so its not a case of doing half the hours for the same pay.

boodlesdoodles

OMD wrote: »

You are missing my point totally. The OP is saying we should feel sorry for his wife. People (including me ) are saying she is low paid. The reality is she is not. Again even if she is totally incompetent and never gets promoted. Unless she gets fired (which lets face it is rare enough) by age 34 she will earn more than the average worker. She will earn this by working a 39 hour week The average worker earns his/her pay by working 45 hours a week. On top of that before she is 40 she will be earning just shy of 40K a year. On top of that she will get a lump sum tax free on retirement of 60K (+ any % increase in civil service pay) and a pension of 20k a year (+any % increase in civil service pay). On top of this she will receive 6 months sick pay on full pay in any 3 year period. On top of this she will have guarenteed holidays, more than likely be able to take periods of unpaid leave after pregnancies and possibly get "term time" to help with child care.

So are you saying that the average public sector worker should not receive any increases throughout their career? That they should be happy to stay on pay that they start at? So it should be acceptable that only private sector workers should receive increases and public sector should just be happy to have a job and stay on the basic rate of pay???

Guaranteed hols?? Every employee be they private or public is entitled to holidays or should public sector workers not get any?
Unpaid leave after pregnancy - key word there is unpaid, it doesn't cost the exchequer anything.
Also term time is a saving for the exchequer as a person is not paid for it.

And by the way I'm not a public sector worker, just believe they are being picked on endlessly on boards with malice and lack of reason.

Gulliver

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

...Guaranteed hols?? Every employee be they private or public is entitled to holidays or should public sector workers not get any?
...

I think what OMD means is that people in the Public Sector will get to take all their holidays because of unions etc. In all the companies I've worked for, I was "encouraged" not to take my full entitlement of holidays because we were busy. Didn't get time and a half or anything for those days - just normal pay.

BrianD3

Gulliver wrote: »

I think what OMD means is that people in the Public Sector will get to take all their holidays because of unions etc. In all the companies I've worked for, I was "encouraged" not to take my full entitlement of holidays because we were busy.

Fairly common amongst private sector employers. Bending or breaking any employment laws and contracts they can get away with, no concept of fair treatment or ethics etc. Should the public sector be dragged down to the standards of these employers? It does appear that some people think that holidays and additional unpaid maternity leave (both entitlements under employment law) are proof that public sector jobs are "cushy"

There's even worse than that going on though judging by a Prime Time Investigates programme on slave labour that was on a while back. Scumbag road hauliers forcing truck drivers to break tachograph rules, non payment of tax/PRSI, ripping people off, exploiting immigrants and generally treating people like sh1t.

boodlesdoodles

Gulliver wrote: »

I think what OMD means is that people in the Public Sector will get to take all their holidays because of unions etc. In all the companies I've worked for, I was "encouraged" not to take my full entitlement of holidays because we were busy. Didn't get time and a half or anything for those days - just normal pay.

So its perfectly acceptable for private sector employers to break labour laws by refusing leave. Doesn't help your argument.

Riskymove

S.L.F wrote: »

There are some depts that have people who stack books but they are not librarians they are just book stacker's although they are called assistant-librarians.

I am pretty sure there is also a very big difference (job requirements and pay) between library staff in a public library and in a third level institution

Stark

S.L.F wrote: »

Stark where did you get your info from.

Job vacancy posting for NUIG. Will try and look it up again later.

OMD

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

So are you saying that the average public sector worker should not receive any increases throughout their career? That they should be happy to stay on pay that they start at? So it should be acceptable that only private sector workers should receive increases and public sector should just be happy to have a job and stay on the basic rate of pay???

I never said that. What I am saying is that she is relatively new at the job. The average pay for the job she is doing is 35,000 a year. As I said before her pay will go up every year irrespective of how good she is. She will also get pay increases (usually above inflation) as per pay agreements. This does not happen in Private Sector. You do not get above inflation pay increases and yearly increments unless you have demonstrated that in some way you deserve it.

Last year the government brought in a pay freeze. A pay freeze in Private Sector means your pay is frozen. Sounds pretty obvious. However a pay freeze in the public sector means your pay will still go up. So someone in her position with a pay freeze has got a pay increase of about €1,000 a year. If the government introduce a pay cut of 4% in the budget then her pay in 2010 will be almost identicle to her pay in 2009. This is despite inflation running at -6.5%. This is what they want to strike over. They are not striking about pay cuts in mmany cases, just the lack of a pay rise.

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

Guaranteed hols?? Every employee be they private or public is entitled to holidays or should public sector workers not get any?
Unpaid leave after pregnancy - key word there is unpaid, it doesn't cost the exchequer anything.
Also term time is a saving for the exchequer as a person is not paid for it.
.

I think BrianD3 already answered that. My point was employment laws get broken all the time in private sector. They do not get broken with any the same frequency in public sector.

Head The Wall

Liam79 wrote: »

you know something, I feel sorry for you with attitudes like that. The arrogance and downright sheer ignorance of the real situation in the public sector says a lot more about your own intellect and grasp of reality than I ever could. But hey, if Kevin Myers says its so....it must be......

Have a cup of tea lads. Do ye the world of good.

Ye are overpaid, Brendan Drumm on about the HSE is becoming a world class health service :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Liam79 wrote: »

Your actually proving my point of general ignorance of the public towards what some people in the PS actually do.
You genuinely believe all librarians do is stack shelves, give out and take back books dont you. I mean the sheer ignorance for want of a better word is laughable.
And sure all farmers do is look after a few cows and feed the hens....and all radio dj's do is work 2 hours a day, and all bank tellers do is give out money at the counter etc etc etc.....

Open your eyes!!:eek:

Fill us in so as to what she does as an assistant librarian that makes it such a special job. Did she know the rates for her job when she decided to do her course? Maybe she made a bad choice. You can choose a career path you love, doesn't mean you have to get highly paid for it though!!

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The fact is the PS wage bill has to be cut. The question is what form does that take. Remember there are moreelements to it than core pay. Allowances, overtime etc. The Govt seem to be taking the easy option with across the board cuts on core pay. This doesnt solve anything as regards the ridiculous allowances that some members of the PS are entitled to. If you remove the allowances you also remove one of the biggest elements of inefficecy that exists within the sector. Couple this with more flexibility which allows for the transfering of admin staff between depts. Change the grading system and get rid of automatic increments. These would make for real change.

This is the point where they all run and hide behind their unions and then they tell us they have reformed for their benchmarking money

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I dont doubt in the past people have done well with no University behind them. I got into field sales in the retail sector and did very well with very little Uni only previous retail experience. Now nearly all the bigger firms recruiting sales people are looking for diplomas or higher.My point is that not going to Uni in the current environment is limiting.

Anyone doing recruiting will know that a degree doesn't mean they'll be good at their job, it just means they can apply themselves and study. In some professions though qualifications are needed

Gulliver wrote: »

Anyway - the Government had the biggest hand in screwing this country - not the Civil Servants who worked for them.

The Government is only around 160 TD's, what about the minions below them making decisions - Public sector workers who are not accountable for what they do. TD's do not make every single decision that is made in the running of the country. There is no accountability

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

So are you saying that the average public sector worker should not receive any increases throughout their career? That they should be happy to stay on pay that they start at? So it should be acceptable that only private sector workers should receive increases and public sector should just be happy to have a job and stay on the basic rate of pay???

Also term time is a saving for the exchequer as a person is not paid for it.

Average private sector worker does not get increases for free, they have to work for them, not the case in the public sector where not bettering yourself is rewarded. If all these public sector staff were so good why have they not gotten promoted and don't say there wasn't positions to get promoted to. If there isn't tough on you, stay where you are on the same money or get a job elsewhere.

Term time was raised because it is a perk and pretty much non existant in the private sector

meglome

Liam79 I'm not interested in being involved in the bitching but I did have a search for Library assistant jobs in the UK and not one of them that I saw is offering what your wife is getting paid.

kaymin

Tipp Man wrote: »

And its not just Arts, take an accounting degree for example, on finishing uni doing accounting you are still not a qualified accountant, you get exempt from half the professional qualifiications but your still not qualified, wouldn't it be better for students to do the professional qualifiications rather than go to Uni?? You can do the professional exams in less time than the degree which means your earning more faster.

The whole idea of education in this country is wrong in my opinion

The Chartered accountancy institution doesn't permit students to study the professional exams without having done a primary degree. Studying for a degree tends to broaden peoples horizons and open their minds to new ideas. In my view it's difficult to get the same experience when you go straight into the workforce from school.

Gulliver

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

So its perfectly acceptable for private sector employers to break labour laws by refusing leave. Doesn't help your argument.

My argument? I was just outlining that this kind of thing rarely happens in the Public Sector and if it did, the employee would be heavily compensated.

Just because I did what my employer told me because I didn't want to lose my job and hadn't the backup of a union to make a stand makes the fact that Public Sector hols are pretty much guaranteed moot, does it?

Johnboymac

and as a point of note:
civil servants do not neccessary get pay rises every year for nothing!! over the last few years i have had to do a little thing called PMDS which as all c/s should know has to be completed and assesed as to your performance within the past years before you get any increments!!!
any rise tgherefore is performance related!!! in other words...If we get an increment then we have worked for it!!!!

(dont tar all c/s with the same brush....i would love to be on a salary that some of ye have been banging on about....10yrs service with a sal of 33k....hmm or maybe that is a bit high considering i dont need a degree, just common sense!)

mikemac

Gulliver wrote: »

Just because I did what my employer told me because I didn't want to lose my job and hadn't the backup of a union to make a stand makes the fact that Public Sector hols are pretty much guaranteed moot, does it?

If you worked without taking your annual leave and you aren't self-employed you're not a martyr, you are a sucker.

Annual leave is a legal requirment, your employer could let you go anyway.
By all means work hard and be loyal but take your holidays!

Stark

Johnboymac wrote: »

and as a point of note:
civil servants do not neccessary get pay rises every year for nothing!! over the last few years i have had to do a little thing called PMDS which as all c/s should know has to be completed and assesed as to your performance within the past years before you get any increments!!!
any rise tgherefore is performance related!!! in other words...If we get an increment then we have worked for it!!!!

All of 13 people in the entire civil service didn't get their increments last year. It doesn't say much for the performance review process.

S.L.F

meglome wrote: »

Liam79 I'm not interested in being involved in the bitching but I did have a search for Library assistant jobs in the UK and not one of them that I saw is offering what your wife is getting paid.

I don't think Liam79 would be interested in moving away so his wife can get a job in a foreign country.

I did a check of librarians jobs in Ireland and found one from 2008

http://www.jobsguideireland.com/assistant-librarian-part-time-dublin/

Have a look at the rates of pay.

Stark

S.L.F wrote: »

Have a look at the rates of pay.

Quite decent rates of pay. It's amazing what qualifications and experience get you.

Johnboymac

"Salary Scale (Full-time) : €35,606 to € 47,590 (7 points). Salary on entry will depend on experience and will be paid pro-rata to full-time rate"

I am defo in the wrong job....after 10 yrs in c/s and i'm not even near that starting rate!!...sigh! overpaid c/s my aras!!!!

S.L.F

Riskymove wrote: »

I am pretty sure there is also a very big difference (job requirements and pay) between library staff in a public library and in a third level institution

Job requirement is to have at least a degree in librarianship in either the public libraries or in the Universities.

What librarianship is is the organisation of books and data for easy retrieval, there is far more to it but that is what it basically is

S.L.F

I picked that particular job because it is in the private sector.

ronbyrne2005

S.L.F wrote: »

I picked that particular job because it is in the private sector.

The Royal Irish Academy is basically a public body.

To The North

S.L.F wrote: »

I don't think Liam79 would be interested in moving away so his wife can get a job in a foreign country.

I did a check of librarians jobs in Ireland and found one from 2008

http://www.jobsguideireland.com/assistant-librarian-part-time-dublin/

Have a look at the rates of pay.

that's the wage for an assistant librarian, liam said his wife was a library assistant which is usually 2 wage grades lower than an assistant librarian. so this link doesn't apply to her.

to avoid future confusion here the order goes like this, starting with the lowest grade:

library assistant
senior library assistant
assistant librarian
librarian
head of library services

not all libraries have exactly these same titles, but they're somewhat the same.

To The North

oh and also i meant to add that just because one institution is offering a particular salary has no real baring on what another will pffer, they all have their own version of the pay grades & scales.

also why are we discussion liam's wife's salary so much? it really doesn't sound to me like she's on the kind of wage that we should be worried about.

Stark

To The North wrote: »

also why are we discussion liam's wife's salary so much? it really doesn't sound to me like she's on the kind of wage that we should be worried about.

Because this thread and his other thread were started to complain that she's underpaid.

OMD

Johnboymac wrote: »

I am defo in the wrong job....after 10 yrs in c/s and i'm not even near that starting rate!!...sigh! overpaid c/s my aras!!!!

You are using your example to say civil service is underpaid. It is overpaid. That does not mean every single person is but certainly the average is. I asked a question before that no one answered. Perhaps you can. Median salary in Ireland is about €35000. How many jobs in civil service attract a salary of less than the median wage? In other words if someone enters civil service and never get promoted what will their pay average out at? My feeling is that the vast majority of people who enter civil service can expect to earn above median wage even if they are never promoted.

To The North

Stark wrote: »

Because this thread and his other thread were started to complain that she's underpaid.

ok i guess i typed my question out badly, what i meant was that imo it doesn't sound like what she's getting paid is really the kind of wage we should we worried about in the public service. maybe i'm alone in that though. personally i'm more concerned about things like the fact that brian cowen gets paid more than obama.

CathleenN

I'm hearing so much about this precious job security, yet not everyone in the public sector has it. There are also people with fixed-time contracts, yet when it comes to the pay cuts they are treated just the same as permanent contract holders.

S.L.F

CathleenN wrote: »

I'm hearing so much about this precious job security, yet not everyone in the public sector has it. There are also people with fixed-time contracts, yet when it comes to the pay cuts they are treated just the same as permanent contract holders.

Plus of course the fact that they also pay the pension levy even though they won't get a PS pension.

ZYX

S.L.F wrote: »

Plus of course the fact that they also pay the pension levy even though they won't get a PS pension.

They will wont they. I worked in public service for 5 years on multiple different contracts and different locations. I am certainly entitled to a pension when I retire. 5/80 of final salary.