Michael O'Leary: I'd cut 20 billion

_Kooli_

am i bovvered wrote: »

This is the problem !!!! at the end of their career they are supposed to be the average person.... a teacher (principle) or a gaurd (sergeant) all the middle management of all departments, in every society they are supossed to be the average person.
The pay and pension at the later stages of their career is way out of kilter with whats going on in the real world.
I don't want to get personal but 2 friends of mine both admit privately that their present +€60k salary and €100,000 lump sum in the next 2 years and the high weekly pension is excessive !!!! and certainly not the average.

At the end of their career they are anything but average. They are 40 year experienced professionals. They have given 40 years of their lives to you and I.

I never believe anyone who says that they think their own wages/pension etc is excessive. We all think we are worth what we get paid. When they go to their boss and ask for a salary cut because they are paid too much, then i'll believe them

Just the same as i dont believe anyone who says who says their bonus was excessive. I never refused a bonus .... ever. If i didnt get one id find another job, because i would be of the view that my employer doesnt appreciate me.

Im expecting a better pension that €60k plus a €100k lump sum myself.
Why? Because i made sure i am looked after for my retirement when it comes.

Private pension is actually much better than a public sector pension if you do the sums where they put what is taken for their pension into the private pension and allow them to get the state pension too. But the public sector cant opt out. Tough on them, but lets not pretend that they are better off than us in the private sector. Some of them are, some arent.

OMD

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Private pension is actually much better than a public sector pension if you do the sums where they put what is taken for their pension into the private pension and allow them to get the state pension too. But the public sector cant opt out. Tough on them, but lets not pretend that they are better off than us in the private sector. Some of them are, some arent.

I am afraid this is not true. Everybody knows this. The government should allow all public servants opt out of public sector pensions and we will see what happens.

Tipp Man

OMD wrote: »

I am afraid this is not true. Everybody knows this. The government should allow all public servants opt out of public sector pensions and we will see what happens.

The government should have the same as most private sector pensions, match the employees contribution up to 5% and let the employee contrbute more if they want to

PS would think its great till they get to retirement age, see what comes out of it

Tipp Man

I'd love to see O'Leary in charge of this country for next 2 years, if we are honest with ourselves he's exactly what we need

_Kooli_

OMD wrote: »

I am afraid this is not true. Everybody knows this. The government should allow all public servants opt out of public sector pensions and we will see what happens.

Im afraid it is true.
Check it out.
We all know the reason they wont let them opt out too. Because the annual take from the ps pension contributions is enourmous. Its just extra revenue into the govt coffers that doesnt have to be paid out til retirement. The govt started spending this and now must go on collecting it, because they use it like a credit card.

OMD

am i bovvered wrote: »

This point is getting very tiresome..... not one person I know in the private sector has a problem with frontline medical staff.
.

Well I do. I believe Irish nurses are way overpaid. We have one of the youngest populations in Europe so consequently we have a population that needs the health service very little compared to other countries. Yet we have one of the largest number of nurses per head of population and then we pay these nurses more than other countries.

An average nurse working 37.5 hours a week can expect on day one to earn €36,000 a year. After 7 years and no promotions he/she can expect to earn just shy of €50,000 a year. A similar nurse in UK after 7 years can expect to earn a little over £25,000

Dr Galen

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'd love to see O'Leary in charge of this country for next 2 years, if we are honest with ourselves he's exactly what we need

so could i ask what are the 5 things you think he'd do once in office? you don't have to agree or disagree with them, just your thoughts

OMD

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Im afraid it is true.
Check it out.
We all know the reason they wont let them opt out too. Because the annual take from the ps pension contributions is enourmous. Its just extra revenue into the govt coffers that doesnt have to be paid out til retirement. The govt started spending this and now must go on collecting it, because they use it like a credit card.

OK Kooli, you disagree with everyone even the unions who accept Public service pensions are higher on average. Show me where you work it out that it is untrue.

seangal

so the people of ireland what the country ran like ryanair?
If so be ready to pay for each breath of fresh air you breath

Seth Brundle

Just out of curiosity, since, teachers, nurses, etc. are being accused of being overpaid, who here, working in the private sector, will openly admit that they are overpaid when compared to other countries? Will you happily agree to a pay reduction to that of your European counterparts?

For those in the private sector, who deny that they are overpaid compared to other European countries, would you be happy to work in ireland at the rates paid elsewhere in Europe?

_Kooli_

Tipp Man wrote: »

The government should have the same as most private sector pensions, match the employees contribution up to 5% and let the employee contrbute more if they want to

PS would think its great till they get to retirement age, see what comes out of it

Dont even match their contribution. Give them back the 10% - 15% they contribute now and allow them to collect the state pension on top of their private pension just like the rest of us.

They can pay into a private pension or keep their money, but at least they have the choice, like the rest of us.

You should see what kind of pension that gives you. Way better than the current public pension.

Dr Galen

OMD wrote: »

Well I do. I believe Irish nurses are way overpaid. We have one of the youngest populations in Europe so consequently we have a population that needs the health service very little compared to other countries. Yet we have one of the largest number of nurses per head of population and then we pay these nurses more than other countries.

An average nurse working 37.5 hours a week can expect on day one to earn €36,000 a year. After 7 years and no promotions he/she can expect to earn just shy of €50,000 a year. A similar nurse in UK after 7 years can expect to earn a little over £25,000

thats being a bit liberal with the figures tbh

Year 1 Staff Nurse salary point = 31,875
Year 10 Staff Nurse salary point = 45,102

which is quite different to what the numbers your quoting.

as for your thoughts on the number of nurses per head of population, well your kinda half right there, but using a direct comparison like this is disingenuous, as other healthcare systems are structured differently. For example we have a large number of smaller "community" hospitals and long term care facilities than say the UK or France. Also due to the population distribution in this country we would have a higher per capita ratio of Public Health Nurses than say the UK, put this together and it skews the figures. There are other various reasons that a direct headcount number comparison with a healthcare system like the Dutch model doesn't work either, but I'd say it'd be getting a bit OT. Your welcome to drop over to Health Sciences though and start that discussion there

_Kooli_

OMD wrote: »

OK Kooli, you disagree with everyone even the unions who accept Public service pensions are higher on average. Show me where you work it out that it is untrue.

try pensionsboard.ie
Put in whatever you like and compare like with like.
So if you had public sector worker someone on €40k who pays 14% to their pension. Put that 14% into the calculator on pensionsboard.ie over 40 years and add the state pension and see what you get.

Do post what you get back here for us. Every time i post the figures people ignore them. I ask them to work them out themselves and they just dry up and forget the topic. I presume because the figures are not what they expected so they would rather not talk about it anymore

And for all those who think that their private pensions are doing badly. Get an up to date valuation. There have been huge gains in the last 9 months or so. Most valuations that people have now are from April - the lowest point.

Gurgle

OMD wrote: »

An average nurse working 37.5 hours a week can expect on day one to earn €36,000 a year.

Yep, thats about average for any professional graduate.

OMD wrote: »

After 7 years and no promotions he/she can expect to earn just shy of €50,000 a year.

Got any facts and figures to back this one up?

OMD

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Dont even match their contribution. Give them back the 10% - 15% they contribute now and allow them to collect the state pension on top of their private pension just like the rest of us.

They can pay into a private pension or keep their money, but at least they have the choice, like the rest of us.

You should see what kind of pension that gives you. Way better than the current public pension.

Kooli I think you are missing 2 very important points.
1 Pensions are based on final salary. So say average teacher will have 25 seperate pay increments if you assume they are never promoted. So they start by paying 13% of year 1 salary (32,600) and increase every year but they get a pension based on final salary ie €63,300

2 You have to allow for the tax free lump sum allowance. So again taking the teacher for example. Not only will he get a pension of 31,700 but will get a tax free lump sum of just under €100,000

OMD

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

thats being a bit liberal with the figures tbh

Year 1 Staff Nurse salary point = 31,875
Year 10 Staff Nurse salary point = 45,102

which is quite different to what the numbers your quoting.

as for your thoughts on the number of nurses per head of population, well your kinda half right there, but using a direct comparison like this is disingenuous, as other healthcare systems are structured differently. For example we have a large number of smaller "community" hospitals and long term care facilities than say the UK or France. Also due to the population distribution in this country we would have a higher per capita ratio of Public Health Nurses than say the UK, put this together and it skews the figures. There are other various reasons that a direct headcount number comparison with a healthcare system like the Dutch model doesn't work either, but I'd say it'd be getting a bit OT. Your welcome to drop over to Health Sciences though and start that discussion there

Average nurse works 37.5 hours a week. One in 7 of those hours is worked on a Sunday (not overtime just part of normal working week). This is paid at double time so starting pay is about 35,000 for a normal 37.5 hour week. Likewise after seven years the pay is just shy of €50,000.

OMD

Gurgle wrote: »

Yep, thats about average for any professional graduate.

Got any facts and figures to back this one up?

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

Also added allowances
http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=4680&mid=6977

and

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=4681&mid=6977

And as I said double pay for working Sundays as part of your normal working week and an extra payment for working Saturday.

Seth Brundle

Nursing Salaries...
http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

(don't ask me what they mean!)

mikemac

Gurgle wrote: »

Yep, thats about average for any professional graduate.

You reckon any graduate leaving college into a professional job has an average starting salary of 36k?
Or have I misread your post?

_Kooli_

OMD wrote: »

Kooli I think you are missing 2 very important points.
1 Pensions are based on final salary. So say average teacher will have 25 seperate pay increments if you assume they are never promoted. So they start by paying 13% of year 1 salary (32,600) and increase every year but they get a pension based on final salary ie €63,300

2 You have to allow for the tax free lump sum allowance. So again taking the teacher for example. Not only will he get a pension of 31,700 but will get a tax free lump sum of just under €100,000

Ah, so the figures didnt add up to what you thought, so now you are bailing on your challenge. I understand. Everyone gets a shock when they work it out and find that a private pension would have a better return than the public pension.

The pensions board site will work those things you have mentioned above out for you too.

And as for increments. On average i think its safe to assume that a private sector worker would increase their salary by much the same or even more than those increments as they went through their career and gained more experience, making them more valuable.

OMD

mikemac wrote: »

You reckon any graduate leaving college into a professional job has an average starting salary of 36k?
Or have I misread your post?

http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/articleview-3a_285.aspx

Just a survey but they put starting salary at €27224

Highest starting salary is in IT and Engineering at €28000

OMD

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Ah, so the figures didnt add up to what you thought, so now you are bailing on your challenge. I understand. Everyone gets a shock when they work it out and find that a private pension would have a better return than the public pension.

The pensions board site will work those things you have mentioned above out for you too.

And as for increments. On average i think its safe to assume that a private sector worker would increase their salary by much the same or even more than those increments as they went through their career and gained more experience, making them more valuable.

Kooli it doesn't. I have no shock. You are wrong. You are ignoring the lump sum and the pay increments.

_Kooli_

mikemac wrote: »

You reckon any graduate leaving college into a professional job has an average starting salary of 36k?
Or have I misread your post?

Id say thats in the ballpark for most grads. Though we arent really taking on any grads right now, but will be again soon enough.

Though for certain sectors it would be much less than that. It all depends on what business you are going into.

Kids, pay attentions to your career and pick the most lucrative

_Kooli_

OMD wrote: »

Kooli it doesn't. I have no shock. You are wrong. You are ignoring the lump sum and the pay increments.

:rolleyes:


** Entitlement to a full contributory state social welfare pension is assumed and is included as part of the target pension. The current state social welfare pension is €11,976 per year (or €230.30 per week) as of January 2009.

Tax Relief: Do you know that contributions paid to a pension scheme will benefit from income tax relief at your highest rate of tax?

Tax Relief Example: If you contribute € 100 per week to your pension and you pay tax at the higher rate (i.e. 41%), the net cost to you works out at € 59 per week.

Additional Relief: Contributions will also be relieved from PRSI and the Health levy, if you pay these charges.

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The next step is to talk to your employer, trade union, bank, insurance company, building society or financial advisor about starting your pension today.

Click here for Pensions Checklist

NOTES

1. Assumptions used: Investment return will be 5% per year before age 65 and 4% per year after age 65
Salary will increase at 3% per year
Pension will increase at 2% per year in retirement.
The State Pension will increase in line with salary increases.
A spouses' pension on death in retirement of 50% of the personal pension is included.
Mortality post-retirement is assumed to be in line with 52% of the PNMA00 table for males and 60% of the PNFA00 table for females with allowance for future improvements in mortality. This is the mortality assumption that is currently recommended by actuarial guidance in Ireland.
2. Contribution amounts shown will increase each year as salary increases.
3. This pensions calculator is designed to give a broad indication of the level of contributions required to give the desired pension at age 65.
4. The actual pension at retirement will depend on actual investment return and salary inflation up to retirement and on the cost of purchasing annuities at retirement.
5. Tax relief calculations take account of age related limits on tax relief in any given year as prescribed by the Revenue. Your financial advisor will be able to help you to stay within your limits. The maximum tax relief as a % of earnings are as follows:
* Under 30: 15%
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6. The maximum contribution that is allowable by the Revenue for tax relief purposes, given your age, is 15 percent of your net relevant earnings. Revenue have set a limit for determining maximum net relevant earnings for pension purposes at €150,000 for 2009. Contributions made in excess of these limits may not receive tax relief.
7. Contributions or benefits may exceed limits prescribed by the Revenue. Your financial advisor will be able to help you to stay within your limits.
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9. The annuity rate used to convert your pension fund at retirement age is a long term average annuity rate. The actual annuity rate at retirement may differ from the annuity used in the illustration above.

marco_polo

kbannon wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, since, teachers, nurses, etc. are being accused of being overpaid, who here will openly admit that they are overpaid when compared to other countries? Will you happily agree to a pay reduction to that of your European counterparts?

For those who deny that they are overpaid compared to other European countries, would you be happy to work in ireland at the rates paid elsewhere in Europe?

If any private sector workers were working for a company modeled on Ireland Inc. there would be no need to take a pay cut, as they would have gone out of business long ago.

Incidently the closest private sector match would probably be Aer Lingus, a company that are paying for their staffs high, union protected conditions, out of their cash reserves at a rate of some 400 million a year
.

Tipp Man

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so could i ask what are the 5 things you think he'd do once in office? you don't have to agree or disagree with them, just your thoughts

Good question:

1) reduce public sector numbers dramatically (thousands)
2) reduce public sector pay (by a good bit 20%??)
3) reduce social welfare (by a good bit 20% or more??)
4) tackle the unions with regards to public sector reform which just hasn't happened
5) introduce incentives to develop and expand Irish companies (some might say we have this in the enterprise boards) and get us back producing and exporting stuff

I reckon he'd get to at least 4 of these items

Seth Brundle

marco_polo wrote: »

If any private sector workers were working for a company modeled on Ireland Inc. there would be no need to take a pay cut, as they would have gone out of business long ago.

Incidently the closest private sector match would probably be Aer Lingus, a company that are paying for their staffs high, union protected conditions, out of their cash reserves at a rate of some 400 million a year
.

Cheers - I was actually meaning private sector though (of which I am a member).
I've amended the post accordingly.

Tipp Man

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

thats being a bit liberal with the figures tbh

Year 1 Staff Nurse salary point = 31,875
Year 10 Staff Nurse salary point = 45,102

which is quite different to what the numbers your quoting.

Are you not just quoting the basic salary there?? Have you included the allowances for shift work, saturdays, sundays, bank holidays etc??

OMD

_Kooli_ wrote: »

:rolleyes:


.

OK Kooli. Lets take the teacher again. On day 1 lets say she is aged 25. She is earning €32599. She wants to retire with a lump sum of €95,000 and have a pension of €31,680 after 40 years. How much should she pay into her pension. Now use your pension calculator and tell me please.

jimmmy

marco_polo wrote: »

Incidently the closest private sector match would probably be Aer Lingus, a company that are paying for their staffs high, union protected conditions, out of their cash reserves at a rate of some 400 million a year
.

I remember many a time in the late seventies / early eighties having to pay Aer Lingus a few hundred quid a time ( a fortune back then ) to fly to and from England. That is the value to the consumer what a unionised monopoly produced then, and the current public service is the value to the taxpayer what a unionised monopoly produces now. If the government and the unions tried up set up an airline I wonder how far they would get. Thank God for Ryanair. One of the few great Irish success stories, and one of the few great home grown businesses to come out of Ireland over the past few decades.