Health care in USA

Lockstep

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I didn't use the A&E as a Clinic. I never have and will. Nice try at baiting and/or generalizing though.

I never said you did but people can do so.
That's the problem right there.
How is that baiting or generalising?

Lockstep

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Hmmmm... now why in the world would I consider first hand knowledge of a medical professional who is familiar with both the US healthcare system and also a socialized medicine system to be relevant (in this highly politically charged debate we are having in the US), and then post it in the “Health Care in the USA” topic. Silly me!

Yes, use one anecdotal case (dubious arguments at best seeing as they run into problems as they can easily be embellished/made up without anyone able to look into them) in the midst of a thread where attempts are made to use genuine data and research.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Let’s see... is it not true that in much of Europe, babies born before 26 weeks' gestation are not considered "live births?" And that Switzerland only counts babies who are at least 30 centimeters long (11.8 inches) as being born alive? And in Canada, Austria and Germany, only babies weighing at least a pound are considered live births? And that France, Hong Kong and Japan don't count infant deaths that occur in the 24 hours after birth? Need more?

I'll repeat myself; evidence? Please.

Overheal

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Abortion ---- FAIL. First Trimester. But that was not the iformation we were looking for....

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Live Birth

---

DING!

Myth: The U.S. premature birth rate is higher than that of other countries.

Fact: In the Netherlands, babies below 25 weeks gestation are no longer resuscitated, but rather given only palliative treatment. Those at 25 to 26 weeks are generally resuscitated and kept alive, but the decision depends on the facts of each case.3 The result is underreporting the number babies that may be live-born but who are not offered aggressive treatment.

Switzerland only uses two of the four WHO criteria, respiration and heart beat, and does not aggressively treat very premature babies. In some cantons, the baby must be 30 cm long to be registered as a live birth. Switzerland also requires registration of still births only from 6 months gestation and has no rule regarding registration of live births. Studies have found significant underreporting of premature births in Switzerland, which can alter the overall mortality rate by more than a percentage point.4

http://www.biggovhealth.org/resource/myths-facts/infant-mortality-and-premature-birth/

Makes me wonder about reporting of violence. Perhaps hyper-anal bureaucracy and meticulous recording is making America look bad.

Ill leave you to google the rest Jams. 30 whole seconds. Whew. Im spent.

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I am an American born citizen. They cannot turn me away. Plus I do have a valid CC and SS#. Plus the last couple of years I was in the States I was on Healthfirst [had Cancer was a PT worker over the Medicaid limit so I lied and said I was unemployed to get it]

This doesnt make sense. You are giving out about a government run health service but more than happy to lie in order for you to qualify for it and avail of the said service.

LOL truly the republican alright!:D

JohnMc1

jank wrote: »

This doesnt make sense. You are giving out about a government run health service but more than happy to lie in order for you to qualify for it and avail of the said service.

LOL truly the republican alright!:D

Yes Jank I know you would have preferred [Yes you are that low or atleast come across like that]if I had died but you are still grasping straws to try and bait an argument with me.

GuanYin

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

"You've heard of the $10 aspirin? It's that pricey because hospitals mark up costs an average of 232%--as much as 673% at the 100 priciest institutions, according to a recent study by the Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy."

All pharmacies mark up but then Walmart and Walgreens and Target have 5 dollar drug schemes for generics.

US healthcare is the way it is because it's run for profit and healthcare should not be run for profit, but the level of healthcare and the actually administration is quite good. If and when policies change, US healthcare will probably look quite good.

Regarding Moore.... Really? Come on guys!!

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Yes Jank I know you would have preferred [Yes you are that low or atleast come across like that]if I had died but you are still grasping straws to try and bait an argument with me.

No, its not that at all. I just cant get my head around the fact the you are slaming government or socialised control of health care yet by all intents of purposes it saved your life!

I am guessing you did not have insurance cover for the particular treatment that did save your life or that you did but had to pay a large % to pay for it. I am guessing in the 10's of thosands at least anyway. Yet Medicaid gave you this for free (or waaaay cheaper) but you hate obamas plan becuase it is trying to help guys like you....

Just one question, what if they refused you medicaid...what would you have done? Get a huge loan to pay for the treatment, ask friends for a dig out? I am serious, what would you have done if the government didnt bail you out.

Also why didnt you have full health insurance?

By the way I am very glad you are here to tell the tale and gald you made a full recovery.

Lockstep

GuanYin wrote: »

US healthcare is the way it is because it's run for profit and healthcare should not be run for profit, but the level of healthcare and the actually administration is quite good. If and when policies change, US healthcare will probably look quite good.

The level of healthcare is excellent for those who have access to it, the administration in the HMOs is not. It's much too bureaucratic and expensive for my liking.

Lockstep

Overheal wrote: »

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Abortion ---- FAIL. First Trimester. But that was not the iformation we were looking for....

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Live Birth

---

DING!

http://www.biggovhealth.org/resource/myths-facts/infant-mortality-and-premature-birth/

Makes me wonder about reporting of violence. Perhaps hyper-anal bureaucracy and meticulous recording is making America look bad.

Ill leave you to google the rest Jams. 30 whole seconds. Whew. Im spent.

Forgive my scepitcism on the views of a group funded by pharmaceutical companies (as the Centre for Medicine in the Public Interest is, with it's biggest contributors in 2006 being Pfizers and the PHRMA)

It refers to in some cantons, there's 26 of them so I'd be interested in seeing more data on that.

Regardless, it is not my job to back up your points.

RedPlanet

biggovhealth.org?
Just a tad partisan.
Regardless, if it's true what the editorialist claims about all these other countries.. then it may also suggest that there exists a certain international practice in place of claiming live births. And it may very well be the case (like using imperial measurements) where the US is just the odd-man out.

US exceptionalism, exceptionally at odds with the rest of the world.

JohnMc1

jank wrote: »

No, its not that at all. I just cant get my head around the fact the you are slaming government or socialised control of health care yet by all intents of purposes it saved your life!

Not slamming it at all. Its true its not perfect and what the Obama admin wants won't be perfect as well. Do you really want Pelosi, Reid, Dobb and Frank overseeing your treatments?

I am guessing you did not have insurance cover for the particular treatment that did save your life or that you did but had to pay a large % to pay for it. I am guessing in the 10's of thosands at least anyway. Yet Medicaid gave you this for free (or waaaay cheaper) but you hate obamas plan becuase it is trying to help guys like you....

I hate the Obama plan because nobody is being across the board honest with us. Just pass everything in the middle of the night.They are playing hard and fast with our tax dollars [a trillion dollars or more and its not going to add to the defecit? Do they really think we're that stupid?] all the while touting honesty and transparency. There are ways of improving Healthcare

Just one question, what if they refused you medicaid...what would you have done? Get a huge loan to pay for the treatment, ask friends for a dig out? I am serious, what would you have done if the government didnt bail you out.

Probaly the only option left. Work out a payment plan with them.

Also why didnt you have full health insurance?

I was working 20 hours as a doorman [in residential buildings not the bouncer at bars type] and the building manager was a real **** [She was one of those "I broke the glass ceiling so you're all going pay." types. Makes Pelosi look pleasant in comparison] and wouldn't add me to the buildings Healthcare fund [It was on $20 to add a name to the list] and my Union delegate [Local 32BJ now part of SEIU the purple shirted thugs you see on the news] would only talk **** and not do anything.

By the way I am very glad you are here to tell the tale and gald you made a full recovery.

Thank You.

Pocono Joe

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Yes, use one anecdotal case (dubious arguments at best seeing as they run into problems as they can easily be embellished/made up without anyone able to look into them) in the midst of a thread where attempts are made to use genuine data and research.

Well... there was a police officer present, but hey, think what you want.

I'll repeat myself; evidence? Please.

Here is some of the data you were looking for that I found in less than 5 minutes of searching (from a source you might be comfortable with).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm#ref7

Make special note of the following:
Although most countries require that all live births be reported, limits on birth registration requirements for some countries do have the potential to affect infant mortality comparisons, especially if very small infants who die soon after birth are excluded from infant mortality computations (7,8). There is also concern that birth registration may be incomplete near the lower limit of the reporting requirement, as the exact gestational age may not always be known.
7. Kramer MS, Platt RW, Yang H, et al. Registration artifacts in international comparisons of infant mortality. Paediatr Perinat Epidemiol 16:16-22. 2002.
8. Graafmans WC, Richardus JH, Macfarlane A, et al. Comparability of published perinatal mortality rates in Western Europe: The qualitative impact of differences in gestational age and birthweight criteria. BJOG 108:1237-45.

For the United States and for European countries, infant mortality rates were highest for infants born at 22-23 weeks of gestation and declined sharply with increasing gestational age. The majority of infants born at 22-23 weeks of gestation die in their first year of life; however, infant mortality rates for these very small infants may be unreliable as they may be affected by reporting differences as well as by differences in infant resuscitation practices (9).
9. Singh J, Fanaroff J, Andrews B, et al. Resuscitation in the “gray zone” of viability: Determining physician preferences and predicting infant outcomes. Pediatrics 120:519-26. 2007.

I was going to list this one for you, but I tire of all the ad hominem attacks. So think what you want... but 1+1 does equal 2.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/9/184540.shtml

Let the yabutts begin.


Oh yeah... do you have a source for that statement of yours, or is it just opinion?

The level of healthcare is excellent for those who have access to it, the administration in the HMOs is not.

I utilize an HMO provided by BC. A pain in the butt sometimes, but I still receive excellent care.

RedPlanet

Overheal wrote: »

One of the few things I like going forward into the current bill is protection for Doctors from Lawsuit. Couple that with driving down or freezing hospital prices. In fairness to medicine, they can have their entire earnings for a year pissed away in a week if somone yells Malpractice.

Jeez you're worried about protecting doctors but what about their patients?

Americans are increasingly at risk of financial ruin due to illness and medical expenses, according to a new study released yesterday by the American Journal of Medicine. The researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to nearly two thirds, or 62 percent, of all bankruptcies in 2007—before the major impact of the housing collapse and current economic downturn. That’s a 50 percent increase over a similar survey in 2001 by the same researchers.

Take Donna, from Chicago (right) who told us her bankruptcy story during our Cover America Tour. Donna’s husband had already been diagnosed with a heart condition, and when she found out she had uterine cancer, their out-of-pocket costs shot up to $9,000 a year. When they fell behind on their bills, one of her doctors sued to garnish her wages, which forced her and her husband into bankruptcy. They ended up losing their house, she gave up her job at a newspaper, and they moved into their daughter’s basement until they could afford a small apartment.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/06/health-care-bankruptcy-on-rise-medical-debt-medical-bills-how-to-avoid-bankruptcy.html

Pocono Joe

A good reading, and true experience in Texas, on why tort reform should be part of our overall health care reform package. And here is a very telling quote from the piece by Dr. Howard Dean, self-proclaimed leader of the Public Option push.

President Obama did not include aggressive lawsuit reform in his health care plan priorities and former Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean has made it clear why: “The reason why tort reform is not in the bill is because the people who wrote it did not want to take on the trial lawyers.”

http://www.tortreform.com/node/550

Lockstep

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Well... there was a police officer present, but hey, think what you want.

Does this mean I can say "I met over 9000 doctors who told me that the US system is falling under it's own weight"? It's both impossible to prove and can be used to shore up any argument.
That's the reason I'm extremely sceptical about anecdotal evidence.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Here is some of the data you were looking for that I found in less than 5 minutes of searching (from a source you might be comfortable with).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm#ref7

It says that the following require reporting of all births;
Austria, Denmark, England and Wales, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Northern Ireland, Portugal, Scotland, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, United States
Surely it can't be skewed too heavily?

Also has;

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I was going to list this one for you, but I tire of all the ad hominem attacks. So think what you want... but 1+1 does equal 2.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/9/184540.shtml

Let the yabutts begin.

That site relies pretty heavily on comparing countries that have different definitions for reporting infant mortality (Switzerland and France for example)
When comparing those countries that have the same reporting requirements as the US (Austria, Denmark) the US still comes out below;







I don't believe I've made an ad-hominem attack against you. I have questioned your sources and data.
If there are any posts I've made where I've attacked you directly, please quote them. I will then apologise (unless it's clearly not an attack)
Not trying to be a sarcastic bollix there, apologies if you feel attacked.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Oh yeah... do you have a source for that statement of yours, or is it just opinion?

Sure, The Healthcare Imperative by the Paul Krugman in Conscience of a Liberal (2007), where he notes that private sector administration in the US accounts for 16% of their budget (mainly due to screenings), Medicare and Medicaid only spend 2% of their budget on administration.
I can get you the exact page number when I return home this evening if you wish.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I utilize an HMO provided by BC. A pain in the butt sometimes, but I still receive excellent care.

Indeed, healthcare when gotten in the US is of an extremely high standard.

Lockstep

I think tort reform in the US is very necessary.

Compo cultures have an extremely negative aspect on healthcare.

Overheal

RedPlanet wrote: »

Jeez you're worried about protecting doctors but what about their patients?

Americans are increasingly at risk of financial ruin due to illness and medical expenses, according to a new study released yesterday by the American Journal of Medicine. The researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to nearly two thirds, or 62 percent, of all bankruptcies in 2007—before the major impact of the housing collapse and current economic downturn. That’s a 50 percent increase over a similar survey in 2001 by the same researchers.

Take Donna, from Chicago (right) who told us her bankruptcy story during our Cover America Tour. Donna’s husband had already been diagnosed with a heart condition, and when she found out she had uterine cancer, their out-of-pocket costs shot up to $9,000 a year. When they fell behind on their bills, one of her doctors sued to garnish her wages, which forced her and her husband into bankruptcy. They ended up losing their house, she gave up her job at a newspaper, and they moved into their daughter’s basement until they could afford a small apartment.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/06/health-care-bankruptcy-on-rise-medical-debt-medical-bills-how-to-avoid-bankruptcy.html

You really dont see the relation between doctors getting sued by patients and patients getting sued by doctors?

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Not slamming it at all. Its true its not perfect and what the Obama admin wants won't be perfect as well. Do you really want Pelosi, Reid, Dobb and Frank overseeing your treatments?

Well they oversaw your treatment to some extent and you are here to tell the tale so it cant be that bad.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I hate the Obama plan because nobody is being across the board honest with us. Just pass everything in the middle of the night.They are playing hard and fast with our tax dollars [a trillion dollars or more and its not going to add to the defecit? Do they really think we're that stupid?] all the while touting honesty and transparency. There are ways of improving Healthcare .

Agree to some extent but that is politics I am afraid. However, I do believe that they are trying to improve it for the majority and for the greater good. On the other side of the coin the GOP has done NOTHING to try and improve health care. It killed hillarys plan in 92 and while bush was in the white house it wasnt even an issue. We all know whom the health insurance companys would favour in the white house. These town hall meetings in the summer were hi jacked by corporate interests. But that is politics too.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Probaly the only option left. Work out a payment plan with them..

So you would be indebted for years and years to come. Surely you realise that there is a better way and that those damm liberals in france, germany might be on to something when it comes to health care. No system is clad iron 100% perfect but the american system either pay us of **** off.

Health care costs are the number one reason for bankruptcy in the US and you were not too far off being one of those statistic yourself.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I was working 20 hours as a doorman [in residential buildings not the bouncer at bars type] and the building manager was a real **** [She was one of those "I broke the glass ceiling so you're all going pay." types. Makes Pelosi look pleasant in comparison] and wouldn't add me to the buildings Healthcare fund [It was on $20 to add a name to the list] and my Union delegate [Local 32BJ now part of SEIU the purple shirted thugs you see on the news] would only talk **** and not do anything..

Yea, unions can be dicks and only look after themselves to some extent

JohnMc1

jank wrote: »

Well they oversaw your treatment to some extent and you are here to tell the tale so it cant be that bad.

Which is why I don't want the new 3 Stooges [Pelosi, Frank and Reid with Dodd as Shemp] running healthcare. When Obama compares the revamped Healthcare system to the Post Office and other Govt run systems and to Irelands Healthcare system that should make any sane person cringe.

Agree to some extent but that is politics I am afraid.

Last time I checked Obama ran on a campaign of "Hope and Change" and "Honesty and Transparency" and "Getting rid of the Politics of old" and "Reaching across the aisle" Delivery on all of those promises? 0

However, I do believe that they are trying to improve it for the majority and for the greater good.

OK. That is just hilarious. LOL @ those controls freaks spending our tax dollars like a child who just got their Communion money having our best interests at heart. Level with me here. You did not type with a staright face.

So you would be indebted for years and years to come. Surely you realise that there is a better way and that those damm liberals in france, germany might be on to something when it comes to health care. No system is clad iron 100% perfect but the american system either pay us of **** off.

Health care costs are the number one reason for bankruptcy in the US and you were not too far off being one of those statistic yourself.

What else could I do? I'm a middle class white guy so I can't go on TV crying racism and they evil white man is keeping from my treatments.

I've been striaght across the board saying the system can be reformed. I'm just not for this reform. Their refusal to read their own bills before voting and their about face about putting it one the internet so we the tax payers can look at it does not inspire confidence that they have our best interest at heart. Just another trillion dollars down the drain when it finally kicks in 2013 [even though we start paying taxes for it in Jan]

Yea, unions can be dicks and only look after themselves to some extent

Can be? Did you hear the story about them going after a 17 yo Eagle Scout for having the utter audacity to clean a section of the park as part of his Community Service to earn his merit badge?

Plus the SEIU has had more face time Obama than any of his cabniet members or his military advisors [He's decided to make a decision about Iraq Afghan on Dec 6th? Some leader he is] The only one who close to that many visits is Michael Moore.

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Which is why I don't want the new 3 Stooges [Pelosi, Frank and Reid with Dodd as Shemp] running healthcare. When Obama compares the revamped Healthcare system to the Post Office and other Govt run systems and to Irelands Healthcare system that should make any sane person cringe..

Where and when exactly did Obama compare the Irish health care system with the US and the Post Office as an aspiration to government run health care. Porky pies?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Last time I checked Obama ran on a campaign of "Hope and Change" and "Honesty and Transparency" and "Getting rid of the Politics of old" and "Reaching across the aisle" Delivery on all of those promises? 0..

Well he is trying to change health care so you must give him a .5 mark at least....:p

JohnMc1 wrote: »

OK. That is just hilarious. LOL @ those controls freaks spending our tax dollars like a child who just got their Communion money having our best interests at heart. Level with me here. You did not type with a staright face.
..

And what do you think is their motive for more government run health care? New world order, Super Race, Money?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

What else could I do? I'm a middle class white guy so I can't go on TV crying racism and they evil white man is keeping from my treatments...

Ah so it comes down to race at the end of the day does it? I think this is the biggest gripe with the right at the moment. The white demograph is shrinking and coinciding with that the US is declining as a super power both at home and aboard. However I think they are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 13!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I've been striaght across the board saying the system can be reformed. I'm just not for this reform. Their refusal to read their own bills before voting and their about face about putting it one the internet so we the tax payers can look at it does not inspire confidence that they have our best interest at heart. Just another trillion dollars down the drain when it finally kicks in 2013 [even though we start paying taxes for it in Jan].

I think your issue is not with Obama or even the democrats. Its with governments both left and right in recent time that has failed to deal with issues that people feel concerned about. See in all this the Republicans are more or less like the Democrats they will both spend taxpayers money.

Remember the patriot act and how that was passed? As I keep saying that is US politics. It is no use of going " But Obama, but Pelosi, But , But, But...."
If you think that McCain or Romney or Palin (god forbid) were calling the shots that it would be any different? No way in hell would it be, the system is what it is and needs to be change IMO. More parties would be nice.

No use pointing the finger at liberal and calling then black when you are a pot!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Can be? Did you hear the story about them going after a 17 yo Eagle Scout for having the utter audacity to clean a section of the park as part of his Community Service to earn his merit badge? .

As I said Unions can be dicks!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Plus the SEIU has had more face time Obama than any of his cabniet members or his military advisors [He's decided to make a decision about Iraq Afghan on Dec 6th? Some leader he is] The only one who close to that many visits is Michael Moore.

Links to prove this or more swiney porky pies!!

jank

Just some post I dug up.

Your post was that I was selfish and callous for not wanting to pay for Healthcare when that is an individuals responsibility.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62138712&postcount=466

Yet you were more than happy to lie and avail of it for free. So if it were an individual responsibility why were you not true to your word and pay for it.

Do you lack moral conviction?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If you don't want to work hard then that is your problem. If you want to watch TV eat junk food all day why should I pay for hospital bills when your heart fails? If someone wants to smoke XX packs of cigarettes a day why should I pay their hospital bills when their lungs fails? If someone wants to spend one end of the day to the other in a bar drinking beer why should I pay for their hospital bills when their liver fails?

Humanitarianism can and should only go so far. At the end of the day you have to help yourself. Your existance does not mean I'm obligated to pay for your health insurance.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=62136110

See the problem with you johnmc1 is that you say it out loud bluntly but you can totally contradict yourself. By your own words nobody owed you that OP but did you refuse it, hell no!

Just take a time out, think and reflect on it for a second. By your own logic you could very well be dead, luckly for you and others that your not in charge, eh?

RedPlanet

Reminds me of a yank i met over the summer.
He was an older gent, almost 70.
Right winger, totally against Obama, democrats and anything they propose.
He was kinda dragging his right leg a little when he walked so i asked him if he was ok.
He said he has to get a hip replacment.
I wondered was he on a waiting list?

Nope, he's waiting to put it on Medicare. :rolleyes:

dave2pvd

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Which is why I don't want the new 3 Stooges [Pelosi, Frank and Reid with Dodd as Shemp] running healthcare.

I wish you'd stop peddling this Sean Hannity rhetoric. They are legislators. They will not be running healthcare, as you well know. Crafting legislation, yes. Running the system, no.

Overheal

jank wrote: »

Just some post I dug up.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62138712&postcount=466

Yet you were more than happy to lie and avail of it for free. So if it were an individual responsibility why were you not true to your word and pay for it.

Do you lack moral conviction?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If you don't want to work hard then that is your problem. If you want to watch TV eat junk food all day why should I pay for hospital bills when your heart fails? If someone wants to smoke XX packs of cigarettes a day why should I pay their hospital bills when their lungs fails? If someone wants to spend one end of the day to the other in a bar drinking beer why should I pay for their hospital bills when their liver fails?

Humanitarianism can and should only go so far. At the end of the day you have to help yourself. Your existance does not mean I'm obligated to pay for your health insurance.

JohnMc1 wrote:

I am an American born citizen. They cannot turn me away. Plus I do have a valid CC and SS#. Plus the last couple of years I was in the States I was on Healthfirst [had Cancer was a PT worker over the Medicaid limit so I lied and said I was unemployed to get it]

I'll just leave this here, not that Johnny will ever respond to it (after all what is there to say about it? :rolleyes:)

BlueLepreachaun

Every healthcare system will have its flaws. Giving the Govt control of the system when it can't run what it already does properly [Medicaid,Medicare, The Post Office, and Amtrack] should make any sane and rational person uneasy. Remember Obama said it would be just like the Post Office.:eek:

Obamas piss pour plan doens't involve govt control or anything even remotly like it, the only role the govt has in this plan is forcing you to buy PRIVATE health insurance, fining you if you dont' and subsidizing you if you cant afford it, in essence its a gigantic bloiwjob to the health insurance industry and a reward for the millions they've given the democratic party over the years. The govt doens't "run" anything, they just cut cheques to their insurance company buddies.
Then theres the token public plan for a tiny proportion of the country just to stop Obamas liberal base from having a fit and realizing hes nothing more than a reincarnation of Bill Clinton, a wishy washy centrist with no core beleifs who puts politics over policy.

and the post office, for a few cents, takes the peice of crap you wrote, put it on an aircraft and flys it to the other side of the country or the world, thats a pretty good ****ing service right there.

There is room for improvement but giving Pelosi and co control of our Health is not the answer.

Do right wing yanks actually THINK? You all seem to just spew out a predetermined collection of random phrases and talking points "the fed" "the defecit" "socialized medicine" "taxes " "liberals" etc, just jumbled together like the Family Guy Manatee tank in south park.


When this monstrosity of a bil is signed, a few years will pass and when people realize that the only thing thats changed is that they can't deny you coverage because of a pre-existing condition, and premiums have gone up and up and up, they're going to be veyr angry, but Obama and the dems will have got re-elected by that time (or so he thinks), with the help of insurance company money, so he doens't give a crap.

JohnMc1

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/health-care/2262-healthcare-bil-pay-for-a-plan-or-go-to-jail

jank

How about I google a link for an article thats titled
"Get sick without Health inusrance and die!"

JohnMc1

jank wrote: »

How about I google a link for an article thats titled
"Get sick without Health inusrance and die!"

As long as you can tell how that bill is actually good for people. $15,000 a year or 5 years in jail? Yeah that's really going to help. Only a retard would believe that.

Overheal

JohnMc1 wrote: »

As long as you can tell how that bill is actually good for people. $15,000 a year or 5 years in jail? Yeah that's really going to help. Only a retard would believe that.

yeah i wouldnt believe the figure is 15 grand either.

edit: and my zealous doubt has been rewarded,

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704795604574519671055918380.html

see, I knew something was wrong and misleading about that 15 grand. Check your sources next time JJ.

I imagine lil ol me, earning less than 15/yr, Im sure the group plan im already on will be plenty sufficient to pass muster.

JohnMc1

Overheal wrote: »

yeah i wouldnt believe the figure is 15 grand either.

edit: and my zealous doubt has been rewarded,

LOL @ you owning yourself.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704795604574519671055918380.html

see, I knew something was wrong and misleading about that 15 grand. Check your sources next time JJ.

I imagine lil ol me, earning less than 15/yr, Im sure the group plan im already on will be plenty sufficient to pass muster.

Don't be surprised if you have to pay that too. If there is a difference it won't be by too much. You know as well as I do that there shouldn't be "subsidies". It should be affordable for everyone. Anything over $1000 per annum [and one could probably argue that's steep as well] is downright criminal.
This bill is not about helping people. If it was the plan would not be $15,000 per annum and there would not be a mandatory 5 year prison sentence.