Handguns for sporting purposes on The 6 O'clock Phone In show, Q102

Greenacre

This thread started with a discussion on Handguns for sporting purposes and has now degenerated into an argument about bows, arrows and spears!

Well done lads, well done!

dCorbus

Very good point, homerhop, thanks.
I accept that entirely - but this particular thread is not in the "hunting" subforum.
I do accept that hunting with ferrets, lurchers, etc. is often discussed in the hunting subforum and that's perfectly fine by me, no problem. It's when it spills over into the shooting part, it's what "worries" me, that's all.
But thanks for pointing out that flaw in my argument to me.:D

dCorbus

Thanks Greenacre,
Sorry for stoking the fires, so to speak.
I herewith remove myself from this discussion!:D
Thanks

homerhop

Greenacre wrote: »

This thread started with a discussion on Handguns for sporting purposes and has now degenerated into an argument about bows, arrows and spears!

Well done lads, well done!

Show me a thread on this forum that hasnt started on one subject and split off at a tangent.

rrpc

homerhop wrote: »

If thats the case dCorbus, do we no longer discuss ferrets, or lurchers? Should the hunting section of this forum be called hunting with guns only?

Good question homerhop, If in doubt, always have a look at the charter:

This forum is for the discussion of hunting related subjects, including techniques and equipment; in particular shooting as it pertains to hunting in Ireland. Discussion of current events is not within the scope of the forum, such discussions are to take place in the Shooting forum; such posts will be moved there without warning or appeal.

So it's mostly shooting but other hunting related subjects are also allowed, but in the hunting section.

And then there's also this:

Advocating, condoning or soliciting information about breaking the law is prohibited; this includes but is not limited to:
breaching conditions of a license or authorisation;
use of a firearm for any purpose for which it is not licensed;
avoidance of taxes and duties.

Draw your own conclusions, I'm not a mod.

Cass

To get back somewhat on topic lads, i believe that while forums such as these are important for shooters from every type of sports discipline (hunting, clays, target, fullbore, smallbore, etc) to talk to each other they are limited in their scope and effectiveness for educating the general public.

Allow me to elaborate. Whether it is your gun club, range, forum, or where ever you decide to meet and talk chances are you are talking to another member of either the same sporting discipline as yourself or from a different sporting discipline but its someone with similar interests and similar views. The people i meet with each weekend at the club or range have the same concerns, worries as me and understand the situation for the sports shooters in general. Its the non shooters that i have the problems with. It goes back to the lady at the start of the podcast. She wanted all firearms banned, she didn't know why and didn't want to listen to any reasons why some or all firearms should be allowed to be retained. She had her view and while entitled to it, it most likely came from a misunderstanding of firearms, the uses for them and the procedures and hoops sport shooters must jump through to get their firearms.

I put a bit of thought into this a few months ago and honestly my timing couldn't have been worse. I was talking about educating people on firearm usage in a time when people were more concerned with FCA1s, mods, restricted or not, security so i can understand why it recieved such little attention, but i feel now (although somewhat late) is the time to correct this situation. Start advertising in local papers. Stay local because people no matter how interested will not drive more than half an hour to try/view anything plus chances are if its local Joe Public will know/meet someone affiliated with the club/range and ask about it and then decide to go or not.

Hold open days. Advertise open days in the local papers and give people a week or two to come. Nominate a day (Sunday for example). Tell them tours of the facilities will start at 12noon. This gives the mass goers a chance to get to church and is not too early for the ones out the night before. Do not leave it too long after advertising as people will forget. No shooting for them but a viewing of the facilities. Start with a nominated person to meet the people. A quick introduction of the facilities and the disciplines they will see. Have an RO (Range Officer) designated to each discipline (if your club runs multiple disciplines). The TG (Tour Guide) will walk the people to each area and explain briefly what sport is shot here then hand it over to the RO to explain further and breast questions.

After the tour ends have refreshments set up in a designated area and have all ROs meet there at the end of the tour for a one on one question session with those of the tour party that have questions. Have leaflets prepared and application forms ready. Hand out a small goody bag with the information about the club, application forms and a few small bits and bobs.

This is not something that needs done every week/ forthnight or even month but run a few each year. Its not about drawing in members but to educate people on what we do and how strictly we govern ourselves. If a few new members come out of it all the better. The point of this exercise would be that the people you have just shown around will go home and tell others and even if some of them do not come for themselves they will ask the usual questions. "What do they do", "What was it like", etc. Education through dissemination.

To summarise, it is all well and fine talking amongst ourselves. Its healthy, informative and at times good craic. The problem we face is complaining to ourselves/others that already know what is wrong is just like running in circles. It is the general public we need to convince that we are sport people, that we love our sport and should not have to defend it against baseless accusations, that we are not a danger to the public, that we impose stricter rules and regulations through our clubs etc than is sometimes asked for by the Gardai, that at the end of it all we are normal everyday people that once a week, month whatever enjoy going to meet likeminded people in a safe and controlled environment to practise our sport.

Until measures like/similar to these are initiated i fear the illusions and misconceptions that people have towards firearm owners as a whole will not only fester but spread until we find ourselves in a corner with not only the Ministers attacking our sport but with the backing of the public. All of which, as you all know, will have no effect or bearing on criminals.

rrpc

Most of that's been done and still being done Ezridax. Most clubs and ranges are in rural areas and my experience is that they are well integrated into their areas and there's no mystery about shooting amongst the general population.

The problem is in the big urban centres where there are no clubs or ranges and therefore no exposure to them. For the vast majority of people in those centres, an open day would completely pass them by because the location would be outside their immediate area.

The UK has also tried to come to grips with this problem and they hold a National Shooting Week every year.

Have a look here for more information. It's probably the best way of raising consciousness among the general population.

Something we could work towards doing here.

newby.204

someone earlier mentioned vincent brown and getting pepole on to talk about shooting sports(all incl), another good talk show would be the afternoon shows run by rte and tv3 for women , get a few national level ladies on to talk about shooting sports in general(if they will agree to it) and a little but about their own discipline?????? there has to be a few people on here from clubs and shooting bodies who could set that up???

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

Most of that's been done and still being done Ezridax.

Where? When? By who? I run in the shooting circles and i'm not saying i know of every event big and small but its obviously on a low key or word of mouth as i haven't heard of anyone saying " i see *club name* are holding an open day for visitors this week". I've no reason to doubt you but if it is happening its not on a large enough scale as is indicated by peoples bias towards firearms.

Most clubs and ranges are in rural areas and my experience is that they are well integrated into their areas and there's no mystery about shooting amongst the general population.

People in the these areas will see or know of a club/range and know that shooting takes place there but there is a difference knowing what goes on and going and seeing the shooting. I can tell you over a dozen different spots for fishing, from what i heard and been told, but i still have never gone and watched people fishing.

The problem is in the big urban centres where there are no clubs or ranges and therefore no exposure to them. For the vast majority of people in those centres, an open day would completely pass them by because the location would be outside their immediate area.

I understand that, but its not like they are cut of from the rest of the country. No matter where you live there is most likely a range of some sort within an hours drive. Its not like i'm asking people to drive from Donegal to Cork.

The UK has also tried to come to grips with this problem and they hold a National Shooting Week every year.

Have a look here for more information. It's probably the best way of raising consciousness among the general population.

Something we could work towards doing here.

Exactly my point. Raise awareness, educate people try to turn some misunderstandings into realisation of what actually goes on.


I know some will dislike firearms in any shape or form and no amount of talking, showing or explaining will change their minds. These people are from one of two backrounds. Its been bred into them by someone (parent, etc) that had a dislike for firearms and passed their dislike onto them or from a ignorance about firearms in general on purely moral grounds. I'm not trying to advocate one type of sports shooting above another, getting people into the sport or at least to understand it is the main goal. Whether people took up the sport or not is still their decision, but once into the sport they will find one aspect of it they prefer above all others.

My thoughts in the previous post are most likely not original and they may not even be fully practical to put into action, but i would like to see a larger more public advertising of all sport shooting. I don't know, maybe i rambling or being nonsensical or trying to argue a point that is moot.

xesse

hey now relax a minute
bows are very popular in this country
i,ve had many bows over the years!!!:p

Greenacre wrote: »

This thread started with a discussion on Handguns for sporting purposes and has now degenerated into an argument about bows, arrows and spears!

Well done lads, well done!

Sparks

xesse wrote: »

hey now relax a minute
bows are very popular in this country
i,ve had many bows over the years!!!:p

As have I.
But we can drop this or I can close the thread. Every time this topic comes up, it goes pear-shaped and I'm sick of it.

dCorbus

Some great suggestions there, ezridax, rrpc, newbie.204

The UK has also tried to come to grips with this problem and they hold a National Shooting Week every year.

Have a look here for more information. It's probably the best way of raising consciousness among the general population.

This looks like a great idea - Maybe the SSAI and / or Others might want to take this on board. I'd be willing to help if needed! JC / DB pm me if you want.

A suggestion: Take it nice and easy with the PR - "softly softly catchee monkee":D
We cannot expect to persuade everyone of the virtues of our sports.
But....we can influence those sitting on the fence.

I can only speak from personal experience on this: As a very relative newbie to sports target shooting, about 6 months ago neither myself nor anyone I knew was involved or interested in shooting (or so I thought!).

Now, once I started discussing my newfound interest and sport with selected friends and relatives (Nothing to hide, but we all know that it is not wise to discuss shooting with some "acquaintances" for either security or personal-opinion reasons), I found out that a number of people I've known for over 5 years are already active participants in shooting in it's various forms, hunting, target, clays, etc.

Furthermore, I found a healthy minority of my friends, both male and female, were initially surprised to hear of my newfound "obsession", and secondly, they were then wondering how they might themselves "have a go" and "where could they try out shooting". Oh yeah...and they are all "city-folk"!:D

Only one friend was negative about the Whole Thing - and even she was more non-commital and vaguely uninterested than openly hostile. Just not her thing, I appreciate.

Now, if that's a small cross-section of society, should we not assume that all "non-shooters" are not actually negatively-biased against shooting sports? In fact, I would hazard the suggestion that with some good public relations and taking an educational / informative approach, we'll find that there are a lot more potential and future shooters out there. They just don't know where to find the information.

(An aside and friendly suggestion: Keep the various shooting organisations / clubs / ranges / etc websites nicely uptodate on a more regular basis;))

I know it's very hard for many shooters at the moment to see any positives in the current environment - But let's not always feel like we have to "circle the wagons". Not everyone hates us and what we get up to in our spare time!:D

There must be some good news stories we can tell the wider world about?! Competitions, Family Days, Juniors, International Events with an Irish involvement, Training Camps, etc., etc., - And: If the Press & Meeja won't work with us....well, now, "Welcome to the Internet, How can I help you?":D (Anyone tried Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Bebo, Myspace, Youtube, etc. etc. etc.?:))

Just some late-lunchtime food-for-thought!:)

Greenacre

Good stuff dCorbus!

Greenacre

We all appear to agree that the public perception of our sport needs a lot of work, how do we keep the momentum going now and create a plan (with clear attainable objectives) and have it implemented?

It is not my intention to upset or insult anybody that has volunteered to take on the role of P.R.O (representing any shooting discipline)to date, in fact they are to be commended for all the time and effort invested but maybe a fresh approach is required?

Maybe its an impossible task???

dCorbus

Maybe its an impossible task???

Thankless - undoubtably
Impossible - I doubt it

It is not my intention to upset or insult anybody that has volunteered to take on the role of P.R.O (representing any shooting discipline)to date, in fact they are to be commended for all the time and effort invested but maybe a fresh approach is required?

A fresh approach is not, or at least should not be, dependent on the individual tasked with the tricky job.:D

But certainly, whilst the NGB's are and have been working away in the background in relation to the current legislative situation, perhaps the collective "eye has been taken off the ball" in relation to "spreading the good word"? I don't know, because I haven't been around long enough to know what was or was not achieved before.

create a plan (with clear attainable objectives)

That would be a great approach and the only real way to getting anything achieved. Maybe there exists such a plan? Have to say, we don't know so we cannot say. Lots of good smart people involved in the organisational side of the shooting sports (from my limited exposure) - They're probably more than aware of this "public image issue", but at the moment, undoubtably have a hell of a lot more on their collective plate to deal with.

I really don't know how this agenda can be pushed forward - and can only hope that our P'sTB have longterm strategy in mind. And it will need to be long-term and very very subtle IMHO.:D

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

But certainly, whilst the NGB's are and have been working away in the background in relation to the current legislative situation, perhaps the collective "eye has been taken off the ball" in relation to "spreading the good word"? I don't know, because I haven't been around long enough to know what was or was not achieved before.

Some managed a little, some managed a lot, most took the view that publicity was bad and heads should be kept well down in the sand. That latter approach has worked quite well, if the intent was for us to be bitten on the posterior...

Basicly, PR requires PROs. If you want to see it happen dCorbus, you have to go all Ghandi on it and volunteer, help break the 2% rule.

That would be a great approach and the only real way to getting anything achieved. Maybe there exists such a plan?

There would have been on a per-NGB basis a few years ago. Cross-NGB plans that have come up over the past two decades however, are accurately, if not nicely, summarised as "get someone else to promote us so we get all the benefit and do none of the work".

If I learnt one thing doing the PRO job for the NTSA it's this - just do something. Everyone's going to moan and bitch anyway, regardless of what you do or don't do, so pick something and do it.

...and if I learnt two things, the second one was to get training in PR. The FIS run free courses for folks who want them, and there's a wealth of free stuff on the net to show you how to write press releases, how to write copy and so forth. It is not common sense, anyone can't just sit down and do it right the first time, and it is harder than it looks. And if it's radio or tv, it's even worse. You need to do a journalist's job for them for maximum success, and that means knowing what they do. So read, take the courses, learn how to do it. And then do it.

So basicly dCorbus, find out who your NGB is, and go volunteer.

dCorbus

Oh thanks Sparks!:D
Now you've put it up to me - what am I to do? Walk away? Step up to the mark?:D;)

You have a couple of good points there.
BTW What is this golden 2% rule you speak of?

Some managed a little, some managed a lot, most took the view that publicity was bad and heads should be kept well down in the sand. That latter approach has worked quite well, if the intent was for us to be bitten on the posterior...

Ok, so that's one agreed approach. Which may very well still be the overall NGB consensus. As I said, I don't feel informed or experienced enough to be pushing any one particular agenda or viewpoint - Just throwing ideas out there to see if anyone would like to run with them.

Basicly, PR requires PROs.

Indeed and it does:D. These are already in place and I wish them the best of luck and success - they have my wholehearted support in what must be a thankless job.

If you want to see it happen dCorbus, you have to go all Ghandi on it and volunteer, help break the 2% rule.

Sparks, you should know me and Gandhi have very little in common!;)
He'd less hair than me - and I've more padding than he!:D

Don't want anyone elses job! In a previous life: Been there, Done that, Bought the t-shirt.....Don't have the time or energy to do that particular job again. but....

That said, as I already mentioned in my earlier post here, I would be delighted to meet with any of the NGB PRO's (from all disciplines, even the ones I'm not involved with) either individually and / or collectively to "brainstorm" and get some fresh and novel ideas out there. I could even arrange for some freebie pro-bono professional PR advice.

So as I said, if any of the P'sTB want to take me up on my offer, just PM me. Or if there is anyone reading this closely connected to the PRO's, pass on my offer of assistance. I am happy to donate my "little grey cells" toward this exercise.:D

I am also happy to coordinate this with anyone else on here who may want to put forward productive ideas.

There, I did it! I've stepped up to the mark (What the hell am I thinking of!) - Now, someone come forward from the NGB's and accept or decline the offer.

(BTW and to make this absolutely clear: I am not being facetious, nor do I wish to denegrate the hardwork any member of the NGB's has been engaged in, nor do I think I know better as a johnny-come-lately, nor do I wish to "teach-my-granny-to-suck-eggs", and I've absolutely no hidden agenda nor axes-to-grind - I'm just trying to be helpful, so please take this offer at face value.:))

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

Oh thanks Sparks!:D
Now you've put it up to me - what am I to do? Walk away? Step up to the mark?:D;)

All I've done is put to you what you were putting to everyone else...

BTW What is this golden 2% rule you speak of?

That in our sport, 2% of the people wind up doing 98% of the work.
Sadly, that seems to be a maximum and we don't always get up to 2% of the people. Some have said I should just drop the percent symbol altogether, given the numbers we see at club level...

Ok, so that's one agreed approach. Which may very well still be the overall NGB consensus. As I said, I don't feel informed or experienced enough to be pushing any one particular agenda or viewpoint - Just throwing ideas out there to see if anyone would like to run with them.

Why do you feel uninformed or inexperienced? Do you see anyone out there who's doing this with remarkable success? No! Because everyone always thinks "oh, I don't know what I'm doing, they must be better at this than me" (except for the ones who think "feck it, if I do nothing, they'll do it for me"). Frankly, we could use more fresh blood coming in and trying things...

Indeed and it does:D. These are already in place

Not many and nowhere near enough, and wishes won't help them as much as help would...

Sparks, you should know me and Gandhi have very little in common!;)
He'd less hair than me - and I've more padding than he!:D

Nonetheless, be the change you want to see in the world...

Been there, Done that, Bought the t-shirt.....Don't have the time or energy to do that particular job again. but....

See, then you're the mouse suggesting that we bell the cat...

I could even arrange for some freebie pro-bono professional PR advice.

Excellent! Don't wait for the offer, just go do it! Call up a PRO and chase them!

There, I did it! I've stepped up to the mark (What the hell am I thinking of!) - Now, someone come forward from the NGB's and accept or decline the offer.

No, no, don't take that route
Go after them. There may not be a PRO in place, and if there is, they may be overworked. Send them an email. PRO@targetshootingireland.org for the NTSA, declan.byrne@ssai.ie for the SSAI, icpsa@eircom.net for the ICPSA. Not sure about the others.

G17

In summary :
2% = people who do things
98% = people who suggest things/complain about the 2%'s work

In my experience, we are offered lots of ideas but when met with the response "can you develop this idea for us", very fast running away happens very fastly.

Think of a meeting where 'work' has been suggested, then count the number of people holding shovels on the work day...:D

dCorbus

Sparks, maybe this could be split off to another thread - We're kinda going way off topic (or are we?)?:)

Think of a meeting where 'work' has been suggested, then count the number of people holding shovels on the work day...

PMSL - Can I nick that?:D

In my experience, we are offered lots of ideas but when met with the response "can you develop this idea for us", very fast running away happens very fastly.

Well, maybe a "working group" might be another good way to go - Spread the work-load and all that (Of course, with one project manager / point-of-contact, otherwise I have images of lots of headless chickens:D)

No, no, don't take that route
Go after them. There may not be a PRO in place, and if there is, they may be overworked. Send them an email. PRO@targetshootingireland.org for the NTSA, declan.byrne@ssai.ie for the SSAI, icpsa@eircom.net for the ICPSA. Not sure about the others.

Oh, ye of little faith!:D
One NGB has contacted me already! So fair play!
I'll chase up the rest then once I've put on my thinking-cap, if I don't hear from them.

Why do you feel uninformed or inexperienced?

Coz I am! Simples!:D
Only around a fecking wet week, I hear them say!:rolleyes:

Let's see how this goes - but have a warm fuzzy feeling about this!

Sparks, to get something tangible going - Your advice / approval as a MOD: Can I start a thread looking for good PR ideas? and if so, can you sticky it for a while, until further notice?

Then we can have everyone make productive and positive suggestions and give their own input into what might develop a life of it's own. No promises / no guarantees. But I know there are a rake of shooters on boards with some great ideas.

Let me know what you think?

dC

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

Oh, ye of little faith!:D

Oh me of much experience! :rolleyes:

Sparks, to get something tangible going - Your advice / approval as a MOD: Can I start a thread looking for good PR ideas? and if so, can you sticky it for a while, until further notice?

Start away!

dCorbus

Sparks, PM sent.

Oh me of much experience!

Yeah, I know - I'm probably on a hiding-to-nothing with this idea!
Bringing down a world of pain of my poor self!:rolleyes:

But, ah sure, god loves a tryer!:D

Cass

Fair play to you dcorbus. I like some lads do a bit whenever possible for club or range, i mean you get back what you put in right. I don't have the authority to do much more than i am doing but you at least are doing something. More power to you.

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

Bringing down a world of pain of my poor self!:rolleyes:

Welcome to a small and select group

But, ah sure, god loves a tryer!:D

She has to, no Irishman does...

dCorbus

I don't have the authority to do much more than i am doing but you at least are doing something.

I don't have the "authority" either - but what the hell, I'm gonna give it a try!:D Thanks.

Sikamick

dCorbus maybe I could make a suggestion if you don't mind, get a small group of active people from within the clubs to form a group, preferably people that are already doing PRO for their clubs.

If they are not available get people that are interested in putting your idea together, seek help and advice from the NGB'S and then go for it.

There are people within the clubs that would help you with this.

The sport has to let the general public know what we are about or it will die.

My Opinion only.

Best of luck.


Sikamick

dCorbus

Thanks Mick!

maybe I could make a suggestion if you don't mind

Absolutely!:D

get a small group of active people from within the clubs to form a group, preferably people that are already doing PRO for their clubs.

If they are not available get people that are interested in putting your idea together, seek help and advice from the NGB'S and then go for it

Another great idea! Thanks.

dCorbus

Lads y Ladies,

This is great stuff - getting some really productive and interesting ideas here and by PM. So thanks to all so far!:D

What I'm going to do shortly is post a thread where we can all post our productive ideas and suggestions. So hold fire for now:rolleyes:, if you can, and then we can post the good ideas on one thread, which I am hoping will become a sticky.

Should have this up in the next hour or so.

Thanks,

dC

Sikamick

dCorbus with respect, bring the people together, put your plans in place and into action and then post here, otherwise someone will try to shaft you.

my opinion only

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

dCorbus with respect, bring the people together, put your plans in place and into action and then post here, otherwise someone will try to shaft you.

my opinion only

Sikamick

That's awfully negative Mick, he's going to need lots of cooperation so hiding away won't benefit anyone.

Let's keep everything in the open please.