Flood Response

BigDuffman

Firstly, what exactly do the Civil Defence do? Is it not their job to respond to disasters like floods?

Secondly if the situation gets any worse over the weekend, I don't see why they wont use the Reserve units to help in sandbagging (dont even think about it..I know what your thinking ) and Tpt. efforts

Farmers are volunteering and using their tractors and JCBs. Surely it would justify spending money on keeping the Reserve active to have them out and working within the community.

I'm sure there are plenty of RDF lads that would volunteer their services FOC. to give people a dig out as the PDF already have their jobs.

hobochris

Its the civil Defenses job to provide support and extra units to the fire brigade in events like this.They wouldn't be as trained as the full time fire service but would take some of the pressure off of them.

iceage

No sign of RDF out and about in Clonmel, PDF were for sure, 4 tonners flying everywhere last night ferrying people and sandbags to the Old Bridge side of the river. Good idea for the RDF to pitch in though.

AAC chopper passing over as we speak..

Morpheus

civil defence have a water safety service that uses RIB's i believe? they are probably (can anyone verify) trained to deal with flood situations and inland waters safety procedures as well as pumping water etc in flood situations (this as part of the Aux Fire Service they provide).

Think there is supposedly 6000 members on paper?

Would like to think the PDF would mobilise reserves or at least at county level the councils might consider calling out the RDF to assist in whatever way they could, even if filling *cough* sandbags was all that was needed!!!

iceage

Agreed. If its good enough for the PDF to fill sandbags, and they have been over the last few days I'm told its good enough for the RDF I'm sure theres guys who would jump at the chance to help out. South Tipp. Civil Defence have a couple of RIB's out this morning....

Steyr

iceage wrote: »

AAC chopper passing over as we speak..

Oh you mean IAC not the UK Army Air Corps ( AAC ):p

iceage

Just spotted my mistake! Cheers for that mate.:)

Delancey

Purely as a matter of interest I was wondering do PDF get any extra pay , allowances or Per Diems , etc while working on flood relief or indeed any other type of civil emergency ?

BrianD

delancey42 wrote: »

Purely as a matter of interest I was wondering do PDF get any extra pay , allowances or Per Diems , etc while working on flood relief or indeed any other type of civil emergency ?

Why should they? What else would they be doing? My understanding is that the army is charged with the defence of the nation and as an aide to civil power.

If I'm an employee of a company and the boss needs to redeploy me temporarily then that's part of the gig.

concussion

Rates of Pay and Allowances for Enlisted Personnel of the Defence Forces
http://www.defence.ie/WebSite.nsf/eb9a86f46ada6f4280256c61003e1c58/eced65584861ba7680256c7e00421c7e/$FILE/ATTGAC4O/A.pdf

Hard Larry

delancey42 wrote: »

Purely as a matter of interest I was wondering do PDF get any extra pay , allowances or Per Diems , etc while working on flood relief or indeed any other type of civil emergency ?

No.

EDIT oops for some reason I thought you had meant stand-by for ATCA (drink is an awful thing)

Yes there is an ATCA allowance but it took nearly 2 years to pay it the last time there was heavy flooding and that was at the height of an economic boom, TBH I wouldn't be very confident of it getting paid this time around.

diverdriver

Frankly the RDF should be mobilised at this point but won't be. But I'm also surprised at the relatively few soldiers brought out. I suspect the reason is that we are simply not prepared for situations like this. If the RDF were brought out they would have to be supplied with waterproofs and boots etc. What are the chances of having them available? Practially none.

There has been a very poor response from the officialdom to this situation. It's not as if there is flooding all over the country but mostly in specific areas. I already noted over in the Galway forum that for example there were no Gardai, no council workers no one around ClareGalway yesterday while I was there. The only thing I saw an Air Corps helicopter who circled a few times then left. He seemed to be on a grand tour judging by iceage's comments.

God forbid if we ever had a disaster along the lines of Katrina in New Orleans. We couldn't cope.

Morpheus

Exactly my sentiments, Id have happily turned up to be shipped to galway, or given the need, have driven myself over to take part in a coordinated effort to assist people had the army requested it of me. im sure many more RDF personel would have easily given up their weekend to help the folks who've suffered and lost so much. its terrible, my friends live out there between craughwell and gort and although lucky enough to not be flooded, are neverthe less cut off as all roads around them are flooded. They are the now not so proud owners of a new island.

Manic Moran

It seems to me that unless the Army is entirely comitted, there is no need to call up reserves. Why the extra hassle and expense? I'm hearing of maybe 500 soldiers running around. That leaves another couple of thousand in the country to play with.

NTM

Poccington

Manic Moran wrote: »

It seems to me that unless the Army is entirely comitted, there is no need to call up reserves. Why the extra hassle and expense? I'm hearing of maybe 500 soldiers running around. That leaves another couple of thousand in the country to play with.

NTM

I wish someone would play with me while I'm in work.






:pac:

slapper

to be honest the fca should have been moblised and not as much as a phone call or anything
i'd have gladly gone out if asked
was told by someone they wanted to save money it cost nothing to bring up the reserves on field days unless its the intragrated

iceage

Four mates and myself, pitched up to offer our services on Friday night in Clonmel Civil Defence. I reckon they were genuinely shocked that we did. Left our names and numbers and told them no to be stuck if they ever needed a hand.

Skyhawk1990

slapper wrote: »

the fca should have been moblised

Good luck with that man, the FCA was demobilised years ago!

Back on topic, The RDF should be but on alert at least as the weather won't let up for a while and things will probably get worse. (watch now that I said that the weather will improve!:D) I'd happily go anywhere to help! Can't do anything because I'm in Dublin and college is ruining my life atm:)

BigDuffman

General consensus seems to be that the RDF is more than willing to do their bit free of charge in order to A) give a dig out and help where possible and justify our existance to Joe Public (and the powers that be).

Evd-Burner

all it would take for me to go would be for my cpl to give me a call...

We'd finally get to do something then has a direct result...

concussion

Things are getting pretty bad downstream of Lough Derg, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the phone rang.

Evd-Burner

well hopefully it does...

Morpheus

I think the governments response has not been good enough,

they should surely mobilise more volunteers to help out, surely there are thousands of houses effected?

is there anyway to judge the entire scale of this disaster?

Any sites that have categorised and estimated the damage done?

Is there any centralised place that is taking in all damage reports and assessing it properly - are people phoning a govt department and reporting what theyve lost - or do they deal directly with their insurance companies? if this is the case we may never know the true scale of things...

From the above is there any way to assess what needs to be done?

Ive mates living down in glaway AND cork and from what I hear they could do with many more hands to get things done on the ground at the minute, as it is i may be heading down to help clear out one house if asked.

I really think mobilising reserves would help... even voluntarily we could have put together AT THE MINIMUM 100 - 200 volunteers from the leinster region to send down for a few days, id have given up civvy holidays to help people out and damn the army if i didnt get paid for it.

as for the govt damage fund? a paltry 12 million euro?

thats pi$$ing against the wind just to be seen to do something.

people have LOST THEIR HOMES for chrissakes...

that fugly muppet cowen didnt even meet the real people on the ground when he went down in his wellies, he met county managers and emergency service personel and thats about it. A prime example of the non-active types trying to run this country into the ground - or down the drain in this case. pah... waster... modern ireland has been mauled by the celtic tiger and it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach ...

i think we were totally and utterly unprepared for this but the govt doesnt want people to know and that someone somewhere knew this would happen, and someones heads should roll but probably wont.

have their been any reports in the following format:

AREA : Tipperary
# Houses flooded: 1230
# people evacuated: 3400
Areas effected
Clonmel (700 homes)
Cashel (300 homes)
Fethard (230 homes)

etc.....

Local-womanizer

They were talking about the effects to farmers today on Newstalk,basically most of them are fecked now.No fodder to feed their animals,many of them washed away and they cant even milk their cattle. The scale of the damage this will do is unimaginable they are saying.

Cant even to begin to imagine what the people are going through down there.I suppose thats the upside of living in the hills of Donegal.

Poccington

Local-womanizer wrote: »

They were talking about the effects to farmers today on Newstalk,basically most of them are fecked now.No fodder to feed their animals,many of them washed away and they cant even milk their cattle. The scale of the damage this will do is unimaginable they are saying.

Cant even to begin to imagine what the people are going through down there.I suppose thats the upside of living in the hills of Donegal.

There is no upside to living in Donegal.

Local-womanizer

Poccington wrote: »

There is no upside to living in Donegal.

Jealousy!The rest of the country is far too flat for my liking,nowhere to sneak up on people:p

slapper

Skyhawk1990 wrote: »

Good luck with that man, the FCA was demobilised years ago!

habbit

Jo King

The PDF have enough to cope with, dealing with the floods besides minding RDF personnel. The RDF would have to be rounded up, given equipment, transported to the flooded areas, provided with accommodation and catering, with care taken that they do not injure themselves, get drunk on their time off and generally make a nuisance of themselves. Calling for volunteers from the RDF is a poor idea. It would be necessary to call on a unit with training and equipment. It is most unlikely that if volunteers were sought, that there would be a reasonable number of senior NCO's and officers available. Given that the flood may only last a short number of days it would be counter-productive to have the PDF engaged in handling them when they should be dealing with the floods.
It is another question as to why units of the RDF cannot be mobilised at short notice and contribute effectively when there is a need.

BrianD

Morphéus wrote: »

I think the governments response has not been good enough,

they should surely mobilise more volunteers to help out, surely there are thousands of houses effected?

is there anyway to judge the entire scale of this disaster?

Any sites that have categorised and estimated the damage done?

Is there any centralised place that is taking in all damage reports and assessing it properly - are people phoning a govt department and reporting what theyve lost - or do they deal directly with their insurance companies? if this is the case we may never know the true scale of things...

From the above is there any way to assess what needs to be done?

Ive mates living down in glaway AND cork and from what I hear they could do with many more hands to get things done on the ground at the minute, as it is i may be heading down to help clear out one house if asked.

I really think mobilising reserves would help... even voluntarily we could have put together AT THE MINIMUM 100 - 200 volunteers from the leinster region to send down for a few days, id have given up civvy holidays to help people out and damn the army if i didnt get paid for it.

as for the govt damage fund? a paltry 12 million euro?

thats pi$$ing against the wind just to be seen to do something.

people have LOST THEIR HOMES for chrissakes...

that fugly muppet cowen didnt even meet the real people on the ground when he went down in his wellies, he met county managers and emergency service personel and thats about it. A prime example of the non-active types trying to run this country into the ground - or down the drain in this case. pah... waster... modern ireland has been mauled by the celtic tiger and it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach ...

i think we were totally and utterly unprepared for this but the govt doesnt want people to know and that someone somewhere knew this would happen, and someones heads should roll but probably wont.

have their been any reports in the following format:

AREA : Tipperary
# Houses flooded: 1230
# people evacuated: 3400
Areas effected
Clonmel (700 homes)
Cashel (300 homes)
Fethard (230 homes)

etc.....

There is no national disaster. We have particularly bad flooding in the mid west and south.

The government response is appropriate and the response is at a regional level as it should be. The role of central government is supervisory rather than coalface. This is why we have local authorities, local civil defence etc. I can't see how it could be run any differently. Having somebody sitting in an office in Dublin cannot direct operations at a remote location.

When it comes to flooding it would be my opinion that very little is going to stop a deluge. You can sandbag away but you are only slowing down nature. It's an unfortunate fact of life that many of the houses affected are built on flood plains are on one off housing. There is little that can be done for the flood plains and one off housing means that emergency resources get dispersed over wide areas.

Whatever you say about the current government, and I'm not a fan, you can't blame them for the rain and I think the response is appropriate, It's perfectly understandly that some one who has had their home destroyed would be looking for someone to blame and that something more can be done,

The reality is that we rarely have these extremes of weather but even in countries that do, the most organised response and planning can be wiped out. We saw it in the USA - where a first world city like New Orleans was sent back to the third world and large parts of it still haven't recovered. That's in a country that put a man on the moon.

BigDuffman

Jo King wrote: »

The PDF have enough to cope with, dealing with the floods besides minding RDF personnel. The RDF would have to be rounded up, given equipment, transported to the flooded areas, provided with accommodation and catering, with care taken that they do not injure themselves, get drunk on their time off and generally make a nuisance of themselves. Calling for volunteers from the RDF is a poor idea. It would be necessary to call on a unit with training and equipment. It is most unlikely that if volunteers were sought, that there would be a reasonable number of senior NCO's and officers available. Given that the flood may only last a short number of days it would be counter-productive to have the PDF engaged in handling them when they should be dealing with the floods.
It is another question as to why units of the RDF cannot be mobilised at short notice and contribute effectively when there is a need.

I usually dont rise to "bagger baiting" but that comment is absolutely ridiculous....a black beret does not mean you can fill a sandbag any better than someone wearing a green one. And a green one does not in anyway lower my IQ level to the point where I would be too busy splashing round in puddles and getting drunk so as that I couldn't help out. As of course the second we put on a green beret our degrees, civvie street skill sets (some particularly relevant in this situation) and sense of self respect become obsolete and we are nothing but monkeys.

Your stupid comments about RDF having to be handled like some special needs kid on work experience are infuriating or "rounded up" like sheep.

I can take any comment regarding military training and ability on the chin as yes the PDF are professional soldiers. But the condescending bullsh*t of having to mind us, so as that the poor little lambs don't get hurt is typical tripe spouted by muppets who think their occupation makes them superman.

What special training did you receive in filling sandbags, moving things giving out water and generally pitching in? Is this some new module thought by the ARW after you complete your underwater knife fighting course?

Point noted about the accommodation...but no-one mentioned dragging people from Donegal to help in Cork. Use RDF people from Cork.

Catering, are the RDF not good enough to eat from the same hotlocks as your almighty self? The expenditure for a few extra breasts of chicken for the curry is hardly going to be massive.

Equipment..most of the pics I have seen the lads are wearing nothing more than rain gear or DPM. Some wearing non-issue waders / gaiters. Where you issued flood resistant panties that I have not been informed about.

The only semblance of reason in your entire point is that the situation probably would not warrant such a need for the reserves to be called upon.

This is not and RDF vs PDF rant.

The only point I want to make is that if asked a lot of members of the reserve would give up their free time to help and would not expect pay to ironically fill sandbags.

Manic Moran

if asked a lot of members of the reserve would give up their free time to help and would not expect pay to ironically fill sandbags.

If they get hurt whilst putting on their DPMs and volunteering their time, who is responsible for the medical bills? What if it's a serious injury (say their leg gets chopped off by the popellor of an outboard motor), is it still the problem of the private health insurer (If the troop has one), or does the State end up paying the disability?

They should either be on duty status, or not be involved at all.

NTM

BigDuffman

A fair point, but that is not for the likes of me to decide upon. As the grey area between volunteer and part time worker does tend to blur.

We could as easily break our legs on a parade night doing tactics. Obviously a flood is a much more hazzardous environment. I do not know much about the civil defence or how they operate but should we not have the same cover as they would? Being state volunteers?

TripleXXX

BigDuffman wrote: »

A fair point, but that is not for the likes of me to decide upon. As the grey area between volunteer and part time worker does tend to blur.

We could as easily break our legs on a parade night doing tactics. Obviously a flood is a much more hazzardous environment. I do not know much about the civil defence or how they operate but should we not have the same cover as they would? Being state volunteers?

I didn't see the Civil Defense out helping on the news, surely they were involved ? Terrible situation for the people down the country, still at least no fatalities.

iceage

http://www.civildefence.ie/cdweb.nsf/documents/708EA8794B5C603F8025767400583905

http://www.civildefence.ie/cdweb.nsf/documents/80BE16B3B014EAC58025767800382083

I think one or two of them might have been present.

concussion

BigDuffman wrote: »

I usually dont rise to "bagger baiting" but that comment is absolutely ridiculous....a black beret does not mean you can fill a sandbag any better than someone wearing a green one. And a green one does not in anyway lower my IQ level to the point where I would be too busy splashing round in puddles and getting drunk so as that I couldn't help out. As of course the second we put on a green beret our degrees, civvie street skill sets (some particularly relevant in this situation) and sense of self respect become obsolete and we are nothing but monkeys.

Your stupid comments about RDF having to be handled like some special needs kid on work experience are infuriating or "rounded up" like sheep.

I can take any comment regarding military training and ability on the chin as yes the PDF are professional soldiers. But the condescending bullsh*t of having to mind us, so as that the poor little lambs don't get hurt is typical tripe spouted by muppets who think their occupation makes them superman.

What special training did you receive in filling sandbags, moving things giving out water and generally pitching in? Is this some new module thought by the ARW after you complete your underwater knife fighting course?

Point noted about the accommodation...but no-one mentioned dragging people from Donegal to help in Cork. Use RDF people from Cork.

Catering, are the RDF not good enough to eat from the same hotlocks as your almighty self? The expenditure for a few extra breasts of chicken for the curry is hardly going to be massive.

Equipment..most of the pics I have seen the lads are wearing nothing more than rain gear or DPM. Some wearing non-issue waders / gaiters. Where you issued flood resistant panties that I have not been informed about.

The only semblance of reason in your entire point is that the situation probably would not warrant such a need for the reserves to be called upon.

This is not and RDF vs PDF rant.

The only point I want to make is that if asked a lot of members of the reserve would give up their free time to help and would not expect pay to ironically fill sandbags.

Absolutely fantastic post. WRT injuries sustained, they would most likely have to pay and recoup it from the DoD. One of our NCO's received a pretty serious facial injury on FTT. She required repeated visits to a specialist and had to present a bill for med expenses. Totally arseways method of doing it, but at least she got here money back

Manic Moran

One of our NCO's received a pretty serious facial injury on FTT

Full time training?

It's not just the medical side. How responsible is an individual volunteer to anyone else? Can he/she be ordered to do something whilst volunteering? Is the Army required to feed that person? If so, why isn't the Army required to feed volunteers who don't have DPMs in their closet?

Better to either put them on paid status, or leave them alone. Weekly training is slightly different, it's part of the expectation of joining up.

NTM

concussion

The distinction would be (in my opinion) that if I turned up in DPM's without being requested and suffered an injury I think I'd be on my own. However, if my unit was formally tasked with providing bodies and I was called and asked to come in voluntarily to provide services I would be on a recognised day of training, or field day, or whatever it would be called. I don't see it being any different to any unpaid field days we do over the year - unpaid, rationed and covered for injuries sustained.

FTT - full time training, my apologies.

Jo King

BigDuffman wrote: »

I usually dont rise to "bagger baiting" but that comment is absolutely ridiculous....a black beret does not mean you can fill a sandbag any better than someone wearing a green one. And a green one does not in anyway lower my IQ level to the point where I would be too busy splashing round in puddles and getting drunk so as that I couldn't help out. As of course the second we put on a green beret our degrees, civvie street skill sets (some particularly relevant in this situation) and sense of self respect become obsolete and we are nothing but monkeys.

Your stupid comments about RDF having to be handled like some special needs kid on work experience are infuriating or "rounded up" like sheep.

I can take any comment regarding military training and ability on the chin as yes the PDF are professional soldiers. But the condescending bullsh*t of having to mind us, so as that the poor little lambs don't get hurt is typical tripe spouted by muppets who think their occupation makes them superman.

What special training did you receive in filling sandbags, moving things giving out water and generally pitching in? Is this some new module thought by the ARW after you complete your underwater knife fighting course?

Point noted about the accommodation...but no-one mentioned dragging people from Donegal to help in Cork. Use RDF people from Cork.

Catering, are the RDF not good enough to eat from the same hotlocks as your almighty self? The expenditure for a few extra breasts of chicken for the curry is hardly going to be massive.

Equipment..most of the pics I have seen the lads are wearing nothing more than rain gear or DPM. Some wearing non-issue waders / gaiters. Where you issued flood resistant panties that I have not been informed about.

The only semblance of reason in your entire point is that the situation probably would not warrant such a need for the reserves to be called upon.

This is not and RDF vs PDF rant.

The only point I want to make is that if asked a lot of members of the reserve would give up their free time to help and would not expect pay to ironically fill sandbags.

This attitude shows exactly why the RDF should not be called out. You are referring to yourself as an individual all the time. This is amateur. Of course, the reason is that you cannot put a unit together to do a job. You want to wander up on your own to an organised unit, the mebers of which no nothing about you and "pitch in". There are no reports of any shortage of personnel shortage of people to fill sandbags. The RDF members in the affected areas may well be affected by flooding themselves, and if not, they have ample opportunity to help out in their civilian capacity. There is no need for them to play soldiers to do this.

You are concentrating solely on the edibility and the cost of the food. It shows how little you know. Do you know how much paperwork is involved? PDF members would be filling in forms for months afterwards all for a few days "help" from the RDF.
If some use were to be made of the RDF, the better thing to do would be to employ them on guard duties, and the like in Dublin and the Curragh and send the PDF members thuis released to the flooded areas.

concussion

No-one's suggesting that Reservists just turn up at the floodwaters in their DPM's - I addressed that in my prior post. Paperwork? That's the whole reason RDF have Cadre staff. Also, sending Reservists to the Curragh or elsewhere to do guard duties would require paperwork - ration indents, accomodation if doing more than one duty, pay, transport yadda yadda.

Your suggestion to send Reservists to Dublin and the Curragh in order to sent PDF to affected areas will probably be taken up the miltary authorities - it would make perfect sense to transport troops from other parts of the country and billet them locally when there are plenty of troops, PDF and RDF, ALREADY IN the affected areas.

Conversely, local troops are already in location, know the area and can go home in the evening so no accomodation issues.

Jo King

concussion wrote: »

No-one's suggesting that Reservists just turn up at the floodwaters in their DPM's - I addressed that in my prior post. Paperwork? That's the whole reason RDF have Cadre staff. Also, sending Reservists to the Curragh or elsewhere to do guard duties would require paperwork - ration indents, accomodation if doing more than one duty, pay, transport yadda yadda.

Your suggestion to send Reservists to Dublin and the Curragh in order to sent PDF to affected areas will probably be taken up the miltary authorities - it would make perfect sense to transport troops from other parts of the country and billet them locally when there are plenty of troops, PDF and RDF, ALREADY IN the affected areas.

Conversely, local troops are already in location, know the area and can go home in the evening so no accomodation issues.

Local troops will be busy enough combatting the floods themselves. Bringing in RDF at all into such a situation means a decision has to be made as to whether or not there is going to be a compulsory call out. That means employed members, students and self-employed and those with domestic responsibilities would be seriously affected. ASking for volunteers means that it is only those unemployed or in a position to leave their jobs who would volunteer. The issue would arise as to payment. Would they be entitled to the dole while working? No one knows how many would volunteer. There would be no chance of securing volunteers in any kind of formation. It would be a question of asking for expressions of interest from potential volunteers. The unprecedented nature of doing this means negotiations with the civil servants to agree on the terms. After the terms are agreed, if ever, volunteers have to be sought. After the names of volunteers are become known an analysis has to be made as to what can be done with them. After that they could be given something to do. It would all take far to long with no knowing whether it would be useful or not. The RDF is a parasite force. It can only operate when hosted by the PDF. In this situation the overheads for the PDF would be enormous, even making a feasibility study. The benefits are to say the least questionable. Any RDF member living in an affected area has all the opportunities they need to help out, without putting their green cap on.

McArmalite

Jo King wrote: »

Local troops will be busy enough combatting the floods themselves. Bringing in RDF at all into such a situation means a decision has to be made as to whether or not there is going to be a compulsory call out. That means employed members, students and self-employed and those with domestic responsibilities would be seriously affected. ASking for volunteers means that it is only those unemployed or in a position to leave their jobs who would volunteer. The issue would arise as to payment. Would they be entitled to the dole while working? No one knows how many would volunteer. There would be no chance of securing volunteers in any kind of formation. It would be a question of asking for expressions of interest from potential volunteers. The unprecedented nature of doing this means negotiations with the civil servants to agree on the terms. After the terms are agreed, if ever, volunteers have to be sought. After the names of volunteers are become known an analysis has to be made as to what can be done with them. After that they could be given something to do. It would all take far to long with no knowing whether it would be useful or not. The RDF is a parasite force. It can only operate when hosted by the PDF. In this situation the overheads for the PDF would be enormous, even making a feasibility study. The benefits are to say the least questionable. Any RDF member living in an affected area has all the opportunities they need to help out, without putting their green cap on.

The poor old RDF don't seem to have chaged much since I was in it. Maybe it should be trained and operated along where possible, on the lines of the National Guard in America ?

concussion

There's quite a simple solution to all of that. Pay the Reservists. Expressions of interest have already been received by units. I don't understand what terms need to be negotiated with civil servants etc etc.

"Cpl Concussion, are you still available for days next week? Good, see you 0800 on Monday, we have you down for four days. You will be Guard Commander on Tuesday. The other day's you'll probably be filling sandbags or setting up safari beds in shelters/ You will be reporting to X from Y Bn who are lead unit. Bring a spare pair of socks."

Bringing in RDF at all into such a situation means a decision has to be made as to whether or not there is going to be a compulsory call out.

No it doesn't - if RDF personnel are asked to help that's all well and good. If RDF don't turn up, and the situation is so dire as to warrant a huge number of relief workers then the Minister may direct that Reservists be called out for ATCP (section 90 of the Defence Act, and different to Sec 87/88 which covers RDF being called out on permanant service). I don't think that will happen because then you are ordering Reservists out of the jobs etc. Looking for small numbers to help out does not equate to a decision on a call out.


McArmalite - we've been saying the same for years. More screening for recruits, proper (longer) training, fitness assesments etc etc. There is no political will.

McArmalite

concussion wrote: »

There's quite a simple solution to all of that. Pay the Reservists. Expressions of interest have already been received by units. I don't understand what terms need to be negotiated with civil servants etc etc.

"Cpl Concussion, are you still available for days next week? Good, see you 0800 on Monday, we have you down for four days. You will be Guard Commander on Tuesday. The other day's you'll probably be filling sandbags or setting up safari beds in shelters/ You will be reporting to X from Y Bn who are lead unit. Bring a spare pair of socks."



No it doesn't - if RDF personnel are asked to help that's all well and good. If RDF don't turn up, and the situation is so dire as to warrant a huge number of relief workers then the Minister may direct that Reservists be called out for ATCP (section 90 of the Defence Act, and different to Sec 87/88 which covers RDF being called out on permanant service). I don't think that will happen because then you are ordering Reservists out of the jobs etc. Looking for small numbers to help out does not equate to a decision on a call out.


McArmalite - we've been saying the same for years. More screening for recruits, proper (longer) training, fitness assesments etc etc. There is no political will.

" There's quite a simple solution to all of that. Pay the Reservists. " Interesting ( though I don't see it happen especially when the banks etc have nearly bankrupted the country ). When the National Guard in America are invovled in an emergengcy ( New Orleans floods 2 or 3 years ago for eg) or do weekend trianing, are they paid for it ?

Jo King

concussion wrote: »

There's quite a simple solution to all of that. Pay the Reservists. Expressions of interest have already been received by units. I don't understand what terms need to be negotiated with civil servants etc etc.

Of course you don't. The rate of pay for one. The overall budget for another. Approval for any other expenditure consequent on the operation. Decisions would have to be made on how rations were to be organised and how additional supplies were to be procured and secured. The local PDF would have to make a submission to GHQ that they are short of personnel for this operation. GHQ would have to decide that the only way to get personnel was to seek volunteers from the RDF. GHQ would have to make a business case to the DOD. Then approval would have to be sought from the Dept. of Finance. Alternative means of securing labour would have to be considered. E.G. why not have temporary labourers employed by the Local Authorities in each area carry out the sandbag filling? All of that would take weeks.
The flood would have long subsided by the time all of that was agreed. In the meantime considerable effort by a number of officers of the PDF would have been expended.

concussion

Whether they are or they aren't, it doesn't matter, it's a different country. My point is, that by paying Reservists (who have agreed to do some days) to turn up for military work (in the role of ATCP duties), there is much less to worry about in terms of social welfare payments, personal injury etc etc. Hell, they can pay me to turn up in barracks and fill sandbags for months if they require a sandbag filler and I've (a) agreed to it or (b) said no but been called up under section 87, 88 or 90 of the Defence Act.

To those who say we are not trained enough yadda yadda, I don't think anyone here is looking to jump into a RHIB and save grannies from rising flood waters. We are saying that, if more manpower is required, we are happy to volunteer our time for free (though being paid clears up a lot of grey areas) in order to fill sandbags, stand barrack guard, unload trucks, set up beds in emergency shelters, make tea for grannies and any other task which needs to be done.

Further to this, I guarantee that lots of Reservists are already out there in civvies doing what they can for their communities.

concussion

Jo King wrote: »

Of course you don't. The rate of pay for one. The overall budget for another. Approval for any other expenditure consequent on the operation. Decisions would have to be made on how rations were to be organised and how additional supplies were to be procured and secured. The local PDF would have to make a submission to GHQ that they are short of personnel for this operation. GHQ would have to decide that the only way to get personnel was to seek volunteers from the RDF. GHQ would have to make a business case to the DOD. Then approval would have to be sought from the Dept. of Finance. Alternative means of securing labour would have to be considered. E.G. why not have temporary labourers employed by the Local Authorities in each area carry out the sandbag filling? All of that would take weeks.
The flood would have long subsided by the time all of that was agreed. In the meantime considerable effort by a number of officers of the PDF would have been expended.

So what you're saying is, that if the floods get worse and the PDF can no longer cope with working 24/7 to stem the tide, they are going to spend a few weeks organising civvy labourers to help out?

Edit - mandays will have been allocated to each formation for the current training year. The budget is there for, probably (given the current situation), one weeks FTT per Reservist. That's about 40,000 mandays at a conservative estimate. Those days don't have to be used for mil training, ATCP is a perfectly valid use for them.

Jo King

concussion wrote: »

W We are saying that, if more manpower is required, we are happy to volunteer our time for free (though being paid clears up a lot of grey areas) in order to fill sandbags, stand barrack guard, unload trucks, set up beds in emergency shelters, make tea for grannies and any other task which needs to be done.

Further to this, I guarantee that lots of Reservists are already out there in civvies doing what they can for their communities.

You might be happy to do it. That does not make it a good idea. It would be a major hassle for the PDF to facilitate it. If Reservists are already doing it in civvies, why do they feel the need to do it in uniform.
If you want to play soldiers or play at filling sandbags, why not try your local creche? They should be well able to facilitate you at night and at the weekends.

concussion

More RDF doing menial work in barracks = more PDF splashing though floodwaters, stacking sandbags, evacuating families and building up earthworks. It's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see that.

As for the creche, why would it be open at night? :rolleyes:

Jo King

concussion wrote: »

More RDF doing menial work in barracks = more PDF splashing though floodwaters, stacking sandbags, evacuating families and building up earthworks. It's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see that.

As for the creche, why would it be open at night? :rolleyes:

More RDF in barracks = more administrative and financial problems for PDF personnel. The pain is not worth the gain. It clearly is a huge stretch of the imagination to see that.

concussion

More so than running a weapons course, or a tactical weekend, or continuation training? Good Lord, how do the PDF handle it in the summer when every unit in the country is training over a 4 month range???? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Jo King

concussion wrote: »

More so than running a weapons course, or a tactical weekend, or continuation training? Good Lord, how do the PDF handle it in the summer when every unit in the country is training over a 4 month range???? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

It is all planned for and budgeted months in advance. Everything is agreed with the civil servants long before any of it happens.It imposes a serious load on the PDF, but nothing that can't be handled given that it is all pre-planned. Nothing has been planned or arranged for something like a flood. The primary bodies responsible for flood clean ups are the local authorities. The military only provide assistance within their own capacity. They do not recruit civillian labourers. There are many unemployed people living in the flooded areas. The local council can employ them if necessary. Ther eis no need for the military to work 24/7. No money has been provided in this years budget for any flood related work. All expenditure has to be approved by the civil servants. It is quite likely that any additional costs arising from the flood relief, such as subsistence will come out of next years budget.