My outrage at some members of the Private Sector..

LordDorington

Liam79 wrote: »

Who believe everything they read and hear in the biased media.....
ye havent a clue

Well maybe they have too much time on their hands to read everything they hear since they lost their jobs, pension funds and homes.

Liam79

LordDorington wrote: »

Well maybe they have too much time on their hands to read everything they hear since they lost their jobs, pension funds and homes.

and because some poor soul in the Private Sector lost his job, ye think the people in the PS should feel guilty for having one! I refer you to the thread on the article in the tribune yesterday on this same board

MaceFace

Liam79 wrote: »

and because some poor soul in the Private Sector lost his job, ye think the people in the PS should feel guilty for having one! I refer you to the thread on the article in the tribune yesterday on this same board

Stop playing the victim and contribute something worthwhile.

I think the various conversation on boards have moved on to the argument that the public sector employer is borrowing money to pay the wages which is unsustainable and contributing to a very uncompetitive nation.
This has nothing to do with jealousy or guilt.
How about being a bit constructive and suggest how we get out of this hole?

LordDorington

quote:
One other thing, if Public Service pay and conditions were so bloody marvellous why didn't ye all become Civil Servants? Or did ye not meet the entry requirements?

...yes not all of us have relatives in the public sector

LordDorington

Liam79 wrote: »

and because some poor soul in the Private Sector lost his job, ye think the people in the PS should feel guilty for having one! I refer you to the thread on the article in the tribune yesterday on this same board

Wishing someone would stop moaning and get a bit of perspective is not the same as asking them to be guilty.

NOGMaxpower

2 cents...

Unity solidarity are things of the past when people are confronted with a cut in their life style regardless of pay grade. So these arguments are natural and part of the process.

Private sector has needed a drop in salaries for the last 10 years. IBEC have been lobbying for such moves for the past 15. Its no surprise that the very 1st act in the recession was IBEC advising their members to cut salaries by 20% (something they asked the governement to do but failed). In fact a lot of private sector companies were very opportunist in how they asked their staff to take cuts. Lets face facts too the private sector has been collapsing for a while now, on average most Private companies have had a wage freeze for the past 2 years and a bonus freeze on top of that. The timing of most pay freezes was almost perfect too to coincide with the "emergency budget" IBEC again were fully aware of the time lines of their advise.

I think this is the bitter pill the private sector worker is sick of. 1st up pay cut hard to take but was necessary to do when faced with redundancies or going bust. couple of months later bam massive tax levys etc - insult to injury and most were left thinking "sh&t i can't take that cut or i shouldn't have taken that cut". The general feel is they've done their part already especially since it wasn't their mess and it was a mess fuelled by the Government.

Brings me to public sector revolt, the private sector see the public sector to blame since they link Governemnt and Public sector together. This is a fine association but look beyond ministers and execs and you're now getting to the bones of the issues. It was the average Public Sector worker who plodded along with their job and they too feel like they didn't do anything to cause the recession as we know it. They blame private sector banks and developers while private sector average workers blame the public sector financial regulators etc. = head to head with no resolution in sight at all and its exactly what the top heads in the public and private sector want in essance a Public v's Private smoke screen.

But still a disparity of salaries and incomes remain in our workforce, the largest of whom who've been inpacted to date is the Private Sector worker. Who's next the Public sector worker. Unfortuantely the UNION bosses are jumping in and throwing their usual weight around. UNION bossess also presided over the boom years were more than happy to increase their member base int eh construction industry. now their focus is on public sector members, something the public sector need to remember that the Unions serve their own existance 1st and members 2nd.

I am all for protecting workers rights but to cause dissary and resentment in ireland is a by product of how the Unions are currently handling things with strikes and threats of more strikes.

This is not the time or the place for such rivarly. The public sector needs to be cut back majorly, in salaries and by headcount. they are a top heavy organisation with far too many managers and too little front line staff. These are the 1st to be cut. Anyone in pubilc sector earning between 45 and 50k a year should have their wages cut by 15% on average depending on their condidtions (# of children etc) anyone above 50k needs to accept a 20% cut in wages while those earning over 100k should accept a 50% cut.

This is how the private sector got cut and its how the public sector needs to go to. there's no arguing these cuts have to happen. otherwise the ECB will come along and rollout a blanket cut without taking into account peoples living situations.

Finally = end of rant. We as the people of Ireland need to remember our roots, as a nation who stands together. We ALL need to rally ourselves upon O'Connoll street, stand outside the GPO and stand side by side while we all call upon our current government to step down. Demand those in the banking industry and developers who caused this problem be brought to justice for their actions. Likewise bailing out of banks needs to stop, there are certain banks that need to go to the wall and let rot. instead of leaving our future children foot the bill for those 5% of our nations mistakes.

rossithelegend

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

2 cents...

Unity solidarity are things of the past when people are confronted with a cut in their life style regardless of pay grade. So these arguments are natural and part of the process.

Private sector has needed a drop in salaries for the last 10 years. IBEC have been lobbying for such moves for the past 15. Its no surprise that the very 1st act in the recession was IBEC advising their members to cut salaries by 20% (something they asked the governement to do but failed). In fact a lot of private sector companies were very opportunist in how they asked their staff to take cuts. Lets face facts too the private sector has been collapsing for a while now, on average most Private companies have had a wage freeze for the past 2 years and a bonus freeze on top of that. The timing of most pay freezes was almost perfect too to coincide with the "emergency budget" IBEC again were fully aware of the time lines of their advise.

I think this is the bitter pill the private sector worker is sick of. 1st up pay cut hard to take but was necessary to do when faced with redundancies or going bust. couple of months later bam massive tax levys etc - insult to injury and most were left thinking "sh&t i can't take that cut or i shouldn't have taken that cut". The general feel is they've done their part already especially since it wasn't their mess and it was a mess fuelled by the Government.

Brings me to public sector revolt, the private sector see the public sector to blame since they link Governemnt and Public sector together. This is a fine association but look beyond ministers and execs and you're now getting to the bones of the issues. It was the average Public Sector worker who plodded along with their job and they too feel like they didn't do anything to cause the recession as we know it. They blame private sector banks and developers while private sector average workers blame the public sector financial regulators etc. = head to head with no resolution in sight at all and its exactly what the top heads in the public and private sector want in essance a Public v's Private smoke screen.

But still a disparity of salaries and incomes remain in our workforce, the largest of whom who've been inpacted to date is the Private Sector worker. Who's next the Public sector worker. Unfortuantely the UNION bosses are jumping in and throwing their usual weight around. UNION bossess also presided over the boom years were more than happy to increase their member base int eh construction industry. now their focus is on public sector members, something the public sector need to remember that the Unions serve their own existance 1st and members 2nd.

I am all for protecting workers rights but to cause dissary and resentment in ireland is a by product of how the Unions are currently handling things with strikes and threats of more strikes.

This is not the time or the place for such rivarly. The public sector needs to be cut back majorly, in salaries and by headcount. they are a top heavy organisation with far too many managers and too little front line staff. These are the 1st to be cut. Anyone in pubilc sector earning between 45 and 50k a year should have their wages cut by 15% on average depending on their condidtions (# of children etc) anyone above 50k needs to accept a 20% cut in wages while those earning over 100k should accept a 50% cut.

This is how the private sector got cut and its how the public sector needs to go to. there's no arguing these cuts have to happen. otherwise the ECB will come along and rollout a blanket cut without taking into account peoples living situations.

Finally = end of rant. We as the people of Ireland need to remember our roots, as a nation who stands together. We ALL need to rally ourselves upon O'Connoll street, stand outside the GPO and stand side by side while we all call upon our current government to step down. Demand those in the banking industry and developers who caused this problem be brought to justice for their actions. Likewise bailing out of banks needs to stop, there are certain banks that need to go to the wall and let rot. instead of leaving our future children foot the bill for those 5% of our nations mistakes.

Even those men at the GPO in 1916 had a hard time getting Irish people to stand together, all through our history we've been too busy fighting with each other than focusing on the real problem and solving it, it's just a pity more people dont think like yourself and I'd be happy to stand at the GPO with you!

P. Breathnach

LordDorington wrote: »

... yes not all of us have relatives in the public sector

That is not an entry requirement, or even an advantage to an applicant.

Liam79

LordDorington wrote: »

quote:
One other thing, if Public Service pay and conditions were so bloody marvellous why didn't ye all become Civil Servants? Or did ye not meet the entry requirements?

...yes not all of us have relatives in the public sector

So your suggesting all PS workers got in thru relations....what a disgraceful thing to say. Especially when you consider how many private sector employees work for "The da" or "the uncle" or "the brother" etc :rolleyes:
and so you know, the days of "pull" in the public sector went out with glam rock! The current case in Limerick with the regeneration board recruitment being so disgraceful and unacceptable is proof of this.

NOGMaxpower

all this bickering sadens me

Public take the hit

Private stop giving them grief about how much of a hit to take

Public/Private stand as one, fight as one so a new dawn will smile upon us.

S.L.F

Rob67 wrote: »

I have tried to point that out but unfortunately no-one really pays any heed to it usually gets in the way of a god rant!) I've said it before; the Pension Levy is a tax on people who work in the Public Service, by definition a levy is an imposition of a tax. The pension levy goes to central funds, does not go to the pension fund and does not increase the value of the pension on retirement. People who are on fixed term contracts will never see this money in any shape or form after their contract period has expired.

It would have been simpler and more efficient to impose a pay cut... and more honest.

I'm not sure why you were quoting me there, I'm all too well aware that the pension levy is just a tax on working for the public service, if it was anything other than that the part timers who pay the pension levy would be getting a pension but don't.

whatnext wrote: »

http://www.ria.ie/about/pdfs/report2008.pdf

Page 60

Sorry don't see what you are trying to say

irish_bob wrote: »

public sector wages rose faster during the boom than in the private sector

According to the graph you showed

10 years ago private sector pay was 74.72% of public sector pay and in 2008 it was 77% of public sector pay.

If you take the pension levy into consideration the private sector pay comes up to 83% of public sector pay

murphaph wrote: »

I hope you made that mistake honestly!

Your figures show a higher %age increase for the private sector purely because the private sector started out with a much lower wage in 1998!

To interpret this graph and determine whether or not public sector pay rose faster than private sector pay, it's as simple as looking at the two lines' divergence!

If the lines were parallel then growth would have been at the same rate.

See above

murphaph

If the rates of growth in pay in both sectors continued as in that graph (even ignoring the downward trend in 2008 for the private sector), the public sector would eventually earn double and the treble the pay in the private sector. The private sector would never catch up with the public sector-the lines diverge with time! The lines would have to be parallel for the same rate of pay increase in both sectors!

irish_bob

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

2 cents...

Unity solidarity are things of the past when people are confronted with a cut in their life style regardless of pay grade. So these arguments are natural and part of the process.

Private sector has needed a drop in salaries for the last 10 years. IBEC have been lobbying for such moves for the past 15. Its no surprise that the very 1st act in the recession was IBEC advising their members to cut salaries by 20% (something they asked the governement to do but failed). In fact a lot of private sector companies were very opportunist in how they asked their staff to take cuts. Lets face facts too the private sector has been collapsing for a while now, on average most Private companies have had a wage freeze for the past 2 years and a bonus freeze on top of that. The timing of most pay freezes was almost perfect too to coincide with the "emergency budget" IBEC again were fully aware of the time lines of their advise.

I think this is the bitter pill the private sector worker is sick of. 1st up pay cut hard to take but was necessary to do when faced with redundancies or going bust. couple of months later bam massive tax levys etc - insult to injury and most were left thinking "sh&t i can't take that cut or i shouldn't have taken that cut". The general feel is they've done their part already especially since it wasn't their mess and it was a mess fuelled by the Government.

Brings me to public sector revolt, the private sector see the public sector to blame since they link Governemnt and Public sector together. This is a fine association but look beyond ministers and execs and you're now getting to the bones of the issues. It was the average Public Sector worker who plodded along with their job and they too feel like they didn't do anything to cause the recession as we know it. They blame private sector banks and developers while private sector average workers blame the public sector financial regulators etc. = head to head with no resolution in sight at all and its exactly what the top heads in the public and private sector want in essance a Public v's Private smoke screen.

But still a disparity of salaries and incomes remain in our workforce, the largest of whom who've been inpacted to date is the Private Sector worker. Who's next the Public sector worker. Unfortuantely the UNION bosses are jumping in and throwing their usual weight around. UNION bossess also presided over the boom years were more than happy to increase their member base int eh construction industry. now their focus is on public sector members, something the public sector need to remember that the Unions serve their own existance 1st and members 2nd.

I am all for protecting workers rights but to cause dissary and resentment in ireland is a by product of how the Unions are currently handling things with strikes and threats of more strikes.

This is not the time or the place for such rivarly. The public sector needs to be cut back majorly, in salaries and by headcount. they are a top heavy organisation with far too many managers and too little front line staff. These are the 1st to be cut. Anyone in pubilc sector earning between 45 and 50k a year should have their wages cut by 15% on average depending on their condidtions (# of children etc) anyone above 50k needs to accept a 20% cut in wages while those earning over 100k should accept a 50% cut.

This is how the private sector got cut and its how the public sector needs to go to. there's no arguing these cuts have to happen. otherwise the ECB will come along and rollout a blanket cut without taking into account peoples living situations.

Finally = end of rant. We as the people of Ireland need to remember our roots, as a nation who stands together. We ALL need to rally ourselves upon O'Connoll street, stand outside the GPO and stand side by side while we all call upon our current government to step down. Demand those in the banking industry and developers who caused this problem be brought to justice for their actions. Likewise bailing out of banks needs to stop, there are certain banks that need to go to the wall and let rot. instead of leaving our future children foot the bill for those 5% of our nations mistakes.

epic post , truly epic

S.L.F

murphaph wrote: »

If the rates of growth in pay in both sectors continued as in that graph (even ignoring the downward trend in 2008 for the private sector), the public sector would eventually earn double and the treble the pay in the private sector. The private sector would never catch up with the public sector-the lines diverge with time! The lines would have to be parallel for the same rate of pay increase in both sectors!

If the lines were to be parallel then that would prove that the private sector were catching up but not over taking.

eg. if I was a professional say an architect in the PS for €60,000 a year and you are a barman on €40,000 a year and if everyone got the exact same pay rise every year say €1,000 then in 20 years I'd be on €80,000 and you'd be on €60,000.

Your increases would be of a higher precentages than mine but the graph would show a parallel line.

The thing most people forget is that the public service has a much bigger % of professionals in it, these people don't work for the same money as burger flippers, barmen, waitresses, labourers or whatever else and thus the average public sector wage will always be higher that private sector.

It can't be any other way otherwise nobody would want to be in the PS

irish_bob

S.L.F wrote: »

If the lines were to be parallel then that would prove that the private sector were catching up but not over taking.

eg. if I was a professional say an architect in the PS for €60,000 a year and you are a barman on €40,000 a year and if everyone got the exact same pay rise every year say €1,000 then in 20 years I'd be on €80,000 and you'd be on €60,000.

Your increases would be of a higher precentages than mine but the graph would show a parallel line.

The thing most people forget is that the public service has a much bigger % of professionals in it, these people don't work for the same money as burger flippers, barmen, waitresses, labourers or whatever else and thus the average public sector wage will always be higher that private sector.

It can't be any other way otherwise nobody would want to be in the PS

how come its the other way around in most other countries , ireland is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the public sector being higher paid

TheInquisitor

shoegirl wrote: »

You've hit the nail on the head there. A big part of the problem though, is permitting TNCs to obliquely block worker organizations like trade unions has created a communications gap that is easy to manipulate via the media, and lead to an impression that trade unions/public sector workers are the entire cause of the problem.

You are absolutely right on the admins in the HSE, but there are also lots of overworked grade 3s doing the real admin work, on a max wage of about 32k a year, without whom the system simply would break down (these are the folks who do the record keeping, send/answer letters, make appointments etc). Part of the reason of course why there are so many grade 8s is because of the plethora of small units that require local management - I understand a significant part of rolling together smaller units into bigger ones is to eliminate a lot of this expensive local management. Of course why not simply get rid of the local management instead and manage it remotely from the bigger units?

Secondly there are a lot of skilled and qualified roles in the sector that have severe barriers to entry - qualifications that take 4-5 years to achieve like engineers, architects, legal profession etc. You cannot compare that to a similar role in the private sector where technically, nobody in their right mind should pay 900 a week to somebody with no skills or qualifications (although in reality, significant numbers of low skilled idiots are still there on vastly inflated wages also).

So someone who does a bit of admin work deserves 32k a year?? Sending off a few letters and faxes and making appointments?? 20k a year MAX!

S.L.F

irish_bob wrote: »

how come its the other way around in most other countries , ireland is the exception rather than the norm when it comes to the public sector being higher paid

If you want to really compare wages between different countries the thing for you to do is take the wage of a professional who works for someone else and compare it with the wage of the same profession in the PS but you have to do it in both countries.

S.L.F

TheInquisitor wrote: »

So someone who does a bit of admin work deserves 32k a year?? Sending off a few letters and faxes and making appointments?? 20k a year MAX!

LOL

This is one of the funniest posts I have read in years

milkerman

Liam79 wrote: »

So your suggesting all PS workers got in thru relations....what a disgraceful thing to say. Especially when you consider how many private sector employees work for "The da" or "the uncle" or "the brother" etc :rolleyes:
and so you know, the days of "pull" in the public sector went out with glam rock! The current case in Limerick with the regeneration board recruitment being so disgraceful and unacceptable is proof of this.

Funny, I thought the Regeneration Board pulled staff from another Local Authority that had already shown a proven track record in cleaning out cesspits. The question begs to be asked - why didnt the local Council staff do something about cleaning up the place before Fitzgerald had to be brought in?
Other than that dont mind Lordwhateverhisnameis - obviously didnt make the Grade ii panel:D

milkerman

TheInquisitor wrote: »

So someone who does a bit of admin work deserves 32k a year?? Sending off a few letters and faxes and making appointments?? 20k a year MAX!

Our equivalent of the above decription costs us 33k in the private sector. We tried the cheaper option but got txt spel on our correspondence and belly-tops. Not that I objected to the latter. But if you want someone good you usually have to pay for them.

murphaph

milkerman wrote: »

Our equivalent of the above decription costs us 33k in the private sector. We tried the cheaper option but got txt spel on our correspondence and belly-tops. Not that I objected to the latter. But if you want someone good you usually have to pay for them.

I thought we had "the best educated workforce in the world" or something, at least that's what our 60 grand a year teachers keep telling us lol.

brianthebard

murphaph wrote: »

I thought we had "the best educated workforce in the world" or something, at least that's what our 60 grand a year teachers keep telling us lol.

How many teachers are on 60 grand a year, as a percentage of the total teaching staff? According to the TUI it would be the top five pay grades which earn somewhere around there. http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html
Can you tell me how many earn 60 grand or are you just spouting nonsense?

murphaph

S.L.F wrote: »

If the lines were to be parallel then that would prove that the private sector were catching up but not over taking.

eg. if I was a professional say an architect in the PS for €60,000 a year and you are a barman on €40,000 a year and if everyone got the exact same pay rise every year say €1,000 then in 20 years I'd be on €80,000 and you'd be on €60,000.

Your increases would be of a higher precentages than mine but the graph would show a parallel line.

That's not catching up though. The 20k offset is still there. The architect still earns 20k more than the barman at the end.

Anyway-these are average salaries. I don't believe there is a NEED for more 'educated' people in the public sector-it just so happens that many jobs which could easily be learned through 'on the job training' require a degree for no particular reason. Are there no cleaners or canteen staff in the public sector anyway?

Rob67

S.L.F wrote: »

I'm not sure why you were quoting me there, I'm all too well aware that the pension levy is just a tax on working for the public service, if it was anything other than that the part timers who pay the pension levy would be getting a pension but don't.

Sorry, obviously I didn't make it clear that I was supporting you but trying to point out that I have attempted to use the same argument but to no avail. See this link:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055731573 I will freely admit that my position is partisan, I did try to agree (to a certain level) to the anti-Public Sector perspective. There are persons who are so angry at the Public Sector, who will not stop until they get their pound of flesh regardless of the consequences, in my opinion.

Whilst I can see their general point of view, I cannot agree to their attitude towards the Public Sector, it is only going to lead to further division if it is allowed to continue further.

murphaph

brianthebard wrote: »

How many teachers are on 60 grand a year, as a percentage of the total teaching staff? According to the TUI it would be the top five pay grades which earn somewhere around there. http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html
Can you tell me how many earn 60 grand or are you just spouting nonsense?

I don't know exactly how many there are but one teacher on 60 grand is one too many-it simply doesn't deserve that much no matter how long you last at it!

milkerman

murphaph wrote: »

I thought we had "the best educated workforce in the world" or something, at least that's what our 60 grand a year teachers keep telling us lol.

You miss the point. You will get some txy spkng airhead for 20k, another kid from the same classroom that listened to the teacher, studied, passed exams etc will cost you more. The parents have the greatest influence though - if mammy & daddy (presuming there is one) spend their day sponging off the state then the kids usually will when their time comes.
Waiting to be carted away by the political correctness police. Guilty m'lud!

brianthebard

murphaph wrote: »

I don't know exactly how many there are but one teacher on 60 grand is one too many-it simply doesn't deserve that much no matter how long you last at it!

If you're going to backpedal you should just take back your original remark altogether. You don't know if any teacher is on 60 grand, nor do you know the reasons why someone might be, but you were happy to make a blanket statement to the effect that all teachers are creaming it on 60 grand salaries. this is the level of insight shown generally in threads of this nature, with all the anti-union and anti-public sector posters patting each other on the back as they make false or silly claims which add absolutely nothing to the debate.

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

how come its the other way around in most other countries , ireland is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the public sector being higher paid

I'm not sure that is true. There was a post here a few weeks ago suggesting that in many countries the public sector earns more than the private sector, and pointing to data. I know it came from one of our more respected participants (meaning, in my book, somebody who does not make unsubstantiated assertions) but I can't remember which one; if I could remember who made it, I'd hunt for it.

S.L.F

murphaph wrote: »

That's not catching up though. The 20k offset is still there. The architect still earns 20k more than the barman at the end.

I get the feeling you are taking the mick here.

If you are not then you might learn something here.

Try this example.

I studied hard for 4 years and ended up as an architect and get paid 2 euro a year.

You didn't bother to study and have ended up sweeping the streets for €1 a year.

ie you earn 50% of what I earn.

Next year we both get a pay rise of €1 so you are earning 66.66% of what I earn.

The next year we get another pay rise of €1 so you are now earning 75% of what I earn.

The next year it is 80% then 83% then 85.7 then 87.5 and then 90% of what I earn.

After 20 years it is 95% of what I earn.

The difference in wages is still €1.

You'd have to be a real slaphead not to be able to get what I'm saying here.

murphaph wrote: »

Anyway-these are average salaries. I don't believe there is a NEED for more 'educated' people in the public sector-it just so happens that many jobs which could easily be learned through 'on the job training' require a degree for no particular reason.

What about librarians, Catalogers, engineers (All types), solicitors (Judges, Barristers), biologists, veterinarians, Doctors, Nurses (and all types of med staff including lab techs), Architects, Arch technicians, Artists, Historians, Teachers, Map makers?

Of course you can learn it all in a week, I'm surprised they even bothered to have degrees in those demanding subjects.

murphaph wrote: »

Are there no cleaners or canteen staff in the public sector anyway?

Last I heard they are not recruiting, you can try again next year

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

If you're going to backpedal you should just take back your original remark altogether. You don't know if any teacher is on 60 grand, nor do you know the reasons why someone might be, but you were happy to make a blanket statement to the effect that all teachers are creaming it on 60 grand salaries. this is the level of insight shown generally in threads of this nature, with all the anti-union and anti-public sector posters patting each other on the back as they make false or silly claims which add absolutely nothing to the debate.

The wage scales are on the INTO websites. What's the problem?

Is the INTO a poor source?

Not all teachers are on 60k, but plenty are.