The basic rate of social welfare needs to be cut

Taxipete29

cm2000 wrote: »

Easy enough, for every 6 months you are on social welfare, cut it 25%

And what if you are genuinely trying but just cant get a job which in the current climate is not beyond the realms of possibility

Johnboy1951

cm2000 wrote: »

Easy enough, for every 6 months you are on social welfare, cut it 25%

How does that separate those who "choose" not to work and those who cannot find employment?

You say it is easy enough ....... well it is not very easy for me to understand how this achieves that separation, so maybe you will explain to me?

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Its nothing about bashing...its to do with the unsustainable ( and out of line compared with other countries ) amount of money the government gives out to people for doing no work in return.

Christ on a bike!!:rolleyes:
Let it go! You really do have too much time on your hands...Go get a job.

c montgomery

Yes it needs to be cut.

Child benefit needs to be cut too.

Rents are coming down so rent allowance should be cut.

Hopefully all this will be done in December.

Daithinski

Taxipete29 wrote: »

but you cannot punish the very people for who the welfare system was created to help.

+1 This is a very important point a lot of people seem to have forgotten.

Daithinski

cm2000 wrote: »

Easy enough, for every 6 months you are on social welfare, cut it 25%

This is a pretty ignorant statement to come out with. You don't seem to have a grasp of the issues involved.

But as they say opinions are like arséholes, everyone has one.

mikemac

I've been there, competing for a minimum wage jobs against thousands of students and many more thousands from Eastern Europe. And reading in newspapers that mass immigration was fantastic for Ireland.....
Galway is a bad example though, so many students and so many young people looking for summer jobs.

Maybe the social welfare rate needs to be cut.
But it's not always possible to walk out your front door and get a job, any job that week. Took me nine weeks, a college degree and the only job going was hotel porter which I had experience at.
Don't tell me Irish people are lazy and don't want these jobs, when I got the job I saw the CV's coming in

I don't think the welfare rate should be cut. And I've certainly paid back my nine weeks on job seekers allowance since then!
After 6 months or 12 months and intervals after that it can be looked at.
But I wouldn't like to see it cut now, any of us can lose our jobs in the morning.
Edit: I read the thread again, I don't know much about rent allowance or medical cards or any other benefit, never applied or received those

Senna

The whole SW system needs to be reformed, people made redundant recently deserve the 204 payment, but there is no need to have this as a flat rate for everyone. If you were unemployed during the bubble days it meant you couldn't be bothered and you do not deserve the full rate.
Likewise, if SW put restrictions on work, its just encouraging people to stay on the dole. At the moment out of a staff of 40 people, 5-6 of them wont work over 20 hours (they arent needed for over 20hr for a good 30 weeks of the year) as the SW wont let them sign off for those weeks and back on for the rest.

Over the last few years (during the bubble also) i have seen numerous cases of staff saying "i can only work 20 hours because i'm on single parent welfare, FIS (and others that i cant recall)" these are staff that have been offered more hours but refuse because; 1. the payments they lose for doing 10 hours more would be more than the extra wages. 2. the SW wont allow them to do extra hours this week and less the week after.

I realise these types of payments are different to the dole, as they are looking after children etc (i should say in one case a mother thats on single parent, yet her child works more hours than she does). Having experienced it during the bubble and now, it is not an effective way to distribute SW payments.

corktina

my firm went bust...took 4 months to get anything from the SW.....6 months later Im still owed €7500 in back pay BY THE GOVT, in redundancy, holiday pay etc under the insurance scheme..what a shameful way to treat people who pay in for this benefit...its not a free money,

and now you are saying it should be cut? TRY IT YOURSELF FIRST...

china doll

Hi, i just dont understand this mentality at all. Surely the goal should be to raise people above the minimum wage catagory, positivity , not negativity. While i know that this is impossible right now, down here on ground zero, people are struggling to get, and keep the jobs they have. FACT!!!! I realise it is demoralising to get up daily and work for a mere pittance over social welfare payments, but, we are talking about people surviving here. people are turning badly on each other at the moment, yes, there are abuses of the system, but levelling that out as a cut across social welfare payments isnt the way i feel. We have employers here milking the current crisis to abuse workers, and this crisis was not formed by social welfare probs, it was formed by fat cats who still hold nice cushy pay checks. What happens to those minimum pay jobs when there isnt cash about to spend. Basic economy lesson there. Your main emphasis i felt was on job seekers benefit/allowance or dole as we still refer to it. Yet you term your whole argument under one banner..........social welfare. What about the sick, disabled, carers, mothers trying to keep their kids. Would the cut in pay to all this stop our crisis or just would some others take fatter perks and continue previous abuses.? I wish you well and commend your diligence to get and hold your job and i hope things improve for you in the future. Sorry for the rant.:)

Senna

The simple fact is the JSB payment of 204 per week is too close to the minimum wage. And the minimum wage is already too high, but wont be cut as as long as the dole is comparable.

Johnboymac

comparison: married couple 5 qualifying children!
10 yrs sevice = take home pay of 550pw!

SW/JA
normal personal rate- 204
adult dependant - 135.60
child dependant x5- 130.00
Total 469.90 PW
these figures are correct as per SW website! this does not include the extra benefits of

a:Medical card
b:Rent allowance/mortgage supplement
c:back to school grants
d: school book grants

Giving the above, it is more expensive on the family budget to go to work!

GER12

There seems to be a general assumptions in relation to welfare rates and what some would perceive that welfare rates creates a discentive to work. Firstly, not all people who are currently claiming jobseekers were while they were in employment were on min wage jobs. Secondly, its easy to assume that people are claiming secondary entitlements but just because a person is claiming jobseekers or other any other welfare entitlements - they may not be claiming or be entitled to other secondary entitlements. There is reference that payments should be cut after 6 mths by 25% - so tough luck that you dont get a job despite having many applications and having received 100's of PFO's?

Instead of focusing on welfare rates, what about coming up with effective strategies that respond to labour market needs. What about holding govt to account for not identifying that we were in a false boom.... christ how up in arms did we get about a football match... that in itself sums it up. Rather than be the passive Irish start asking questions those in authority ie. politicans where did our money go to - what do we actually have to show for our years of boom and tax intake... nothing much as far as I can see....? What was FAS doing apart from the obvious - why did they fail to keep track of labour market needs and why are these same people including its economists still in these jobs drawing salaries from public monies? Why was FAS training people in sectors that was totally unsustainable? What are they doing to respond to today's problem - what are the labour activation measures and policies of Govt? Is FAS actually able to deal with those who are unemployed ie. the educated or are they completely out of their depth? And lastly, what about the DSFA what were they doing to control and audit various schemes and particularly those who were not unemployed during the boom years? It always amazes me in relation control and audit - that society is expected to assume responsibility for doing what are the paid duties of a public servant.

Lockstep

Oh lawd, another of these threads.


Seeing as this thread revolves around anecdotal evidence;
Minimum wage jobs I had in 2007- nearly all my co-workers were EE
2008- less EE, but they were still a majority.
2009- Nearly all were Irish (a few Spanish and a half dozen EE)

In my experience, the reason I find employers to hire EE over some Irish person with a degree is that the EE has more relevent work experience. Having a degree means jack squat in a minimum wage job. Having a few years experience lifting crates or dealing with people on the telephone is much more of a bonus.

mikemac wrote: »

I've been there, competing for a minimum wage jobs against thousands of students and many more thousands from Eastern Europe. And reading in newspapers that mass immigration was fantastic for Ireland.....
Galway is a bad example though, so many students and so many young people looking for summer jobs.

Maybe the social welfare rate needs to be cut.
But it's not always possible to walk out your front door and get a job, any job that week. Took me nine weeks, a college degree and the only job going was hotel porter which I had experience at.
Don't tell me Irish people are lazy and don't want these jobs, when I got the job I saw the CV's coming in

Irish people are looking for jobs now but often are at a disadvantage; less work experience and so on. Can hardly fault the EE for that. That said, whenever I went back to one of my old workplaces, most of the staff were now Irish.

gerry28

Reduce soical welfare by 10 percent for every year someone is on it down to 50% after 5 years.

ntlbell

Taxipete29 wrote: »

And what if you are genuinely trying but just cant get a job which in the current climate is not beyond the realms of possibility

Rubbish.

There's plenty of work if people want to work.

but people are not getting it into their skulls that this is for real.

picking and choosing, you get out there and do whatever work you can get.

people in this country are still snigegring at the thought of working for a fast food chain, or laugh uncontrolably when you suggest a bucket of water and a ladder.

you do what you have to put the bread on the table.

this "i'm too good for that" attitude will have to go.

it was the same in the 80's; good, honest hard workers always found work.

dresden8

ntlbell wrote: »

you do what you have to put the bread on the table.

this "i'm too good for that" attitude will have to go.

it was the same in the 80's; good, honest hard workers always found work.

Indeed.

My first job involved sweeping the floor in a supermarket for 6 months.

Now I answer parliamentary question and representations from idiot TDs.

My first job was more honest and accomplished more of real value.

johnnyjb

cm2000 ,

Im unemployed for months.What am i to do, walk around everyday asking people for jobs.It doesnt work like that anymore.400 000 wouldnt be scratching there crotch if its that easy.

I would go back to work for the minimum wage.i was earning hundreds last year.I would love to get out there and earn more than im currently on 204 euro.Some people think that 400 000 people decided to take a year off.I think these people are just afraid that if we dont cut the welfare it will some how affect them or there jobs.If you are on 204 euro trust me its hard.There are families with mortages and children and are gonna lose there homes.

This is not about people having less money for drink so they can only go out one night of the weekend,its serious

There was always spongers on the welfare.The government just didnt bother monitering the system cause they were to busy with voting machines,decentralisation and berty bowl so now cant tell who is a sponger and who is just unlucky to be out of work

lmimmfn

johnnyjb wrote: »

cm2000 ,

Im unemployed for months.What am i to do, walk around everyday asking people for jobs.It doesnt work like that anymore.400 000 wouldnt be scratching there crotch if its that easy.

I would go back to work for the minimum wage.i was earning hundreds last year.I would love to get out there and earn more than im currently on 204 euro.Some people think that 400 000 people decided to take a year off.I think these people are just afraid that if we dont cut the welfare it will some how affect them or there jobs.If you are on 204 euro trust me its hard.There are families with mortages and children and are gonna lose there homes.

This is not about people having less money for drink so they can only go out one night of the weekend,its serious

There was always spongers on the welfare.The government just didnt bother monitering the system cause they were to busy with voting machines,decentralisation and berty bowl so now cant tell who is a sponger and who is just unlucky to be out of work

what would you do in the uk on £70 a week?
Much as your situation sux, i do not understand how anyone couldnt live on 150euro a week, its insane. Ex rent, i spend 250euro a week, 50 of that is petrol for commuting to work. 30euro of that is for lunch for work, the rest of the money goes on food and bills, that includes my broadband( not a necessity if i was on the dole ), sky tv etc.

If youre on 204euro a week you should have your house taken off you and should be housed by the council in rented accomodation. Dole and paying a mortgage? WTF?

SLUSK

I saved alot of money and I receive no SW. We should scrap all SW and lower taxes.

johnnyjb

lmimmfn wrote: »

what would you do in the uk on £70 a week?
Much as your situation sux, i do not understand how anyone couldnt live on 150euro a week, its insane. Ex rent, i spend 250euro a week, 50 of that is petrol for commuting to work. 30euro of that is for lunch for work, the rest of the money goes on food and bills, that includes my broadband( not a necessity if i was on the dole ), sky tv etc.

If youre on 204euro a week you should have your house taken off you and should be housed by the council in rented accomodation. Dole and paying a mortgage? WTF?

Ye are all disillusioned.Any body could be out of work these days.What if we scrap welfare and thousands are on the street begging just cuz a few think were all lazy.Wouldnt it be "great" if you lost your job:mad: and you would be straight onto this forum complaining how the government doesnt help you after all years you paid your taxes.

I dont care about £70 welfare in uk because im irish.I worked since i was 15 and never was out of a job since this happened.It seems like some think only the most intelligent have been kept on , there are very highly educated people sitting at home these days.Come down off that high horse

ntlbell

johnnyjb wrote: »

cm2000 ,

Im unemployed for months.What am i to do, walk around everyday asking people for jobs.It doesnt work like that anymore.400 000 wouldnt be scratching there crotch if its that easy.

Who said it was easy? "walk around all day" no sit at home, a job will come in the letter box :rolleyes:

ntlbell

johnnyjb wrote: »

I dont care about £70 welfare in uk because im irish.I worked since i was 15 and never was out of a job since this happened.It seems like some think only the most intelligent have been kept on , there are very highly educated people sitting at home these days.Come down off that high horse

A guy i know landed in dublin on a saturday.

He was working the following Monday.

no 3rd level education, no specialist experience in anything.

Do you know why? cause he didn't go to the social and sign on as he could have, he was off his back side two hours after landing in Dublin airport.

people have had it easy for too long.

send out a few mails and get a load of job offers.

the days are over.

you need to "box clever"

Daithinski

Johnboymac wrote: »

comparison: married couple 5 qualifying children!
10 yrs sevice = take home pay of 550pw!

This is just silly. The majority people if they have kids only have one or two.

And on a different note I'd like to point out to all the "long suffering" workers who are complaining about SW payments and minimum wage, that if you got your wishes (lower these payments) what would happen is that you won't create any more jobs, but significantly you will just reduce the amount of money that the large pool of unemployed will work for.

The unemployed skilled workers (of which there are a lot) will theoretically come after your job and be prepared to do it for less than you. (This will probably happen anyway as regardless of what you think, dole money is not enough to survive on unless you live in a council house)

You would then end up on the dole, and you would be in receipt of a smaller amount (that you requested yourself).

Poetic justice. Bring it on.

The country needs jobs, not cuts in social welfare.

Daithinski

ntlbell wrote: »

A guy i know landed in dublin on a saturday.

He was working the following Monday.

no 3rd level education, no specialist experience in anything.

Ironically a person like this has an advantage over somebody with qualifications/skills, as the prospective employer would be afraid that the skilled applicant would leave as soon as something better came up. Rightly or wrongly, the employer would see the unskilled person as more likely to stick around for a while.

Most of the recently unemployed have skills, unfortunately in areas that aren't required anymore...

ntlbell

Daithinski wrote: »

Ironically a person like this has an advantage over somebody with qualifications/skills, as the prospective employer would be afraid that the skilled applicant would leave as soon as something better came up. Rightly or wrongly, the employer would see the unskilled person as more likely to stick around for a while.

Most of the recently unemployed have skills, unfortunately in areas that aren't required anymore...

there's that argument.

I also know lots of people in IT with lots of exp qualifications who have been let go and again, didn't sit around.

some went back into IT some took a big reduction in pay to do what would be regarded as low end jobs.

there education or lack of was nothing to do with getting or not getting.

their attitude to getting a is why they're working.

they didn't wait for the same type of job, didn't wait to demand the same wages.

they put themselves out there, knocked on doors, cold calling made use of contacts and networks etc

It doesn't take a genius

sitting down banging blind mails to recruitment agencies is not the way to go now you have to change your tactics AND your expectations

there is work.

i have said before on various forums we're constantly hiring and can't get the staff.

Rantan

lmimmfn wrote: »

what would you do in the uk on £70 a week?
Much as your situation sux, i do not understand how anyone couldnt live on 150euro a week, its insane. Ex rent, i spend 250euro a week, 50 of that is petrol for commuting to work. 30euro of that is for lunch for work, the rest of the money goes on food and bills, that includes my broadband( not a necessity if i was on the dole ), sky tv etc.

If youre on 204euro a week you should have your house taken off you and should be housed by the council in rented accomodation. Dole and paying a mortgage? WTF?

Now I think you are just taking the piss. You sound kind of young and haven;t a clue, maybe I'm wrong about that.
So any one who loses their job should get their house repossessd, is that what you are saying? Have you ever been out of work by the way?

ntlbell

Rantan wrote: »

Now I think you are just taking the piss. You sound kind of young and haven;t a clue, maybe I'm wrong about that.
So any one who loses their job should get their house repossessd, is that what you are saying? Have you ever been out of work by the way?

isn't that the risk you take when taking out such a huge loan?

maybe if people looked at how they're going to re-pay should they lose their job or have reduced income into consideration before buying

or you know...god forbid...rent...

buying a home is not some sort of right.

bbam

lmimmfn wrote: »

If youre on 204euro a week you should have your house taken off you and should be housed by the council in rented accomodation. Dole and paying a mortgage? WTF?

This is just absurd rubbish...
People have entitlements, some have paid high rates of tax/prsi for decades so why shouldn't they be supported through a hard time if they are unfortunate enough to be out of a job.
It's a** hole attitudeds like this that think it is all right to walk on the small and less fortunite in society.

Rantan

Daithinski wrote: »

Ironically a person like this has an advantage over somebody with qualifications/skills, as the prospective employer would be afraid that the skilled applicant would leave as soon as something better came up. Rightly or wrongly, the employer would see the unskilled person as more likely to stick around for a while.

Most of the recently unemployed have skills, unfortunately in areas that aren't required anymore...

Very relavent point here and one I can relate with - since I got my notice 4 weeks ago I have applied for loads of jobs, not fussy, most involve 30 - 40 % paycut. I have been told by a few agencies that I am overqualified for many of these jobs, and that might actually stand against me!