Why am I getting it in the ass??

DeVore

Here's my story.

I'm a 39 year old professional. I wont go into comparative salaries because I earn minimum wage because I chose a life of entrepreneurship and I'm happy with that. Thats not my beef.

But during the Silly Years, I tried to tell everyone who would listen that the housing market was ridiculously over stretched. I could easily have gotten a big mortage and bought a house and car (at the time I was consulting for decent cash) but I chose the pragmatic approach because I didnt like what I saw. I was prudent.

I'm not married, no kids. I didnt speculate on the stock market.

Now I'm being asked to shoulder the burden of people who wilfully borrowed more then they could repay, of banks who are have privatised their profits and socialised their losses.

NAMA is going to lock me into a higher tax band if I'm successful in my businesses and raise my taxes considerably even if I dont.

I'm not (just) whinging, i'm making the case for people like me who were RESPONSIBLE about our borrowings, our financial activities and our lives basically, but now still have to rescue everyone else seemingly.

I'm breakfast roll man I guess, but I have an option, my work allows me to work from anywhere (right now I'm sitting in a very recently acquired, modestly costed Maltese apartment).

I've always been nationalistic, I stuck it out in the 80's and early 90's working to build a better country but now?? Well now it seems like every man for himself.


I'm seriously wondering why I am returning to Ireland and have begun the process of seeking residency in Malta.

DeV.

chalkitdown

I think you have summed up the situation accurately. When the NAMA con fails the government will be compelled to introduce something similar for those that are over extended to avoid being lynched (well, spat at in the street given the sheepishness of the Irish).
Although I do think that a NAMA type plan on primary residences would have a good chance of working.
Malta sounds a much better risk than here, that's for sure.

Dirk Gently

Good post. I'm pretty much the same. was earning decent money till about a year ago and could have jumped on board the lemming train and bought over priced property. I was being offered loans and credit cards I didn't even apply for on a regular basis. I chose not to join in the madness as it was so obviously a debt economy that FF and the PD's were building over the past 10 years and not a sustainable one. Unfortunately a largely uneducated public bought into it. I'm in two minds on whether to blame the government as it's their job to manage the economy or whether to blame people for having no sense of reality. There is no excuse really in this day and age when info is readily available. It's all about boom and bust and models are available for every country going back a hundred years. Why did everyone feel Ireland was different? The resulting civil war between public and private workers makes me lean more towards blaming the people than the government though.

Now I'm down 20% in my wages compared to a year ago and all I hear is of people who were reckless whining about "where's my NAMA", basically looking for their own bail outs as well as the banks getting their bail out.

I'd like to add my voice to the list. Where's my NAMA? I want a lump sum deposited into my bank account. I don't owe anyone anything but if everyone else is getting free money for being silly then I think I deserve free money for not being silly, or at least exempt me from paying to clean up your mess.

mike65

Cut and run eh?

kippy

Well all thats going on isnt exactly a good advertisement for being prudent and smart with your money/investments.

The thing is, on could argue, that even if you didnt actively take part in the "boom" as such, you did in some way benefit from it. For example, through lower taxation, rates corpo tax etc etc etc.
A lot of the public sector say that they didnt participate in the boom but they actively benefited from it.

I do of course see the point of this post and understand where you are coming from, but we are in the boat we are in right now and we are all under pressure to keep it afloat.

ntlbell

Could you point us to a good EA in Malta?

erictheviking

I know how you feel. I worked my ass off for peanuts through the 80's and 90's believing that it would help build a better country and give me and my family a better life. All thats happened is the greedy gits that made all the money have taken it and invested it elsewhere. Now I'm being asked to work my ass off all over again plus take a pay cut plus work more hours. Why should I do it all over again? Whats in it for me?
I bought a house in the late 90's which even then I thought was overpriced. Even almost 10 years later its costing me over a 1/3 of my wages to cover the mortgage.
(Before any sneering gloating so and so starts posting patronising 'Why didn't you rent? Nobody forced you to buy!' .Like most people who buy a house they do so because their family needs a settled environment to live in. Its my home I'm not in it to make money unlike the money obsessed teeny boppers I see coming into the workforce these days.

So called celtic tiger did nothing for me. I have no assets (apart from my home) and my job.
I feel I made a big mistake staying here in the 80's. I should have legged it like most people.
People like me that stayed have had no thanks for all the hard work they put in yet the govt. expect us to bail them out yet again. Unbelievable!

old boy

when the ordinary joe soap is treated with the same gloss as the banker or developer this country will go places, i do not blame dev i actually admire his stance, why do ones best to ones family and country to be shafted, then look around and see the guys that shafted joe soap and the country being showered with reward.

AlekSmart

Unfortunately "the best educated young population in Europe" bought into it. I'm in two minds on whether to blame the government as it's their job to manage the economy or whether to blame people for having no sense of reality. There is no excuse really in this day and age when info is readily available.

There Y`are Clown bag...fixed that for you....:)

Zynks

I did succumb to buying property back in 2003, though I don't regret it yet, and realise I will probably fall into negative equity in the near future. That is fine since I bought a home, not an investment. Provided I manage to keep a reasonable income coming, I should be OK.

Having said that, DeVore is touching a very important point. Entrepreneurship is the only hope for this country. We need more entrepreneurs and investors and less speculators. I run my own business for several years and remember having discussions with the IDA (pre-EI) telling them they should focus more on creating Irish wealth through strong Irish businesses instead of focusing on creating so many jobs dependent in foreign companies. Of course, I failed badly at that...

Now 'foreign' jobs are increasingly under threat, mine being one of them, and we have so many debts at individual, private and public levels that we might end up digging a hole to hide our heads hoping that the NAMA soon-to-be disaster does not pan out as bad as it almost certainly will, while our disposable income is reduced to a few yo-yos in the best case, while the taxes go up year over year to sponsor ridiculous levels of never ending bank liquidity deficits.

DeVore seems to have it easy in deciding to leave. His commitment are limited and risks are low. I would probably do the same.

But, in my view there is a significant portion of the population the will find it even easier once they realise the benefits: The people who are in severe negative equity.

I'll give an example: this family bought a house and borrowed over 100% for a house in the middle of nowhere and have a €380k mortgage. Jobs lost, house worth maybe 100k if the bank takes it for a fire sale and they still don't understand how bankruptcy law works in this country.

As soon as they realise that their options are either to stay in this country with a debt of over 1/4 of a million without a home and interests that are likely to take most of their net income for the rest of their lifes, or get the f@#k out of here for ever and try to start from scratch somewhere where the debt collectors won't find them, I think they will find it a very attractive proposition to leg it.

At some stage there will have to be a major change in the rules of the game. The question is if they will occur before or after there is a critical exodus of productive, educated, tax paying individuals or after. If the latter case, start preparing to see a country turning from a wealthy role-model to a beggar.

dresden8

Zynks wrote: »

, start preparing to see a country turning from a wealthy role-model to a beggar.

Just two points, we were never wealthy and we were never a role-model.

I'm sure the Germans and French who had to listen to Bertie and co banging on about how successful we were, Europe's best economy and all that crap, are allowing themselve just a smidgeon of schadenfreude at the mo.

Zynks

dresden8 wrote: »

Just two points, we were never wealthy and we were never a role-model.

I agree completely. I am referring mostly to the perception than the fact - wasn't Bertie going around Latin America telling them they can be the next Ireland if they take his advice? And they were paying him for that, so the perception certainly was there.

helimachoptor

Ok, everybody can you do a new bookmark for Boards please Boards.ma

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hinault

DeVore wrote: »

Here's my story.

I'm a 39 year old professional. I wont go into comparative salaries because I earn minimum wage because I chose a life of entrepreneurship and I'm happy with that. Thats not my beef.

But during the Silly Years, I tried to tell everyone who would listen that the housing market was ridiculously over stretched. I could easily have gotten a big mortage and bought a house and car (at the time I was consulting for decent cash) but I chose the pragmatic approach because I didnt like what I saw. I was prudent.

I'm not married, no kids. I didnt speculate on the stock market.

Now I'm being asked to shoulder the burden of people who wilfully borrowed more then they could repay, of banks who are have privatised their profits and socialised their losses.

NAMA is going to lock me into a higher tax band if I'm successful in my businesses and raise my taxes considerably even if I dont.

I'm not (just) whinging, i'm making the case for people like me who were RESPONSIBLE about our borrowings, our financial activities and our lives basically, but now still have to rescue everyone else seemingly.

I'm breakfast roll man I guess, but I have an option, my work allows me to work from anywhere (right now I'm sitting in a very recently acquired, modestly costed Maltese apartment).

I've always been nationalistic, I stuck it out in the 80's and early 90's working to build a better country but now?? Well now it seems like every man for himself.


I'm seriously wondering why I am returning to Ireland and have begun the process of seeking residency in Malta.

DeV.

Like you, I stayed here through the 80/90's : worked all my life : my only borrowings are my mortgage : I avoided debt, paid my way.
Myself and my wife own our cars : we have a modest (by Celtic Tiger standards) house, with no personal debts.
We've plenty of cash in the bank - and we could pay off our entire 20 year mortgage tomorrow if necessary (we're 4 years in to our mortgage).

I probably bored people to death when I said in 2000 - 9 years ago - that property was overpriced.
I kept saying throughout the the entire decade that what we were seeing was flawed and would ultimately come back to bite us.
I was repeatedly told by the naysayers that I didn't know what I was talking about and that this economy was "the new way".

I can understand the anger of people when we (Joe Public) are being as asked to bail out this economy.
People like us paid our dues.
I am all for collective action - but I despair of a nation which continually re-elected the clowns who allowed this crisis to ferment.

Liam Byrne

Freaky! Right down to the age of the OP, I could have written the original post!

Maybe there was some cop-on being dished out in 1970!

Mind you, I don't have the Maltese option

But someone needs to kick the current fat-cats up the arse.

deRanged

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Freaky! Right down to the age of the OP, I could have written the original post!

me too, bar being a bit younger and I've not left yet. I don't really see any other option though.
I've no debt of my own, paid off every loan I ever took, and yet as of this afternoon I'm working to pay off NAMA? no thanks.

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And why would they say that? ...after all it was them that fanned the flames so that the stream of perks, brown envelopes and annual pay increases wouldn't dry up. Irresponsibility was governement policy ...now to be replaced by not accepting responsibility and (yet again) offloading it onto the few prudent eejits.

There is some logic in the madness though ...the prudent eejits are the only ones left to squeeze money out of.
All the other money has either gone "poof" or on holidays to the Cayman Islands or Liechtenstein

LoanShark

Anyone read the letter in todays Indo??
It was from a man who stated that he had no Sympathy for a guy who paid in the reigon of €700k for his house and now the value of the house has slumped and he is falling on hard times and cant pay the mortage..and that the man only bought the house to keep up with the jones'es..

So why should we have to bail out these kind of people who wanted to show off something they never actually had...Money!

I never bought a house or an appartment because I never believed i was getting value for money on any of them.. But I am now being asked to help bail out those who thought that having an appartment in a certain area was a status symbol rather than a neccessity? Where is the fairness in that? Because of the Fcuking around and greed of others I have to go through hoops to get a loan or a mortage (which I think should have been there at the very start to control all this!) but even at the end of it I still might not get anything!

I honestly do not blame this government (or the previous) for the mess we are in, and if we are all honest within ourselves we would admit that we in the sh!t because of our own wrong doing..

People bought property as investments, But what happens when too many invest in the same thing?? It looses value...

I believe the banks have far more to answer for than anything, but as indivudals we have to be accountable too..

kippy

LoanShark wrote: »

Anyone read the letter in todays Indo??
It was from a man who stated that he had no Sympathy for a guy who paid in the reigon of €700k for his house and now the value of the house has slumped and he is falling on hard times and cant pay the mortage..and that the man only bought the house to keep up with the jones'es..

So why should we have to bail out these kind of people who wanted to show off something they never actually had...Money!

I never bought a house or an appartment because I never believed i was getting value for money on any of them.. But I am now being asked to help bail out those who thought that having an appartment in a certain area was a status symbol rather than a neccessity? Where is the fairness in that? Because of the Fcuking around and greed of others I have to go through hoops to get a loan or a mortage (which I think should have been there at the very start to control all this!) but even at the end of it I still might not get anything!

I honestly do not blame this government (or the previous) for the mess we are in, and if we are all honest within ourselves we would admit that we in the sh!t because of our own wrong doing..

People bought property as investments, But what happens when too many invest in the same thing?? It looses value...

I believe the banks have far more to answer for than anything, but as indivudals we have to be accountable too..

You're username really doesn't lead itself well to posts such as this......

I do agree with the post however.

MysticalRain

LoanShark wrote: »

Anyone read the letter in todays Indo??
It was from a man who stated that he had no Sympathy for a guy who paid in the reigon of €700k for his house and now the value of the house has slumped and he is falling on hard times and cant pay the mortage..and that the man only bought the house to keep up with the jones'es..

So why should we have to bail out these kind of people who wanted to show off something they never actually had...Money!

Ah yes, the people who bought the big houses and SUVs during the height of the boom, and looked down on the rest of us who lived within our means. Not to mention accusing us of "talking down the economy" when we pointed out at the time how ridiculous the whole property bubble was. Now they expect us to bail them out. Well you made your bed. Now lie in it.

Of course many of the same idiots will still be voting FF back into power. "Ah, sure the other side are just as bad...".

LoanShark

MysticalRain wrote: »

Ah yes, the people who bought the big houses and SUVs during the height of the boom, and looked down on the rest of us who lived within our means. Not to mention accusing us of "talking down the economy" when we pointed out at the time how ridiculous the whole property bubble was. Now they expect us to bail them out. Well you made your bed. Now lie in it.

Yes, Those People! You know them?

Of course many of the same idiots will still be voting FF back into power. "Ah, sure the other side are just as bad...".
And your alternative would be???
At least have some courtesy to give us some insight to your thoughts.

MysticalRain

LoanShark wrote: »

Yes, Those People! You know them?

Of course many of the same idiots will still be voting FF back into power. "Ah, sure the other side are just as bad...".
And your alternative would be???
At least have some courtesy to give us some insight to your thoughts.

I knew plenty of them. Some of whom were even friends and family members caught up in the bubble mentality.

The only alternative is to roll the dice and vote in FF/Labour at the next available opportunity. Not that I'm a fan of either of those political parties. But we all know how another five years of FF will turn out for this country...

seclachi

No offence or anything, but theres a strong wiff of self righteousness in this thread. Dont get me wrong, I commend anybody whos worked hard and stayed out of trouble. The general view in this thread however is that the majority of the country were loan addicts who drove bmws and lived well beyond there means. Im sure theres a fair few people like that around, but I dont think its the majority. When I go around I find myself talking to people who got a loan in the boom time for a modest house so they could start a family etc. These same people now find themselves with a mortgage, there jobs threatened, and being cornered by higher taxes and pay cuts.

At the end of the day its a tragedy of the commons thing, there is a majority of hard working people out there, but the government, banks and general muppets out there managed to make a monumental mess of the best times this country ever had.

Daithinski

hinault wrote: »

We've plenty of cash in the bank - and we could pay off our entire 20 year mortgage tomorrow if necessary (we're 4 years in to our mortgage).

Great idea not to pay off mortgage, someone needs to keep the banks balance sheets in good order by paying plenty of interest.

gandalf

I bought my place 3 years ago just as the property prices were starting to deflate. I paid a lot less for the place than it was advertised for but similar places are now going for €75K less. However I was lucky, I am a similar age to DeVore I have saved all my life and I paid most of the value of my home in cash. I have a modest mortgage and one I calculated I could pay easily which luckly I can. This place was bought as a home. Alot has happened in my life since then and I got married earlier this year to a wonderful woman and we are now expecting our first child next Summer.

This has lead me to examine my life in Ireland, the prospects for the future and my families future very closely and I do not like what I see. As a society I feel we are rudderless and we lack people of any vision in charge of the country and I do not see where any future leaders are coming from (maybe boards!). With this in mind myself and my wife (who is French) have decided that we will be looking at moving to France within the next 2 years. If I am going to pay more tax then I might as well get the proper services to go with them.

Ireland is going to lose a generation of people it can ill afford to lose. However to hold onto people you have to have hope and the larder is bare for that ingredient at the moment.

People need to take responsibility for their actions and the effect of their actions on general society be it you or me, politicians, union leaders, bankers. At the moment nearly everyone has their heads firmly entrenched in the sand.

hinault

Daithinski wrote: »

Great idea not to pay off mortgage, someone needs to keep the banks balance sheets in good order by paying plenty of interest.

I'm not about to clear my mortgage and have zero savings to fall back on.

ntlbell

hinault wrote: »

I'm not about to clear my mortgage and have zero savings to fall back on.

??

what would you use the savings for? to pay off your mortgage...

if you have no mortgage, you pay 0 interest and have a huge amount of disposable income to start saving

you make 0 sense.

hinault

ntlbell wrote: »

??

what would you use the savings for? to pay off your mortgage...

if you have no mortgage, you pay 0 interest and have a huge amount of disposable income to start saving

you make 0 sense.

I want to keep my options open being honest about it.

I may look at purchasing property over the next 18 - 24 months.
Cash is king at the moment - given the fact that the banks are lending nothing.
Anyhow this is all completely off topic.

herya

Daithinski wrote: »

Great idea not to pay off mortgage, someone needs to keep the banks balance sheets in good order by paying plenty of interest.

I know people doing it because they can get better interest from their savings/investments than the mortgage interest. So they'll pay it off after a while and still have something left.

ntlbell

hinault wrote: »

I want to keep my options open being honest about it.

I may look at purchasing property over the next 18 - 24 months.
Cash is king at the moment - given the fact that the banks are lending nothing.
Anyhow this is all completely off topic.

so you're throwing away huge amounts of cash in interest payments because cash is king?

hehe.

your right, off topic.