Flood Response

concussion

Costs will probably come out of next years budget - did I not just say the same thing? The military come in when the Local Authorities cannot provide any more help. As you said, or alluded, in you concerns over using RDF, it will take weeks to employ civvy labourers to help...so tell me, what happens in the mean time while you're waiting for LA's to be provided funding to hire labourers? Does everyone sit around and wait, or do they use Reservists who are ready to help and who have a training budget?

Jo King

concussion wrote: »

Costs will probably come out of next years budget - did I not just say the same thing? The military come in when the Local Authorities cannot provide any more help. As you said, or alluded, in you concerns over using RDF, it will take weeks to employ civvy labourers to help...so tell me, what happens in the mean time while you're waiting for LA's to be provided funding to hire labourers? Does everyone sit around and wait, or do they use Reservists who are ready to help and who have a training budget?

I said it would take weeks to get reservists to assist, and be very costly from an admin point of view for the PDF. There is absolutely no suggestion from anyone that there is a labour shortage. The local councils can recruit local labour within hours if necessary.

concussion

Jo King wrote: »

I said it would take weeks to get reservists to assist, and be very costly from an admin point of view for the PDF. There is absolutely no suggestion from anyone that there is a labour shortage. The local councils can recruit local labour within hours if necessary.

Hold on a minute - you're saying that it would take weeks to get RDF onboard with flood relief but earlier on you said this

Jo King wrote: »

If some use were to be made of the RDF, the better thing to do would be to employ them on guard duties, and the like in Dublin and the Curragh and send the PDF members thuis released to the flooded areas.

So which is it? The effort of getting Reservist in to stand guard is the same as that required to fill sandbags. More even, seeing as you have to issue weapons and ammunition.

Jo King wrote: »

There is absolutely no suggestion from anyone that there is a labour shortage.

Seeing as I'm someone, I take it I'm lumped in with 'anyone'. Good. You're entirely correct, I haven't suggested that the PDF are overwhelmed with work. Any of the posts made by Reservists have been saying they would be happy to help if needed.

Jo King

concussion wrote: »

Hold on a minute - you're saying that it would take weeks to get RDF onboard with flood relief but earlier on you said this



So which is it? The effort of getting Reservist in to stand guard is the same as that required to fill sandbags. More even, seeing as you have to issue weapons and ammunition.



Seeing as I'm someone, I take it I'm lumped in with 'anyone'. Good. You're entirely correct, I haven't suggested that the PDF are overwhelmed with work. Any of the posts made by Reservists have been saying they would be happy to help if needed.

There is already a mechanism for the RDF to do guard duties. There is none for any flood relief work. The effort is entirely different. Getting the RDF to do guard duties creates no issues about supervision, accommodation, transport etc.
Reservists can go to the flooded areas if they wish and offer to help. What people posting here want is to do it in uniform. Effectively they want to use the flood to play soldiers.

concussion

Jo King wrote: »

There is already a mechanism for the RDF to do guard duties. There is none for any flood relief work. The effort is entirely different. Getting the RDF to do guard duties creates no issues about supervision, accommodation, transport etc.
Reservists can go to the flooded areas if they wish and offer to help. What people posting here want is to do it in uniform. Effectively they want to use the flood to play soldiers.

Actually, I've been saying from the start that RDF could help by doing barrack work, please read my posts in their entirity.

concussion wrote: »

More RDF doing menial work in barracks = more PDF splashing though floodwaters, stacking sandbags, evacuating families and building up earthworks. It's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see that.

concussion wrote: »

To those who say we are not trained enough yadda yadda, I don't think anyone here is looking to jump into a RHIB and save grannies from rising flood waters. We are saying that, if more manpower is required, we are happy to volunteer our time for free (though being paid clears up a lot of grey areas) in order to fill sandbags, stand barrack guard, unload trucks, set up beds in emergency shelters, make tea for grannies and any other task which needs to be done.

Manic Moran

McArmalite wrote: »

When the National Guard in America are invovled in an emergengcy ( New Orleans floods 2 or 3 years ago for eg) or do weekend trianing, are they paid for it ?

Yes.

When I got called up for wildfire duty, my unit was basically the State Reserve. We spent six days sitting in the armoury waiting to be dispatched somewhere. We were never used. I got paid about $1000 for my time, and food. Of course, I didn't get my civilian pay.

NTM

Jo King

Manic Moran wrote: »

Yes.

When I got called up for wildfire duty, my unit was basically the State Reserve. We spent six days sitting in the armoury waiting to be dispatched somewhere. We were never used. I got paid about $1000 for my time, and food. Of course, I didn't get my civilian pay.

NTM

So calling up the reserve was a waste of time and money. All very well for the USA. We can't afford it.

Manic Moran

I said my unit were the State Reserve, not that the reserves weren't used. Over a thousand Guardsmen were called up, most were sent to fight fires, aid the police in law enforcement, what-have-you, but our little batch of 60 were being held back to be rapidly dispatched to wherever the next problem occurred. A small insurance policy is rarely a waste of money.

NTM

BigDuffman

Jo King wrote: »

This attitude shows exactly why the RDF should not be called out. You are referring to yourself as an individual all the time. This is amateur.

Not making much sense there my man, How exactly do I refer to "myself" all the time?????? I am a reservist and I am stating my opinion. I do not have a disorder where by I need to refer to myself in the 3rd person I also don't speak for the entire reserve. And reading through the post I dont see much to support this either?

Jo King wrote: »

You are concentrating solely on the edibility and the cost of the food. It shows how little you know. Do you know how much paperwork is involved?

And that one statement sums up pretty much what I've come to expect from those misfortunate enough to possess the storeman mao syndrome that wraps up any form of progress due to red tape, beaurocracy and lazy pencil pushers.

Jo King wrote: »

If you want to play soldiers or play at filling sandbags, why not try your local creche? They should be well able to facilitate you at night and at the weekends.

Yes because like you said in your earlier idiotic comment the only reason a reservist would want to do this is to play soldiers and get to wear the uniform in public......then get drunk and fall in a puddle...nothing to do with a sense of wanting to do something to help, or public justification of the reserves existence. With talk of creches you should definitely either check yourself in or grow up.

Jo King

BigDuffman wrote: »

Not making much sense there my man, How exactly do I refer to "myself" all the time?????? I am a reservist and I am stating my opinion. I do not have a disorder where by I need to refer to myself in the 3rd person I also don't speak for the entire reserve. And reading through the post I dont see much to support this either?

What good is one individual. Military activity is a group activity. Simply saying I, as an individual, am willing to help is useless. Can you put together any kind of a formation, properly led and equipped, capable of doing a job? No you can't. You need the PDF to do it for you.

BigDuffman wrote: »

And that one statement sums up pretty much what I've come to expect from those misfortunate enough to possess the storeman mao syndrome that wraps up any form of progress due to red tape, beaurocracy and lazy pencil pushers.

Not all of it comes from the PDF. There have to be controls in procurement in order to ensure that the state does not get ripped of by suppliers or crooked officials or Defence Force personnel.

BigDuffman wrote: »

Yes because like you said in your earlier idiotic comment the only reason a reservist would want to do this is to play soldiers and get to wear the uniform in public......then get drunk and fall in a puddle...nothing to do with a sense of wanting to do something to help, or public justification of the reserves existence. With talk of creches you should definitely either check yourself in or grow up.

If the reserves need a flood to justify their existence, it is time to close them up now. They can help in their civillian capacity all they want. Expecting the PDF to manage them at a time when the PDF is stretched is ludicrous.

I am not going to dignify you personal abuse with a reply.

concussion

Take, for example, a platoon of Reservists, supervised by RDF NCO's and under the control of an RDF SNCO being directed by whatever PDF officer/NCO is in charge of filling sandbags, preeping shelters etc. You say that these people

Jo King wrote: »

...would have to be rounded up, given equipment, transported to the flooded areas, provided with accommodation and catering, with care taken that they do not injure themselves, get drunk on their time off and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

You then go on to say that if Reservists want to help, they should do it as individuals.

So tell me, how do these Reservists, who are under a proper chain of command and working to provide relief in a manner which the DF have though best, suddenly become vastly more effective and and less accident-prone when they wander into the local GAA club (individually, at different times and with unknown commitments) saying they'll help out?


Edit - If the PDF personnel, whose job it is to push paper around, cannot organise timely budget approval in order to pay Reservists then what is your over-elaborate reason for preventing Reservists helping in barracks without pay? Civil Defence and Red Cross don't get paid and they seem to operate without massive fears of job security, social welfare, medical costs etc.

In my opinion

[quote=Jo King;
Not all of it comes from the PDF. There have to be controls in procurement in order to ensure that the state does not get ripped of by suppliers or crooked officials or Defence Force personnel.quote]

Chad Helicopters???

But that was ok cause and I quote " the paperwork was checked and in order" Helicopter was wrong but the paper work had the i dotted and t crossed. Priority is paper not people.

No military aid provided in Co. Leitrim yet, wonder why?

Oh and your point re PDF doing reserve admin you do realise it is their sole role. Reserve cadre has it's own structure from the Col down to the lone pte in each Bn (hear that 1 pte per bn. not like PDF ptes in Castlebar, Tralee, and elsewhere 1 per Bn not 40 per coy) The reality is in 3 hrs reserve can be mobilised if there is a desire or need

Reality is there is no need for reserve yet because v few troops are actually tasked, the civil defence are the lead rescue agency in this flooding situation army are aiding the civil defence but spinning it to appear that they are leading the show. The driver from Garrison Transport interviewed by Teresa Mannion was on the ball that day in Ballinasloe he impressed me.

The army are providing drivers and high axle trucks, sandbags are the council afaik.

Lockstep

I heard the army were out in force back in Ireland.

Personally, I would've happily done the job as an RDF for free. It's one of the reasons I joined up.
Can't really see why people would refuse to do it/demand payment for doing so and expect to be taken seriously.

BigDuffman wrote: »

The only point I want to make is that if asked a lot of members of the reserve would give up their free time to help and would not expect pay to ironically fill sandbags.

Yes.
Is easy for me to say it as I'm in another country but I'd be out with the army in a second if I was allowed.

McArmalite

Manic Moran wrote: »

Yes.

When I got called up for wildfire duty, my unit was basically the State Reserve. We spent six days sitting in the armoury waiting to be dispatched somewhere. We were never used. I got paid about $1000 for my time, and food. Of course, I didn't get my civilian pay.

NTM

$1000 for six days hanging around, not bad. Well with the country in the state it is in we won't see it but maybe if fellas were paid when on weekend exercises etc they might take it a bit more serious as most ( including myself in my time ) look the RDF as like attended football training or something half heartedly.

Skyhawk1990

McArmalite wrote: »

$1000 for six days hanging around, not bad. Well with the country in the state it is in we won't see it but maybe if fellas were paid when on weekend exercises etc they might take it a bit more serious as most ( including myself in my time ) look the RDF as like attended football training or something half heartedly.

The only difference you'd see there is that more people would show up. Those extra people that would would only hinder the people that would have shown up regardless of whether or not they were being paid or not. I've seen it in my own unit. Someone in authority says there's a weekend coming up. The first thing that would come out of the people that would slow you down etc. is "is it paid?" Thank God that those people have left or have nothing to do with me anymore! What I do agreed with though is that an element of seriousness needs to be brought in for some people.

@ Jo King: There was no personal abuse in Duffmans reply to you. YOU in fact insulted each and every reservist that puts blood sweat and tears in to the organisation to try to get the best out of it and to try to improve the organisation itself.

The PDF can be a nuisance themselves and get drunk too. While on FFT this year there was an incident that was started by the one soldier from the PDF. Nothing happened in the end as my RDF colleague was told to leave him off by one of the Cadre staff that intervened. Suffice to say that that PDF soldier would have come worse off if something happened.

The example of Manic being called up and doing hanging around was not a waste of money they were kept there in case anything happened. Better to have someone there ready to go rather than having to wait for them to show up and get the gear do paperwork and all the other sh1te that goes on.

Of course many people in the reserves are going to jump at the chance to do something to help the people stuck out in the floods. The prevailing thought out there is that the RDF is still what the FCÁ was. When it is in fact a different organisation. They want to go out and prove their worth to the public. If it's a flood/other natural disaster/man made so be it. Because the only other way that the Reserve is going to be called out is if the country is invaded or WW3 breaks out. Neither of which is likely. (No one go into conspiracies or what nostradamus said!) As said before even if it's just taking over duties in the barracks to enable the PDF go out and fill sandbags. Or to fill the sandbags etc.

Everything starts out with an individual. One individual decides to join up. So do others this then build up into a team. Then you have your formations and chain of command.

If you are PDF what exactly is your experience with the RDF? Is it just based on what you have heard? Were you RDF before joining and now the black beret has embedded itself up your ass? I ask this as your impression of the Reserve is absolutely abysmal as said before we are not special needs organisation that you make us out to be.

Manic Moran

They can help in their civillian capacity all they want. Expecting the PDF to manage them at a time when the PDF is stretched is ludicrous.

In that case the Army needs to fix itself and its systems. The point of a reserve is that they're to be used when the primary organisation is stretched.

ready to go rather than having to wait for them to show up and get the gear do paperwork

There was very little paperwork. There was a daily sign-in roster which we signed to prove we were there. There's a pre-filled-out form which is used to purchase food. Hand the form to the local restaurant, the restaurant then sends it, with the counter-signed bill, to the State for reimbursement. That was it. Everything else was done by HQ or after the fact, when things had quietened down a bit.

The only difference you'd see there is that more people would show up. Those extra people that would would only hinder the people that would have shown up regardless of whether or not they were being paid or not.

Now where's the equality in that?

There are both moral and practical questions involved. If the weekend were paid, I might be more inclined to take a day's unpaid leave from my Saturday job. I still need to pay my bills, the weekend training pay check could counter it. On a moral level, why should some people get paid for the same work and others not? If a bagger is bagging bags next to a PDF soldier, and the PDF soldier isn't volunteering his time freely out of the goodness of his socio-moral heart, why should anyone expect an RDF soldier to do so? This applies equally to a training weekend. Some of the people on the ground are getting paid. Some are not. Why?

NTM

Skyhawk1990

Manic Moran wrote: »

There was very little paperwork. There was a daily sign-in roster which we signed to prove we were there. There's a pre-filled-out form which is used to purchase food. Hand the form to the local restaurant, the restaurant then sends it, with the counter-signed bill, to the State for reimbursement. That was it. Everything else was done by HQ or after the fact, when things had quietened down a bit.

Fair enough. I was taking about the Irish army

Manic Moran wrote: »

Now where's the equality in that?

There are both moral and practical questions involved. If the weekend were paid, I might be more inclined to take a day's unpaid leave from my Saturday job. I still need to pay my bills, the weekend training pay check could counter it. On a moral level, why should some people get paid for the same work and others not? If a bagger is bagging bags next to a PDF soldier, and the PDF soldier isn't volunteering his time freely out of the goodness of his socio-moral heart, why should anyone expect an RDF soldier to do so? This applies equally to a training weekend. Some of the people on the ground are getting paid. Some are not. Why?

There is no equality I agree with that. I'd like it to be paid as well but in reality is it going to happen. I don't have a job either so i know that was easy for me to say that I'd do the weekend for free. The Government want to keep the prevailing volunteer ethos in the Reserve (no doubt so they don't have to spend more money off it and so they can spin that off to screw the RDF over more in the future). Don't get me wrong I live for the weekly training nights, the training weekends and the camps during the summer. I was talking about the organisation in it's current form. Though in my unit most if not all do take it seriously.

concussion

Here's an overview of all the good work that the Civil Defence have been doing around the country - fair dues to all of them, it's a shame they haven't been receiving more coverage in the news.

http://www.civildefence.ie/cdweb.nsf/documents/80BE16B3B014EAC58025767800382083