My outrage at some members of the Private Sector..

brianthebard

K-9 wrote: »

The wage scales are on the INTO websites. What's the problem?

Is the INTO a poor source?

Not all teachers are on 60k, but plenty are.

I provided a scale from the TUI, is it necessary to provide all possible sources? I wanted the person I quoted to give a figure to their comment. Can you tell me how many teachers as a percentage of the total are on 60k? I'm unsure what 'plenty' corresponds to in numerical terms.

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

I provided a scale from the TUI, is it necessary to provide all possible sources? I wanted the person I quoted to give a figure to their comment. Can you tell me how many teachers as a percentage of the total are on 60k? I'm unsure what 'plenty' corresponds to in numerical terms.

Ah, is is that hard for you to go onto the INTO website?

Do I have to dig out the links?

waitingforBB

How much do teachers earn per hour?
And how would the unions enforce 12 unpaid days per year?

Just curious

waitingforBB

Just trying to do my own sums.......
My brother is a national school teacher and earns 56K (33 years old, vice principal). Gets all the playground allowances etc...

I also have a sister who works in a creche earning 8.65 per hour.

LordDorington

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That is not an entry requirement, or even an advantage to an applicant.

of course..

LordDorington

waitingforBB wrote: »

Just trying to do my own sums.......
My brother is a national school teacher and earns 56K (33 years old, vice principal). Gets all the playground allowances etc...

I also have a sister who works in a creche earning 8.65 per hour.

And the national school day finishes at what time?

murphaph

S.L.F wrote: »

I get the feeling you are taking the mick here.

If you are not then you might learn something here.

Try this example.

I studied hard for 4 years and ended up as an architect and get paid 2 euro a year.

You didn't bother to study and have ended up sweeping the streets for €1 a year.

ie you earn 50% of what I earn.

Next year we both get a pay rise of €1 so you are earning 66.66% of what I earn.

The next year we get another pay rise of €1 so you are now earning 75% of what I earn.

The next year it is 80% then 83% then 85.7 then 87.5 and then 90% of what I earn.

After 20 years it is 95% of what I earn.

The difference in wages is still €1.

You'd have to be a real slaphead not to be able to get what I'm saying here.



What about librarians, Catalogers, engineers (All types), solicitors (Judges, Barristers), biologists, veterinarians, Doctors, Nurses (and all types of med staff including lab techs), Architects, Arch technicians, Artists, Historians, Teachers, Map makers?

Of course you can learn it all in a week, I'm surprised they even bothered to have degrees in those demanding subjects.



Last I heard they are not recruiting, you can try again next year

No need for the personal abuse thinly disguised as a joke. I have my engineering degree-I'm just not a w@nker who believes he's entitled to anything because of it. There are loads of admin staff in the PS-do they all need degrees (and the commensurate pay) as well?

Do you see that given the established trend in that graph that eventually a public servant would earn double the average wage of a private sector worker? Can you see that? The lines diverge. Without addressing public sector pay they will keep diverging.

Here:
1998->2008 Pub.Sec: 29,536->49,006 (+19,470/66%)
1998->2008 Pri.Sec: 22,071->37,722 (+15,651/71%)

Diff in pay rise 1998->2008: 3,819

2008->2018 Pub.Sec: 49,006->81,350 (+32,344/66%)
2008->2018 Pri.Sec: 37,722->64,505 (+26,783/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2008->2018: 5,561 (+1,742 more for the public servant)

2018->2028 Pub.Sec: 81,350->135,041 (+53,691/66%)
2018->2028 Pri.Sec: 64,505->110,304(+45,799/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2018->2028: 7,892 (+2,331 more for the public servant)

So every year the public servant gets a bigger pay rise than his private sector counterpart. I don't see how the private sector worker can ever 'catch up'-it's impossible with these rates of pay increases in the respective sectors. The private sector worker falls further and further behind the public sector worker year on year as he gets smaller pay increases each year than his public sector counterpart.

Every ten years (at current percentage rates of pay increase in both sectors) the margin between the public and private sector pay rise will grow until the public sector worker earns double, then triple+ the pay of his private sector counter- part. This is the established trend and it must be addressed unless we want average pay in the public sector to end up at double that of the private sector.

brianthebard

K-9 wrote: »

Ah, is is that hard for you to go onto the INTO website?

Do I have to dig out the links?

Please do, cause you certainly aren't proving anything by vague references. Don't forget to include how many teachers as a percentage of the overall are earning 60k. That was the whole point of your posts right?

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

Please do, cause you certainly aren't proving anything by vague references. Don't forget to include how many teachers as a percentage of the overall are earning 60k. That was the whole point of your posts right?

According to the TUI site:

The common basic scale (of which there are twenty five increments) starts at 32,599 and goes up to 63,360. This gives an average of 44,295.

It is hard to work out the % of those earning over a specific amount since we cannot assume that there are equal numbers of recipients on each increment.

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

Added to this, the hourly rate for casual teaching is €49.60 and for unqualified is €43.

Supervision and substitution come in at €50.34 an hour.

brianthebard

LordDorington wrote: »

According to the TUI site:

The common basic scale (of which there are twenty five increments) starts at 32,599 and goes up to 63,360. This gives an average of 44,295.

It is hard to work out the % of those earning over a specific amount since we cannot assume that there are equal numbers of recipients on each increment.

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

Added to this, the hourly rate for casual teaching is €49.60 and for unqualified is €43.

Supervision and substitution come in at €50.34 an hour.

That has nothing to do with the question in hand, and I don't think the average adds anything to it either.

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

Please do, cause you certainly aren't proving anything by vague references. Don't forget to include how many teachers as a percentage of the overall are earning 60k. That was the whole point of your posts right?

Here we go brian:

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

Academic Allowances:
http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/AcademicandOtherAllowances/


Principal Allowances etc.:
http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/PromotedPostAllowances/

A teacher after pay scale 13 would be on 60k with allowances.

With about 60,000 teachers in the country, the INTO and TUI figures would suggest plenty get it alright!

Of course we can now do a to and fro about how many are on 60k and ignore the wage scales completely.

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

That has nothing to do with the question in hand, and I don't think the average adds anything to it either.

See post 214 please....

And what is meant by "I dont think the average adds anything to it either"? An average is a statistical and mathematical fact. It is not subjective nor is it dependant on whether or not people like what it shows.

S.L.F

murphaph wrote: »

No need for the personal abuse thinly disguised as a joke.

The only person who is giving you abuse is yourself...see below

murphaph wrote: »

I have my engineering degree-I'm just not a w@nker who believes he's entitled to anything because of it.

******************************************************

murphaph wrote: »

There are loads of admin staff in the PS-do they all need degrees (and the commensurate pay) as well?

You are so precise, so what percentage of the CS is loads?

murphaph wrote: »

Do you see that given the established trend in that graph that eventually a public servant would earn double the average wage of a private sector worker? Can you see that? The lines diverge. Without addressing public sector pay they will keep diverging.

Here:
1998->2008 Pub.Sec: 29,536->49,006 (+19,470/66%)
1998->2008 Pri.Sec: 22,071->37,722 (+15,651/71%)

Diff in pay rise 1998->2008: 3,819

2008->2018 Pub.Sec: 49,006->81,350 (+32,344/66%)
2008->2018 Pri.Sec: 37,722->64,505 (+26,783/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2008->2018: 5,561 (+1,742 more for the public servant)

2018->2028 Pub.Sec: 81,350->135,041 (+53,691/66%)
2018->2028 Pri.Sec: 64,505->110,304(+45,799/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2018->2028: 7,892 (+2,331 more for the public servant)

So every year the public servant gets a bigger pay rise than his private sector counterpart. I don't see how the private sector worker can ever 'catch up'-it's impossible with these rates of pay increases in the respective sectors. The private sector worker falls further and further behind the public sector worker year on year as he gets smaller pay increases each year than his public sector counterpart.

Every ten years (at current percentage rates of pay increase in both sectors) the margin between the public and private sector pay rise will grow until the public sector worker earns double, then triple+ the pay of his private sector counter- part. This is the established trend and it must be addressed unless we want average pay in the public sector to end up at double that of the private sector.

This is a load of crap.

Allow me to demonstrate.

Here:
1998->2008 Pub.Sec: 29,536->49,006 (+19,470/66%)
1998->2008 Pri.Sec: 22,071->37,722 (+15,651/71%)

Diff in pay rise 1998->2008: 3,819....3819 as a precentage of the Public sector wage is 7.792%

2008->2018 Pub.Sec: 49,006->81,350 (+32,344/66%)
2008->2018 Pri.Sec: 37,722->64,505 (+26,783/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2008->2018: 5,561 (+1,742 more for the public servant)....5561 as a precentage of the public sector wage is going down to 6.836%

2018->2028 Pub.Sec: 81,350->135,041 (+53,691/66%)
2018->2028 Pri.Sec: 64,505->110,304(+45,799/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2018->2028: 7,892 (+2,331 more for the public servant)....7892 as a precentage of the Public sector wage is down further to 5.844%

If this keeps up according to your figures the Private sector will pass out the Public sector.

And this of course is with out using the pension levy which would have the private sector pass the public sector in a very fast time altogether.

brianthebard

K-9 wrote: »

Here we go brian:

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

Academic Allowances:
http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/AcademicandOtherAllowances/


Principal Allowances etc.:
http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/PromotedPostAllowances/

A teacher after pay scale 13 would be on 60k with allowances.

With about 60,000 teachers in the country, the INTO and TUI figures would suggest plenty get it alright!

Of course we can now do a to and fro about how many are on 60k and ignore the wage scales completely.

I think your assumption that all teachers are on doctorate allowances is a bit wrong headed. Again I'd like to see you show prove how many teachers as a percentage of the whole are on 60k,that was the question. I already posted a link to the wage scale, so there's no point suggesting I have ignored it.

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

I think your assumption that all teachers are on doctorate allowances is a bit wrong headed. Again I'd like to see you show prove how many teachers as a percentage of the whole are on 60k,that was the question. I already posted a link to the wage scale, so there's no point suggesting I have ignored it.

In fairness I also posted a link to a pay scale from the TUI site and you basically dismissed it

brianthebard

LordDorington wrote: »

See post 214 please....

And what is meant by "I dont think the average adds anything to it either"? An average is a statistical and mathematical fact. It is not subjective nor is it dependant on whether or not people like what it shows.

What has this post got to do with anything? http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63278196&postcount=214

The average tells me absolutely nothing about the percentage of teachers earning 60k.

LordDorington wrote: »

In fairness I also posted a link to a pay scale from the TUI site and you basically dismissed it

I posted that link myself earlier.

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

What has this post got to do with anything? http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63278196&postcount=214

The average tells me absolutely nothing about the percentage of teachers earning 60k.

So now I am not allowed answer other peoples questions is that it

brianthebard

LordDorington wrote: »

So now I am not allowed answer other peoples questions is that it

If you want to answer the question in post 214 go ahead, but why ask me about it?

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

I provided a scale from the TUI, is it necessary to provide all possible sources? I wanted the person I quoted to give a figure to their comment. Can you tell me how many teachers as a percentage of the total are on 60k? I'm unsure what 'plenty' corresponds to in numerical terms.

Isnt it quite obvious from the layout of their info that we cannot deduce this figure (at least not from the links here)?

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

If you want to answer the question in post 214 go ahead, but why ask me about it?

I havent ASKED you anything.

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

If you want to answer the question in post 214 go ahead, but why ask me about it?

I havent ASKED you anything

And for the record, my initial post to you did say
"It is hard to work out the % of those earning over a specific amount since we cannot assume that there are equal numbers of recipients on each increment."

Though you chose to ignore this for some reason.....

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

What has this post got to do with anything? http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63278196&postcount=214

The average tells me absolutely nothing about the percentage of teachers earning 60k.




I posted that link myself earlier.

Yes, and then when someone else posts it you dismiss it. Thats my point...

brianthebard

LordDorington wrote: »

Isnt it quite obvious from the layout of their info that we cannot deduce this figure (at least not from the links here)?

This is what K-9 and others have been ignoring thus far.

LordDorington wrote: »

Yes, and then when someone else posts it you dismiss it. Thats my point...

I did not dismiss the website, I said your post did not answer the question, which it did not.

K-9

LordDorington wrote: »

See post 214 please....

And what is meant by "I dont think the average adds anything to it either"? An average is a statistical and mathematical fact. It is not subjective nor is it dependant on whether or not people like what it shows.

In fairness, the average would mean more for teachers pay as say compared to average Public Sector pay. It is more defined and the range is quite small.

brianthebard wrote: »

I think your assumption that all teachers are on doctorate allowances is a bit wrong headed. Again I'd like to see you show prove how many teachers as a percentage of the whole are on 60k,that was the question. I already posted a link to the wage scale, so there's no point suggesting I have ignored it.

Now, we are onto the usual side tracking and oneupmanship that takes over these threads. I'm assuming nothing, just posting the figures. You questioned, fairly, a poster about a statement that appeared like all teachers are on 60k. You asked if even one teacher was on 60k.

So, the debate changed and I think we can safely assume that, yes, at least one teacher is on 60k. The teachers in my lads National school would all have 10/15 years experience, barring one. Other schools in my area would be similar.

Basically, the question you asked has been answered, all we are left with is what percentage.

Tbh, I don't have the time to look into how many have the relevant years experience needed and I don't think it is that simple. A teacher may be aware of the breakdown.

brianthebard wrote: »

What has this post got to do with anything? http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63278196&postcount=214

The average tells me absolutely nothing about the percentage of teachers earning 60k.




I posted that link myself earlier.

It tells a fair bit because there isn't a wide gap in the pay rates.

LordDorington

brianthebard wrote: »

This is what K-9 and others have been ignoring thus far.



I did not dismiss the website, I said your post did not answer the question, which it did not.

Ok fair enough point taken. I cnat remember what we are even arguing about tbh

brianthebard

K-9 wrote: »

Now, we are onto the usual side tracking and oneupmanship that takes over these threads. I'm assuming nothing, just posting the figures. You questioned, fairly, a poster about a statement that appeared like all teachers are on 60k.

You have assumed that with allowances a teacher on the 13 pay scale is on 60k or over. this can only be achieved by a number of allowances, otherwise a teacher has to wait til about the 20th scale to earn 60k.

You asked if even one teacher was on 60k.

I never asked 'if even one teacher was on 60k'. This was the original post on the topic;

brianthebard wrote: »

How many teachers are on 60 grand a year, as a percentage of the total teaching staff? According to the TUI it would be the top five pay grades which earn somewhere around there. http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html
Can you tell me how many earn 60 grand or are you just spouting nonsense?

The question was and is how many teachers are on 60k, which you have not answered nor tried to answer.

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

I think your assumption that all teachers are on doctorate allowances is a bit wrong headed. Again I'd like to see you show prove how many teachers as a percentage of the whole are on 60k,that was the question. I already posted a link to the wage scale, so there's no point suggesting I have ignored it.

They get over €5,000 for Masters degrees too.

brianthebard wrote: »

You have assumed that with allowances a teacher on the 13 pay scale is on 60k or over. this can only be achieved by a number of allowances, otherwise a teacher has to wait til about the 20th scale to earn 60k.

I didn't say on scale 13, I said after. With allowances, teachers can be paid 60k after pay scale 13.

brianthebard wrote:

I never asked 'if even one teacher was on 60k'. This was the original post on the topic;



The question was and is how many teachers are on 60k, which you have not answered nor tried to answer.

The initial part of the post I picked up on was:

brianthebard wrote:

If you're going to backpedal you should just take back your original remark altogether. You don't know if any teacher is on 60 grand, nor do you know the reasons why someone might be

It wasn't directed at me but I think people shouldn't throw around statements that all teachers are on 60k, we shouldn't ignore that teachers can get paid that amount and more. I think we now know some get 60k in certain circumstances. That's all I'm particularly interested in.

Anyway, here's a good article by Ronan Lyons:
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

And the average wages are €64,000 for men and €56,000 for women:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

brianthebard

K-9 wrote: »

It wasn't directed at me but I think people shouldn't throw around statements that all teachers are on 60k, we shouldn't ignore that teachers can get paid that amount and more. I think we now know some get 60k and the circumstances. That's all I'm particularly interested in.

I never suggested it wasn't possible, and posting the TUI scale which you objected to so vehemently was acknowledging that fact. However it is silly to suggest that all teachers are making anywhere near 60k, and I would like to know how many teachers earn 60k are a percentage of the entire teaching population. However it seems more important to most here to insult the entire public sector and make dismissive claims of exorbitant wages than to analysis the situation properly.

murphaph

S.L.F wrote: »

You are so precise, so what percentage of the CS is loads [admin]?

Dunno. What %age are skilled, non-administrative roles, seeing as you brought this element of the argument into this?

S.L.F wrote: »

This is a load of crap.

Allow me to demonstrate.

Here:
1998->2008 Pub.Sec: 29,536->49,006 (+19,470/66%)
1998->2008 Pri.Sec: 22,071->37,722 (+15,651/71%)

Diff in pay rise 1998->2008: 3,819....3819 as a precentage of the Public sector wage is 7.792%

2008->2018 Pub.Sec: 49,006->81,350 (+32,344/66%)
2008->2018 Pri.Sec: 37,722->64,505 (+26,783/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2008->2018: 5,561 (+1,742 more for the public servant)....5561 as a precentage of the public sector wage is going down to 6.836%

2018->2028 Pub.Sec: 81,350->135,041 (+53,691/66%)
2018->2028 Pri.Sec: 64,505->110,304(+45,799/71%)

Diff in pay rise 2018->2028: 7,892 (+2,331 more for the public servant)....7892 as a precentage of the Public sector wage is down further to 5.844%

If this keeps up according to your figures the Private sector will pass out the Public sector.

What has the difference in pay increase as a %age of the public sector worker's new pay got to do with it?

If I compare the diff in pay rise each decade to the private sector employee for the same timescale it also reduces as %age of his total income....obviously as his income is going UP the difference relative to his income falls: it's an irrelevant and meaningless figure which both public and private sector worker have in common (private sector would be 10.12%->8.62%->7.15%->etc.!!!). I'm not going to redo the analysis-everyone can see the pay increments for the public sector worker get bigger and bigger relative to the private sector worker every decade, so it's IMPOSSIBLE for the private sector worker to catch up/close the gap/whatever you want to say!

All you have to do is look at the lines on the graph DIVERGING with public sector pay increasing faster than private sector pay for the same time period. You don't even need to do a numerical analysis to see this. The public sector pay curve is steeper, therefore the rate of increase is more.

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

I never suggested it wasn't possible, and posting the TUI scale which you objected to so vehemently was acknowledging that fact. However it is silly to suggest that all teachers are making anywhere near 60k, and I would like to know how many teachers earn 60k are a percentage of the entire teaching population. However it seems more important to most here to insult the entire public sector and make dismissive claims of exorbitant wages than to analysis the situation properly.

I didn't object to it. Its just nit picking at this stage.

I added 2 links at the end of the last post to try and get the thread back on track!