Ireland has an inability to produce technically proficient players: Discuss!

Theresalwaysone

noodler wrote: »

Best ten nations in the world and their respective population please.

I am not backing you into a corner to say population is the be-all and end-all - all I am saying is that it clearly plays a part.

Do the same for rugby.

Wales/Ireland/New Zealand.

noodler

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Do the same for rugby.

Wales/Ireland/New Zealand.

Rugby is nowhere near as popular and is unsurprisingly massive in the countries Britain colonised.

Some people would argue Rugby is more about body conditioning too. I wouldn't know.

Its just not comparable.

Chucky the tree

noodler wrote: »

Best ten nations in the world and their respective population please.

I am not backing you into a corner to say population is the be-all and end-all - all I am saying is that it clearly plays a part.

Population plays no part in the type of player you produce. Look at Ireland and rugby. Look at England and soccer, huge population but technically they have been awful for years. It's all down to the way they are trained at a young age. Ireland and the UK the mentality at underage level is that winning is all that matters, at underage level that's an awful way of doing things.

Theresalwaysone

noodler wrote: »

Rugby is nowhere near as popular and is unsurprisingly massive in the countries Britain colonised.

Some people would argue Rugby is more about body conditioning too. I wouldn't know.

Jesus. Just about think what you are saying. Seriously.

noodler

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Population plays no part in the type of player you produce. Look at Ireland and rugby. Look at England and soccer, huge population but technically they have been awful for years. It's all down to the way they are trained at a young age. Ireland and the UK the mentality at underage level is that winning is all that matters, at underage level that's an awful way of doing things.

Popularity plays a massive role I am afraid. Cricket just is not played in the US or in most countries outside of the British sphere.

It is/has been the same with Rugby for years.

Population plays a role.

noodler

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Jesus. Just about think what you are saying. Seriously.

What don't you understand?

Rugby is an elitist sport played in a small group of countries.

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world.

You CANNOT compare the two like that. Ireland has a long tradition in the game, China does not.

Theresalwaysone

I give up.

Chucky the tree

Oh and here's a list of the most populated countries in the world, hardly footballing Gods.

1. China
2. India
3. US
4. Indonieasa
5. Brazil
6. Pakistan
7. Bangladesh
8. Nigeria
9. Russia
10. Japan


lol, after seeing you other two posts I'm joining theresa. Back on topic the best thing for Ireland to do to improve the players coming through would be to get rid of all footballing competitions for players under 16. They should just play friendlies every week instead.

noodler

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Oh and here's a list of the most populated countries in the world, hardly footballing Gods.

1. China
2. India
3. US
4. Indonieasa
5. Brazil
6. Pakistan
7. Bangladesh
8. Nigeria
9. Russia
10. Japan


lol, after seeing you other two posts I joining theresa.

Oh my god, did either of you ever do Mathes in school? Or stats in college?

Trust me, if you ran a regression in a statistical software package, the coefficient for Population would be positive.

Both of you keep looking at it in a "Population either explains it all or it explains nothing". For example Chucky, half the countries in your list there are/or have recently been part of the third world. Do you see how this might play a role?

There are many factors that play a role and population is one of them. If both of you want to say that population plays no role whatsoever then you are blatantly wrong.

FatherTed

drkpower wrote: »

Coaching is obviously a massive reason as is the lunatic manner in which winning at all costs is encouraged in even under 10s football, never allowing kids to properly express themselves for fear of messing up. (see famous D'Unbelievables sketch for good illustration!).

But Im surprised noone has mentioned the climatic reasons. It is no surprise that Uk/Irl/Scandinavian footballers have traditionally less skill levels (with many exceptions, obviously). I think the Mediterannean weather historically favoured a slower more technical style of play while the Northern countries were less likely to play it on the ground due to poorer pitch quality and cooler conditions generally allowed for a more high pace fast and furious chasing style which discouraged long periods of possesssion football.

Bingo. Coaching in Ireland and England and also where I am now, the US at underage level is a win at all costs mentality. You'll notice all 3 countries typically have less great technically gifted players. I work with some Brazilian lads and they laugh when they see underage games here. They tell me they never played an organized game until they were 11 or 12. And here we are working with 7 and 8 year olds.

Also, another aspect is the English clubs are not bringing over as many Irish kids as they used to mainly due to the influx of non UK/Irish players over the last 15 or so years. This has also hurt the growth of English players.

Once and for all, proper academies need to set up in Ireland but that will never happen without the support of the FAI and also, mainly fans who refuse to put money into the local game. The standard in the US has improved immensely thanks to a number of academies started in a few places here.

JPA

I agree population has nothing to with producing a technically gifted player. It's about the coaching, and it doesn't matter if the population is 10,000 or 10 million.

A big population may lead to more what you might call, "naturally gifted" players, but for an average, normal player who may become a professional, coaching could be what makes or breaks them in this country.

DM_7

Over the years the coaching and facilities were not up to standard.

The skills were not trained into kids as the coaches didn't know how to do it. The FAI over the last 5,6,7 years they have started to introduce training skills into coaches. The FAI have coaches regularly go to clubs and give coaching to the coaches. Over the next 5-10 years I think Ireland will have more technically proficient players.

Many clubs across the country have invested money in all weather pitches for training and playing on in smaller numbers. They have also started to develop well maintained grass pitches.

Some of the younger players we have in England now are sought after for their technical skill. This is trend I think will increase.

noodler

202 Andorra
203 San Marino
203 Anguilla
203 Montserrat
203 American Samoa
203 Papua New Guinea

By the way Chucky, theres the 5 worst teams in Soccer. Their cup does not exactly run over in terms of population do they?

Of course I wouldn't try and attribute country size with the full difference in technique.

fulhamfanincork

FatherTed wrote: »

Once and for all, proper academies need to set up in Ireland here.

Set up Academies and get rid of the professional game to an extent.

That'd be my idea.

Theresalwaysone

Anyway, getting away from whether population is a factor (it's not imo, but no point debating it any further, Ive said all I have to say and I think it shows that population isnt a factor) Climate reasons is pretty interesting and makes sense to me.

I can see why it'd make sense. We cant change that though... well, not over the short term.

Coaching seems to be the agreed problem. Dm-Ice pointed it out and I have been told elsewhere that the Fai are acutely aware of this and have taken steps to help with it.

I havent actually been involved with underage teams too much this year, would have been involved in the past, so I dont know the full extent of the proposed changes. Anyone inform me?

noodler

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Anyway, getting away from whether population is a factor (it's not imo, but no point debating it any further, Ive said all I have to say and I think it shows that population isnt a factor)

Population is one of many factors.

A quick glance will show that the larger populations are definitely skewed towards the top half of the rankings.

Theresalwaysone

noodler wrote: »

Population is one of many factors.

A quick glance will show that the larger populations are definitely skewed towards the top half of the rankings.

Im not talking about the top of the rankings, or whos the best team.

Ok, make it easy, explain to me why population is a factor?

Pro. F

Definitely coaching and probably pitches too. England is a clearer example of the problems in coaching than Ireland since they have a huge population and more uniform developement of their best players.

I've read plenty of interesting stuff about football youth developement around the world. The thing that really strikes me is the lack of skills coaching in this region compared to South America and the Med.

I believe that skills acquisition is about accuracy (perfection of the skill) versus fluency (use of the skill). To me it seems that there is an over emphasis on fluency training in this part of the world.

What i mean is, kids get their accuracy (perfected skills) from isolated training drills that improve technique. They get their fluency (practice using their skills to win) from playing competitive games. In the parts of the world where the highest proportion of skilled players emerge they place far less emphasis on playing games in training and far more on developing skills. And the games that they do play are organised so as to test the kids skills rather than their fitness and hunger.

Giles and Dunphy are always bemoaning the fall of street football in modern times and they probably have a point too. Kids playing football on the streets, more concerned about learning and showing off new tricks than winning, with no coaches telling them that they have to win, is certainly a proven method of developing skillful players. Skills training in youth football needs to take up the slack since the decline of street football imo.

The 6+5 rule will probably improve the standard and theory of youth developement in England (it may even be already doing so). Hopefully the new standards and methods will directly filter through to Ireland.

bUILDERtHEbOB

Coaches at u-14 level putting too much emphasis on trying to win some pointless league title as opposed to trying to develop players who could play at a higher level.

nullzero

To my mind the big problem we have producing top quality players lies in the fact that as a country we are Jack's of all sporting trades and masters of none.
We're a small country with a small population and we have four major field sports.
I think Ireland does fantastically well in all sporting arenas considering the diversity of sports we compete in without really focusing on one.
Look at the Dutch, a country not a lot bigger than ours and they clearly put a lot of emphasis on soccer as a national sport. If they were competeing in rugby at a high level along with two indiginous field sports I doubt we'd have seen as many great Dutch footballers over the years.
I'm sure if Ireland suddenly decided to focus primerily on soccer we would improve at an exponential level.
It's just something we have to deal with a football fans in this country, there's always going to be competition to get kids involved in different sports and it's something thats usually influenced by whatever sport is the trendiest at the time. If kids see Ireland doing well at rugby, they will want to follow suit, same goes for the Italia 90 days doing great thing for football.
It's a less that ideal situation, but it's what we're stuck with.

zAbbo

The issue is the same in England, and is no real surprise here as almost all of our International squad were either born there or joined an English academy at a young age like Robbie Keane who joined Wolves at 14.

All the grassroot changes would not change much if we're under the influence of English club academies.

Each country has their own issues, we tend to produce athletic grafters, Portugal have a conveyor belt of tricky wingers, Spain produce technically gifted mid fielders etc.

Theresalwaysone

Again, the indigneous sports or competing sports is just a continuation of the population argument.

And so far, I've to be convinced population plays a part so I wont accept that the fact it has competing sports as a reason.

Pro. F

noodler wrote: »

Trust me, if you ran a regression in a statistical software package, the coefficient for Population would be positive.

lol at your claim that you can predict the results of a statistical analysis.

noodler wrote: »

Population is one of many factors.

A quick glance will show that the larger populations are definitely skewed towards the top half of the rankings.

Surely this thread is about the production of technically gifted players not the success of different international teams. Of course a bigger population will have a better team but it doesn't follow that they will have a higher proportion of technically skilled players. Look at the English player pool. They have a massive population and they have an amazing lack of technically gifted players.

DM_7

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Anyway, getting away from whether population is a factor (it's not imo, but no point debating it any further, Ive said all I have to say and I think it shows that population isnt a factor) Climate reasons is pretty interesting and makes sense to me.

I can see why it'd make sense. We cant change that though... well, not over the short term.

Coaching seems to be the agreed problem. Dm-Ice pointed it out and I have been told elsewhere that the Fai are acutely aware of this and have taken steps to help with it.

I havent actually been involved with underage teams too much this year, would have been involved in the past, so I dont know the full extent of the proposed changes. Anyone inform me?

http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=114&Itemid=126

The FAI have devised a pathway. Six stages of development. Each one is for differant ages and stages. At the beginning they try to make it fun to keep kids intereste. then slowly introduce the fundamental skills eventually leading to the mental side of things.

They also produce coaching manuals to support each stage with drills and they teach coaches using coaching courses.

I don't know exactly what they do now but around 6 years ago they were holding an introduction to coaching course in clubs across the country. The FAI would take your details and offer more coaching coarses after that to learn more and more.

I remember doing a course with Noel O'Reilly (RIP) and learning about what drills to do with kids and how they helped the kids progress. Some of the stuff I never ever heard before while being coached.

Its a slow process but over time it will lead to changes in how kids are coached.

I am not convinced about the population argument. If you coach properly you will teach kids technique. That could be as simple as a drill that teaches the kids to be able to see more while in possession of the ball. Instead of focusing entirely on the ball you can teach a kid to keep the ball in vision but look around.