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Michael O'Leary: I'd cut 20 billion

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    #92
    _Kooli_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭_Kooli_


    OMD wrote: »
    OK Kooli. Lets take the teacher again. On day 1 lets say she is aged 25. She is earning €32599. She wants to retire with a lump sum of €95,000 and have a pension of €31,680. How much should she pay into her pension. Now use your pension calculator and tell me please.

    I have given you what you need to do it.
    Go and work it out. Teach a man to fish ........

    Hint:
    Remember €12000 state pension is added to it, so they only need to get to €20,000 a year by the time they retire to get to your figure.

    Dont limit yourself to one calculator. There are hundreds out their. www.quinn-ife.ie etc.

    Happy learning.
    Knock yourself out.


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    #93
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    OMD wrote: »
    Average nurse works 37.5 hours a week. One in 7 of those hours is worked on a Sunday (not overtime just part of normal working week). This is paid at double time so starting pay is about 35,000 for a normal 37.5 hour week. Likewise after seven years the pay is just shy of €50,000.

    how are you working this out? are you suggesting that every nurse works every Sunday? if you could clarify this that'd be great?


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    #94
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Are you not just quoting the basic salary there?? Have you included the allowances for shift work, saturdays, sundays, bank holidays etc??

    indeed i am just quoting basic salaries, because that we have as a factual number. I could pull random numbers out of the sky, but that would serve no purpose. To generalise across a whole sector as diverse, and with such differing working patterns as nursing is futile. You could if wanted break it down for individual sub-sections of the nursing population, but i doubt very much that those numbers exist


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    #95
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    _Kooli_ wrote: »
    I have given you what you need to do it.
    Go and work it out. Teach a man to fish ........

    Hint:
    Remember €12000 state pension is added to it, so they only need to get to €20,000 a year by the time they retire to get to your figure.

    Dont limit yourself to one calculator. There are hundreds out their. www.quinn-ife.ie etc.

    Happy learning.
    Knock yourself out.

    Well Kooli I asked you to do it because obviously the pension board won't let you enter such crazy figures.

    If you take her average salary at 48K a year, then to get a pension of 32,000 (including state pension) then she would have to put in 16% of her salary (which is more than teachers currently pay). However at this 16% of salary she will get no lump sum.


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    #96
    _Kooli_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭_Kooli_


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    how are you working this out? are you suggesting that every nurse works every Sunday? if you could clarify this that'd be great?

    You wouldnt catch me working Saturdays or Sundays unless i was paid handsomely for it or working over my contracted 37.5 hours a week. Are we to all work for free now when our employer feels like taking the piss?

    If that was expected of me at my current company, i would be moving to a different company sharpish.


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    #97
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    _Kooli_ wrote: »
    You wouldnt catch me working Saturdays or Sundays unless i was paid handsomely for it or working over my contracted 37.5 hours a week.

    That's the point. It isn't over the "contracted 37.5 hours a week" and they are paid handsomely for it. Double pay for Sundays.


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    #98
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    indeed i am just quoting basic salaries, because that we have as a factual number. I could pull random numbers out of the sky, but that would serve no purpose. To generalise across a whole sector as diverse, and with such differing working patterns as nursing is futile. You could if wanted break it down for individual sub-sections of the nursing population, but i doubt very much that those numbers exist

    Isn't that a problem though with a lot of PS jobs, they have basic salary and then allowances for a whole range of things making it impossible to give any accurate data apart from the basic. and the allowances are a huge part of salary, see teaching as a perfect example. this for me is a very cute tactic of making it seem staff are paid lower than they actually are.

    so on the figures quoted you are correct with the starting salary but OMD is probably more correct in that very few (if any??) are getting just the basic salary and are therefore closer to 35k??


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    #99
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    you'd think so Kooli

    I've worked in both public and private sector jobs over the years, and have always received extra pay for working Sundays along with allowances for outside contracted hours, be that extra pay or time in lieu. The Dickensian situation put forward by certain posters is not necessarily the norm out there


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    #100
    _Kooli_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭_Kooli_


    OMD wrote: »
    Well Kooli I asked you to do it because obviously the pension board won't let you enter such crazy figures.

    If you take her average salary at 48K a year, then to get a pension of 32,000 (including state pension) then she would have to put in 16% of her salary (which is more than teachers currently pay). However at this 16% of salary she will get no lump sum.

    You need to find out how to do it. There are different options. Use your head. Im not going to do it for you, because as ive said, ive wasted time before doing the calculations for people, who should be smart enough to do it for themselves only to have them ignore the results.
    You sound smart enough, find a way. Even try different pension calculators if you have to. Its called problem solving. Sometimes you have to do that in real life. Its a skill.

    Look at it this way. If you do it and you are right and then publish the results here you will prove you are right beyond doubt. Im positive that wont happen though.


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    #101
    _Kooli_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭_Kooli_


    OMD wrote: »
    That's the point. It isn't over the "contracted 37.5 hours a week" and they are paid handsomely for it. Double pay for Sundays.

    ????

    So no nurse works the full contracted time during the week if they end up working on a Sunday?

    I find that hard to believe.
    Do you have any proof?

    I get double pay for Sundays. 1.5 for Saturdays. Even if i dont work 37.5 hours during the week. Whats the big deal?
    If people want to let their employers abuse them then by all means, bend over and let them ride you.


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    #102
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Isn't that a problem though with a lot of PS jobs, they have basic salary and then allowances for a whole range of things making it impossible to give any accurate data apart from the basic.

    i'd agree there in that it can be very hard to build up an accurate picture of real wage costs because of allowances etc. Instead we're left with half truths and rumours.
    so on the figures quoted you are correct with the starting salary but OMD is probably more correct in that very few (if any??) are getting just the basic salary and are therefore closer to 35k??

    well to use an example, many nurses won't be doing weekends, as they work in Monday to Friday units, they also won't be doing nights, so won't qualify for that allowance either.

    I'm not saying that if a nurse worked plenty of weekends and nights they wouldn't do well. What I am saying is that you can't make sweeping generalisations for a whole population of workers


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    #103
    diverdriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    drkpower wrote: »
    Not the nurses; most are on a standard 39 hour week (possibly less) with very structured and protected breaks.
    Agreed but It's less and many are part timers too. There are very few few 'front line' if any, staff working a standard 40 hour week. It's not as if we expect them them too but let's get real here. If they work a 40 hour week they get paid overtime. I know most work shift but somehow apparently this precludes them doing a full week's work.


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    #104
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »

    I'm not saying that if a nurse worked plenty of weekends and nights they wouldn't do well. What I am saying is that you can't make sweeping generalisations for a whole population of workers

    I did not make sweeping generalisations. I said:

    "An average nurse working 37.5 hours a week can expect on day one to earn €36,000 a year. After 7 years and no promotions he/she can expect to earn just shy of €50,000 a year. A similar nurse in UK after 7 years can expect to earn a little over £25,000 "

    We are talking averages. I stand over these figures as averages. Of course as you say many nurses may earn substantially more. Do you think my figures for average pay are fair? If not why not?


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    #105
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    _Kooli_ wrote: »
    You need to find out how to do it. There are different options. Use your head. Im not going to do it for you, because as ive said, ive wasted time before doing the calculations for people, who should be smart enough to do it for themselves only to have them ignore the results.
    You sound smart enough, find a way. Even try different pension calculators if you have to. Its called problem solving. Sometimes you have to do that in real life. Its a skill.

    Look at it this way. If you do it and you are right and then publish the results here you will prove you are right beyond doubt. Im positive that wont happen though.

    Surely the point is though that the PS pension is guaranteed, they know exactly what they are getting no matter what happens to the economy, the world economy, whatever it doesn't matter. Now look at how many private sector pensions have crashed in last 2 years

    also their employment is guaranteed, a private worker isn't. so it is possible/probable that a private worker could spend a few years unemployed, between jobs etc with no pension contributions

    So can you put a price on the fact that the penion and job are guaranteed for life versus the risk of unemployment and your pension collapsing when you are close to retirement age (my pension pot fell by more than 30 between 2007 and june 09)

    Can you put a price on the guarantees??


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    #106
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    OMD wrote: »
    I did not make sweeping generalisations. I said:

    "An average nurse working 37.5 hours a week can expect on day one to earn €36,000 a year. After 7 years and no promotions he/she can expect to earn just shy of €50,000 a year. A similar nurse in UK after 7 years can expect to earn a little over £25,000 "

    We are talking averages. I stand over these figures as averages. Of course as you say many nurses may earn substantially more. Do you think my figures for average pay are fair? If not why not?

    ahhhh that average word again

    what your actually doing is using your definition of average. Your taking the base salary and adding " a bit" on. That's hardly rigorous now is it?

    A better method looking at these kind of things would be to take median wages levels but thats not as easy to work out.


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    #107
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    _Kooli_ wrote: »
    Look at it this way. If you do it and you are right and then publish the results here you will prove you are right beyond doubt. Im positive that wont happen though.

    I did it already.

    "If you take her average salary at 48K a year, then to get a pension of 32,000 (including state pension) then she would have to put in 16% of her salary (which is more than teachers currently pay). However at this 16% of salary she will get no lump sum. "


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    #108
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    ahhhh that average word again

    what your actually doing is using your definition of average. Your taking the base salary and adding " a bit" on. That's hardly rigorous now is it?

    A better method looking at these kind of things would be to take median wages levels but thats not as easy to work out.

    No I am saying the average nurse works 1 in 7 Sundays. To allow for those who don't I excluded all other allowances. We could work average pay by looking at how much government pays on Nurses salaries and divide by number of WTE nurses but that gives a figure over €60K. I'm sure you would disagree with that figure also.


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    #109
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    OMD wrote: »
    No I am saying the average nurse works 1 in 7 Sundays.

    and what are you basing that assumption on?


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    #110
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    OMD wrote: »
    We could work average pay by looking at how much government pays on Nurses salaries and divide by number of WTE nurses but that gives a figure over €60K. I'm sure you would disagree with that figure also.

    if I could see the working out (Leaving Cert style) and that was the average figure then how could i disagree?

    Would I agree that averages are the best way to dissect salary levels? No, and that holds true for every sector, both public and private


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    #111
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    if I could see the working out (Leaving Cert style) and that was the average figure then how could i disagree?

    Would I agree that averages are the best way to dissect salary levels? No, and that holds true for every sector, both public and private

    Well it depends, if you were to average the whole health service it would be unfair on nurses to include brain surgons etc

    However if you were to give an average just for nurses then i think this is very benificial as it would include all allowances and is more accurate than just giving the basic salary scale. Does anybody have the average nurses salary??


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    #112
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Good question:

    1) reduce public sector numbers dramatically (thousands)
    2) reduce public sector pay (by a good bit 20%??)
    3) reduce social welfare (by a good bit 20% or more??)
    4) tackle the unions with regards to public sector reform which just hasn't happened
    5) introduce incentives to develop and expand Irish companies (some might say we have this in the enterprise boards) and get us back producing and exporting stuff

    I reckon he'd get to at least 4 of these items

    sorry TM this got a bit lost

    thanks for the answer. some of which I agree with.

    Public sector reform is probably the one I agree with most tbh. I think that in itself could take care of the first 3 points, though not quickly enough to remedy the current crisis. Facing down the unions has to be a part of this, and will allow for real reform, not just token populist bull. Value for money is what we need, not swinging cuts just to satisfy the chattering Indo reading classes.

    Your last point is also something that I think deserves credit. I hear nothing from Coughlan regarding supporting indigenous enterprise, and keeping wealth within our own borders. That doesn't mean draconian tax rates for those with a few euro in their pocket, but rather schemes to allow those people to reinvest their cash in exportable and necessary industries


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    #113
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    sorry TM this got a bit lost

    thanks for the answer. some of which I agree with.

    Public sector reform is probably the one I agree with most tbh. I think that in itself could take care of the first 3 points, though not quickly enough to remedy the current crisis. Facing down the unions has to be a part of this, and will allow for real reform, not just token populist bull. Value for money is what we need, not swinging cuts just to satisfy the chattering Indo reading classes.

    thanks and you are dead right, deal with PS reform and the rest will follow


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    #114
    seangal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    kbannon wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, since, teachers, nurses, etc. are being accused of being overpaid, who here, working in the private sector, will openly admit that they are overpaid when compared to other countries? Will you happily agree to a pay reduction to that of your European counterparts?

    For those in the private sector, who deny that they are overpaid compared to other European countries, would you be happy to work in ireland at the rates paid elsewhere in Europe?
    you should go and ask the dell workers were they overpaid and they would answer yes hence Dell moved to poland
    I remember people on about leaving one company to go to another and getting a 10k pay rise
    Greed greed greed in the private sector


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    #115
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,438 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    seangal wrote: »
    you should go and ask the dell workers were they overpaid and they would answer yes hence Dell moved to poland
    I remember people on about leaving one company to go to another and getting a 10k pay rise
    Greed greed greed in the private sector


    Really? Because Dell workers would say they were underpaid in comparison to other companies..
    And going to another company and getting a 10k grand is not greed...the company is paying you the market value for your job skills.
    A fact which is completely lost on the public sector.
    There's a huge difference between moving to a new job in new company and gettign a 10K rise than there is in getting benchmarked payrises every year for sitting on your holes in the public sector....so tell me..where is the greediness now? I've no problem with performance related payrises..that's the way we work in the private sector..however every tom, dick and harry gets a payrise in the PS..including the useless lazy ones..


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    #116
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    seangal wrote: »
    you should go and ask the dell workers were they overpaid
    Most people in private industry think they are underpaid and overworked and have less security and far worse pensions and more stress compared to the Irish public service. Dell and Waterford Glass and Ford and everyone else can build their stuff elsewhere if they want to. What has the wage rates of people in a private sector company like Dell got to do with how Michael O'Leary would cut 20 billion of govt expenditure ? When there is 20 billion of waste in the system, no wonder the country is the way it is.


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    #117
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    The government should have the same as most private sector pensions, match the employees contribution up to 5% and let the employee contrbute more if they want to

    PS would think its great till they get to retirement age, see what comes out of it
    I've been saying this for ages now. Let the PS workers have a broadly similar defined contribution pension as can be found in any US multinational. It would save the country a fortune IMO.


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    #118
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    muboop1 wrote: »
    your belief without experiencing a job is just a that your belief, which you are totally entitled to. Having said that, it in no way gives your belief credibility as fact.

    Imagine working in a kids hospital in say an icu watching kid you've taken care of there entire lives die unfortunately quite regularly. Imagine having to stay strong day in and day out and comfort the parents, seeing half the crap we see in our worst nightmares.

    Nah feck it they get paid just fine! totally deserved.

    1st of all , they knew that the job entailed when they signed up , secondly , are those challenges any different to what nurses in the uk or germany face , no , the only difference is irish nurses earn at least 30% more


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    #119
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    am i bovvered wrote: »
    I do not feel any nurse or guard starting off in their profession are overpaid, the problem is that at the end of their career they are on huge wages with huge pensions compared to the average person.

    both start off close to the average industrial wage , nurses start on 31 k , guards above that


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    #120
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    OMD wrote: »
    Well I do. I believe Irish nurses are way overpaid. We have one of the youngest populations in Europe so consequently we have a population that needs the health service very little compared to other countries. Yet we have one of the largest number of nurses per head of population and then we pay these nurses more than other countries.

    An average nurse working 37.5 hours a week can expect on day one to earn €36,000 a year. After 7 years and no promotions he/she can expect to earn just shy of €50,000 a year. A similar nurse in UK after 7 years can expect to earn a little over £25,000

    sense or reason is rarely present in the equation when it comes to discussing nurses pay in ireland , if the average nurse earned 100k instead of 50 k per year , the majority if people would still say , they are worth every penny

    nurses have a uniquely special place in most irish peoples hearts , they are the most sacred of sacred cows , i believe this could be in many ways due to the fact that traditionally a large number of irish women beit when they went abroad or stayed at home , became nurses , therefore to criticise a nurse is to badmouth your own mother or grandmother


    ps , my mother is a retired nurse


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    #121
    ConsiderThis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭ConsiderThis


    murphaph wrote: »


    We need to act now for the sake of future generations.

    I am not sure I agree wit you. The problem is not that our public finances are in a complete mess (they are), the problem is that we keep voting in politicians who are unable to do anything other than take decisions which lead to this mess again and again and we, the electorate, seem to learn nothing.

    There is no reason that if we fix the finances now, that this will not happen again in x years time.

    What does that say about us as a country?


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