Why am I getting it in the ass??

FlutterinBantam

Bottom line.... the saver gets it in the neck every time.

Seems it's better off to blow everything and throw yourself at the mercy of the state.

I often wonder in means testing do they never take into account past income and how it was managed.

hinault

ntlbell wrote: »

so you're throwing away huge amounts of cash in interest payments because cash is king?

hehe.

your right, off topic.

Interest rates are at an historic low in case you haven't noticed.
It's costing you nothing to borrow/service loans at present.

Problem is that you can't borrow money.
No one is lending.
Thus if you have cash - large amounts of cash - you are king.

dresden8

Why am I getting it in the ass??

Because you don't count. You're not on the inside, you're not part of the family, you didn't contribute to FF and quite frankly as far as they're concerned you can fnck off and die.

Or stay in Malta, it's all the same to them.

Do remember to come back and vote at the next General Election though.

Stky10

hinault wrote: »

Interest rates are at an historic low in case you haven't noticed.
It's costing you nothing to borrow/service loans at present.

Problem is that you can't borrow money.
No one is lending.
Thus if you have cash - large amounts of cash - you are king.

You're quite right. In the current deflationary circumstances you're better off at the moment keeping it in cash readily available. If I were you, I'd investigate moving part of it abroad, to protect yourself in case the government does something stupid.

@OP's point.. I completely agree. Relatively similar age, never bought property, not married, no kids. Currently living faraway abroad for the past 8 months, working on a customer site for an irish arm of a multinational company. So I'm still paying tax in Ireland. With what I'm reading everyday though I think the chances of me moving abroad completely increase by the day, to the effect that I've told this to family and friends. No way am I going to spend the rest of my working life working my ass off to pay for NAMA, or the new irish and the poor mouths demanding to be bailed out because their greed and stupidity made them pay 400k for shoebox apartments in Meath.

They made their bed... they can lie in it, I'm not paying for it.

asdasd

so you're throwing away huge amounts of cash in interest payments because cash is king?

Cash is King at the moment and if inflation takes off he can move to Gold.

I too prefer high savings to paying off a mortgage in full because it is money in the bank. To coin a phrase ( I'll stop now).

A mortgage is also a forced withdrawal every week from income, there is no guarantee that someone on higher disposable will save it - probably not because the higher the disposable the higher the expenditure for most people.


for that reason even if I have enough money to buy a house for cash I would put about 50% down, and get a mortgage.

murphaph

dresden8 wrote: »

Just two points, we were never wealthy and we were never a role-model.

I'm sure the Germans and French who had to listen to Bertie and co banging on about how successful we were, Europe's best economy and all that crap, are allowing themselve just a smidgeon of schadenfreude at the mo.

I doubt it. It's the prudent German employee (no debts, just savings) who is currently (indirectly) lending fistfuls of money to Ireland to pay the public service wage bill. They are looking on anxiously to see how much damage the rogue Ireland has actually done to the reputation of an otherwise fairly strong new currency.

The German employee likely works for a German firm which makes high quality and in-demand goods which Germany then exports around the world and then lends a lot of this money to stupid Ireland. Bertie Ahern should be kicked to fcuking ***** IMO but the stupid Irish electorate bought it (including me in the last election but one).

hinault

murphaph wrote: »

I doubt it. It's the prudent German employee (no debts, just savings) who is currently (indirectly) lending fistfuls of money to Ireland to pay the public service wage bill. They are looking on anxiously to see how much damage the rogue Ireland has actually done to the reputation of an otherwise fairly strong new currency.

The German employee likely works for a German firm which makes high quality and in-demand goods which Germany then exports around the world and then lends a lot of this money to stupid Ireland. Bertie Ahern should be kicked to fcuking ***** IMO but the stupid Irish electorate bought it (including me in the last election but one).

David McWilliams made a similar case about USA/China.
He said that in order for China to recoup the money already loaned to the USA, that China would have to keep funding the USA in the hope that it would recoup previous loans!

Darragh29

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Freaky! Right down to the age of the OP, I could have written the original post!

Maybe there was some cop-on being dished out in 1970!

Mind you, I don't have the Maltese option

But someone needs to kick the current fat-cats up the arse.

I'm in the exact same boat, only I'm a bit younger. I had the opportunity to get into a 550K mortgage situation and had some considerable difficulty talking my other half out of it only back in 2006. We had the mortgage approved, ready to sign, when the stamp duty was mentioned, (I think it was around 50K), I'll never forget the words spoken by the estate agent, "But the property will appreciate in value by at least the amount of the stamp duty within the next 12 months"... Even back in 2006, the mortgage was too much for our combined income.

We didn't proceed thank God and even herself is relieved now that we didn't.

What was going on was clearly madness...

Something else I'll point out as a guy who had a business fail through the "Celtic Tiger".... When I was in 3rd level studying for a business management degree, one of the fundamental principles of the market was that if you offered a quality product, at the best price, with the best service, you won business"...

This simple enough philosophy that has served us well down through the generations, was in a state of complete suspense throughout the Celtic Tiger years...

There was no appetite for value for money during the Celtic Tiger, or for optimum service, unless you were charging some stupid amount for your products or services and had a customer service delivery problem, you were not taken seriously.

There were a lot of people grafting hard behind the stage curtains of the Celtic Tiger and they made very little for themselves...

This recession is the best thing that has happened us, it will improve value and improve customer service standards, where it badly needs to improve.

djpbarry

seclachi wrote: »

The general view in this thread however is that the majority of the country were loan addicts who drove bmws and lived well beyond there means. Im sure theres a fair few people like that around, but I dont think its the majority.

I'm not so sure about that. We had/have absolutely massive levels of personal debt in this country - I don't think a few BMW-owners were solely responsible. I seem to recall a report from Goodbody (last year, I think) stating that the average Irish household was borrowing about €160 for every €100 earned.

seclachi wrote: »

When I go around I find myself talking to people who got a loan in the boom time for a modest house so they could start a family etc.

The house may have been modest, but it was still probably ridiculously over-priced.

My name is URL

Each to their own, I'm still contented to live in and pay taxes to the country that provided me with the opportunities and means to make my life relatively comfortable

Thankfully I was too young during the boom to succumb to the idiocy of buying a trophy house etc.. and now I live in a small house which I bought during the downturn

"it seems like every man for himself" just now? really? I was never under any illusions that's how it always was

Will you still be positioning boards to a place that betters this country as a whole (as you've mentioned in other threads) from your new detached quarters?

DeVore

I'm really having difficulties thinking logically about this simply because I'm so annoyed about what is happening and will happen. I've tried to boil it down to a few main points.

1. I have 0 confidence in our politicians and in our political system. Any of them. I dont have a great deal of hope for the future under their governance.

2. The attitude is "well, we all partook of the madness so we should all shoulder the blame for the mess". Thats boll0x. We didnt all do so, but its convenient to forget that. That feels unjust.

3. I have 0 confidence that this isnt going to happen again. Effectively we have handed the banks a bunch of our money for free (what did we get in return, some over priced property? how ironic!) and asked them nicely to loan it back to us at 5+%
What happened to the ideology of the free market? That the free market corrects? We should let Anglo die... its not like some other bank isnt going to step in and buy up the debt, at a reasonable market rate... yeah that might be billions below what it was loaned at but tough. Free Markets are rough places.
So... fool me once etc etc.

4. What goes around, comes around... except it doesnt. Its been "going around" most of my life and my fathers before it. What comes around? Crap healthcare, plummeting school standards, never been on the dole, lousy public order etc etc.

I cant get the start of the Hudsucker Proxy out of my head: "I'm getting off this merry-go-round...."

DeV.

Mr. Presentable

Why am I getting it in the ass?

OP, I, like you, have been prudent and have savings. I am getting it in the ass because I have been prudent - because I have something that can be taken. :mad:

Being pragmatic, the only ones who will pay are the only ones who can - you cannot get blood from a turnip, and this country is full of SUV driving turnips.

DeVore

My name is URL wrote: »

Each to their own, I'm still contented to live in and pay taxes to the country that provided me with the opportunities and means to make my life relatively comfortable

Thankfully I was too young during the boom to succumb to the idiocy of buying a trophy house etc.. and now I live in a small house which I bought during the downturn

"it seems like every man for himself" just now? really? I was never under any illusions that's how it always was

Will you still be positioning boards to a place that betters this country as a whole (as you've mentioned in other threads) from your new detached quarters?

To answer your last point: Yes, I will. I think Boards is about the most political thing I could ever do. Boards isnt about me, its much bigger then me.

Right now the mainstream media is either from Montrose (who are waaay too scared of p*ssing off their political masters, eg: the Cowen picture) or Fleet street, who have their own pay-masters agenda to push.

Blogs are all well and good but they don't have the audience. what we as a population need is a neutral level playing field where everyone can have their turn and make their point.

So yes, I do want to improve my country and its not fair that everyone doesnt have the options I have but you know what, I'm not going to take it in the ass again 10 years from now. I havent decided to emigrate because Ireland is my home and I'm torn between looking out for number 1 and trying to help out. Its sick and its frustrating, but I'm not going to slave my life away because we're getting screwed by a corrupt political system.


DeV.

john_d_baptist

The irony now is, that people who thought that they were doing the right thing, plotting their career carefully, studying outside of work to get even more qualified so as to get higher up the pay-scale, licking up to bosses that they secretly didnt like in an effort to strengthen their position in a company/organisation, sitting in traffic for 2 -3 hours a day in a car that they have paid WAY over the odds for, so they can return to a house that they have paid well over a quarter of a million euro for (even though it was only built for 50,000).... are in a way worse position than those who chose to drop out years ago, the people that are long term unemployed, those who would never have qualified for a mortgage, guys who you would find in the pub most nights of the week... the hard working people of this country have been turned into debt slaves, and have now been tied to a ball and chain for the rest of their lives

kippy

DeVore wrote: »

I'm really having difficulties thinking logically about this simply because I'm so annoyed about what is happening and will happen. I've tried to boil it down to a few main points.

1. I have 0 confidence in our politicians and in our political system. Any of them. I dont have a great deal of hope for the future under their governance.

2. The attitude is "well, we all partook of the madness so we should all shoulder the blame for the mess". Thats boll0x. We didnt all do so, but its convenient to forget that. That feels unjust.

3. I have 0 confidence that this isnt going to happen again. Effectively we have handed the banks a bunch of our money for free (what did we get in return, some over priced property? how ironic!) and asked them nicely to loan it back to us at 5+%
What happened to the ideology of the free market? That the free market corrects? We should let Anglo die... its not like some other bank isnt going to step in and buy up the debt, at a reasonable market rate... yeah that might be billions below what it was loaned at but tough. Free Markets are rough places.
So... fool me once etc etc.

4. What goes around, comes around... except it doesnt. Its been "going around" most of my life and my fathers before it. What comes around? Crap healthcare, plummeting school standards, never been on the dole, lousy public order etc etc.

I cant get the start of the Hudsucker Proxy out of my head: "I'm getting off this merry-go-round...."

DeV.

Can I ask what your alternatives are?
I have little or no faith in the political system and various other systems in this country however, to me, that is a failure of democracy. The same people kept voting the same way for years. Thers feck all I personally can do if the majority blindly vote with the party for no reason, and that has been happening here for years and is the basic cause of issues we currently have.

hinault

john_d_baptist wrote: »

The irony now is, that people who thought that they were doing the right thing, plotting their career carefully, studying outside of work to get even more qualified so as to get higher up the pay-scale, licking up to bosses that they secretly didnt like in an effort to strengthen their position in a company/organisation, sitting in traffic for 2 -3 hours a day in a car that they have paid WAY over the odds for, so they can return to a house that they have paid well over a quarter of a million euro for (even though it was only built for 50,000).... are in a way worse position than those who chose to drop out years ago, the people that are long term unemployed, those who would never have qualified for a mortgage, guys who you would find in the pub most nights of the week... the hard working people of this country have been turned into debt slaves, and have now been tied to a ball and chain for the rest of their lives

I love optimists like you:D

_Kooli_

DeVore wrote: »

Here's my story.

I earn minimum wage

right now I'm sitting in a very recently acquired, modestly costed Maltese apartment

Wow, minimum wage can by you an apartment in Malta.

I never borrowed or bought a house either. Just never needed one yet.
We've been great savers for many, many years and to tell the truth, we're delighted at this huge bust that is happening.
It makes our savings and the fact that we have zero debts a great asset.

The problem is that if people had of looked after themselves and their prospects over the years, instead if just noticing now, that things always boom and bust, then they would all be better off today.

What i see now is people who didnt provide for their future tough times looking around trying to blame anyone else they can throw a dart at for their lack of forward planning.

We are all responsible for our own personal situations.

We're thinking of emigrating too. Why? Because we can improve our own situation by doing it. If the government takes too much in taxes from us and we can get paid more in the UK or the US, then we will go there. Not because we blame anyone, because its better for us.

My name is URL

DeVore wrote: »

To answer your last point: Yes, I will. I think Boards is about the most political thing I could ever do. Boards isnt about me, its much bigger then me.

Right now the mainstream media is either from Montrose (who are waaay too scared of p*ssing off their political masters, eg: the Cowen picture) or Fleet street, who have their own pay-masters agenda to push.

Blogs are all well and good but they don't have the audience. what we as a population need is a neutral level playing field where everyone can have their turn and make their point.

So yes, I do want to improve my country and its not fair that everyone doesnt have the options I have but you know what, I'm not going to take it in the ass again 10 years from now. I havent decided to emigrate because Ireland is my home and I'm torn between looking out for number 1 and trying to help out. Its sick and its frustrating, but I'm not going to slave my life away because we're getting screwed by a corrupt political system.


DeV.

That's all fair enough, I can't fault anyone for considering ways to improve their own circumstances, that's life

Maybe you should go into politics yourself. It's easier to change things from the inside.. you have the means to reach a large audience and are influential here.. if a time comes where the country's best and brightest are opting to emigrate how can things ever improve within Ireland?

Dr Galen

that time already come unfortunately

DeVore

Kooli: 100k euros will buy you a nice place in Malta. I only had 80k but my folks put 80k in too and we got a very nice place between us.

I cannot afford somewhere in Dublin so I rent a one bed place in Rathmines (for a fortunte). I'm not putting on the poor mouth here. I like being a free agent and I dont want a desk job but the idea that Boards provides me with a big bed of money to sleep on, well... its not really true in the end of the day. All of which is off topic, my point is still that there is a sense of "we should all be in this together"... to which my answer is "when do I get part of your stupidly over priced house then?"

DeV.

sparklepants

This...

DeVore wrote: »

Well now it seems like every man for himself.

...and this...

DeVore wrote: »

my point is still that there is a sense of "we should all be in this together"

DeV.

It's clear that you subscribe to the former approach and not the latter, which doesn't exactly put you in a positive light from where I'm standing. You've chosen to take up residency in Malta because it's what you believe best suits you. You choose to walk away rather than contribute here. That's fine of course, but it does undermine your argument that you have to "shoulder the burden" of what's gone wrong in the Irish economy. With the title of this thread you portray yourself as a victim, yet your admission that you've no debts and no ties exposes your victimhood as phoney, and has made it clear that you've no understanding of the difficulties currently facing people who are less fortunate than you.

To me you appear to be a confused little bunny who's lost his way. Perhaps a little time in that sunny apartment bought for you by your parents will help you sort out what it is you're so unhappy about and what you're really running away from.

asdasd

yet your admission that you've no debts and no ties exposes your victimhood as phoney, and has made it clear that you've no understanding of the difficulties currently facing people who are less fortunate than you.

De Vore wasn't claiming victimhood.

He was making the point that the "people less fortunate than him" ( who would mostly be on higher wages if he is on minimum wage) are not victims but producers of their own misfortune ( and his if he has to pay more tax), and are now whining about their victimhood.

Victimization is something that happens to people which is beyond their control, buying a house in the boom was within everybody's control. Those of us who didnt do it dont feel like shouldering the burden of those of you who did: you were, after all, not going to give us any of your winnings, now were you?

ei.sdraob

@devore et al.

im in same boat as yourself, never took on debt, save alot and be generally pragmatic and prudent about finances and investments

it absolutely drives me mad that the banks were bailed out, as some of yee know im utterly against any meddling in the markets, since thats what got us here in first place

and it makes me even madder all this talk of NAMA (which i dont agree with either) for people, seriously?! bailout the feckless too?


thankfully my business allows me to work anywhere in world where theres electricity and internet, and all assets are already abroad. but i decided not to leave the country

why?

* im in middle of building house (no debt involved) its coming out at less than half of the 400-500K asking prices (nowadays) of neighbouring houses, whose owners must be in some serious debt :cool: main reason for doing this is that i want own house and as far as i can see my savings can disappear or get ass raped by the government at any time (as illustrated in UK)
* family and friends
* i taught long and hard and moaning is not gonna get me far, instead will play the system and make most of it. plan for 2010 is too:
** write off as many things as possible as company expense (car, furniture, bills, investment in greens like windmill and solar heating)
** incorporate somewhere warmer and move most of the business offshore, all of the income is already coming and earned from outside ireland, so quite legal
** working less and enjoying life, why work harder if it all gets taxed and wasted
** moving as much money out of irish banks. the same reckless banks who to this day (i kid you not!) are trying to sell me business loans and mortgages

i think this recession will open opportunities, or maybe im plain daft :P

_Kooli_

Id just like to point out that anyone not paying tax, is not really shouldering much of the burden at all. Anyone on minimum wage isnt shouldering much.

jimmmy

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Id just like to point out that anyone not paying tax, is not really shouldering much of the burden at all. Anyone on minimum wage isnt shouldering much.

There are plenty of people working to the best of their ability, in shops , hotels, restaurants, factories etc on ( or close to ) the minimum wage, and who do not get to take many sickies or holidays and who do not have - or will ever have - a fat government pension to look forward to. Many of their employers cannot pay them public sector type wages and pensions, because of intense competition. To say these people are not " really shouldering much of the burden at all ", while there are overpaid and underworked people in so many other areas , is a bit sickening. They are getting much less of a slice of cake out of the economy than many others that could be named. Even those on the minimum wage contribute something to state coffers through vat on purchases etc, and it it not right for those who have secure cosy jobs to turn up their noses at them.

Scofflaw

jimmmy wrote: »

There are plenty of people working to the best of their ability, in shops , hotels, restaurants, factories etc on ( or close to ) the minimum wage, and who do not get to take many sickies or holidays and who do not have - or will ever have - a fat government pension to look forward to. Many of their employers cannot pay them public sector type wages and pensions, because of intense competition. To say these people are not " really shouldering much of the burden at all ", while there are overpaid and underworked people in so many other areas , is a bit sickening. They are getting much less of a slice of cake out of the economy than many others that could be named. Even those on the minimum wage contribute something to state coffers through vat on purchases etc, and it it not right for those who have secure cosy jobs to turn up their noses at them.

OK, that's quite enough of you posting the same thing on every single thread. Take some time off, and try and work up some new material.

Banned for two weeks for persistent thread spoiling and off-topic posting.

moderately,
Scofflaw

DeVore

I've worked for 2 decades both paying tax, creating companies who paid tax and creating about 20 jobs in total where those people paid tax. To say I havent contributed or shouldered my burden is quite simply daft. Even when I sold my shares in some of my companies, I paid capital gains tax. I dont complain about that but I am angry that
1. it has been squandered and we get poor public services for the money put into the system
2. the next 10 years are going to be used to bail out not more then what, a few hundred people? Let them go to the wall. let them declare bankruptcy. Let the market pick over the bones of Anglo and correct itself. Either we are a free market economy or we arent.

I'm heart sick at the thought of leaving Ireland but quite simply I have the strongest feeling that we are just fooling ourselves and blindly allowing history to repeat itself.

DeV.

seclachi

DeVore wrote: »

2. the next 10 years are going to be used to bail out not more then what, a few hundred people? Let them go to the wall. let them declare bankruptcy. Let the market pick over the bones of Anglo and correct itself. Either we are a free market economy or we arent.

If the banks were left to die nobody would get it in the ass more than the people who have savings with the banks instead of loans (and if you have it under the matress you`ll still have a country in absolute ruin to deal with), I`m always puzzled by people who say this, as letting a bank die really is the practical example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

oscarBravo

DeVore wrote: »

...I have the strongest feeling that we are just fooling ourselves and blindly allowing history to repeat itself.

This.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the government's entire strategy revolves around re-inflating the bubble, because at least when we had a bubble we didn't have to worry about how to pay our (national) bills.

DeVore

seclachi wrote: »

If the banks were left to die nobody would get it in the ass more than the people who have savings with the banks instead of loans (and if you have it under the matress you`ll still have a country in absolute ruin to deal with), I`m always puzzled by people who say this, as letting a bank die really is the practical example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You say that, but you are just saying that. I see no reason why the first half of what you say causes the second half.

You think a bank hasn't gone out of business before? You think some other bank wouldnt step in and buy the assets (no matter how toxic) for 1 million? 1 billion? 10 billion? If they are supposedly worth 57 billion... someone will buy them.

Let Anglo die, let the developers who over stretched go bankrupt and let the market self correct. The only reason we are blinking now is that its the government's mates who will suffer. Well tough sh*t mate, no one bailed me out when my first company went spang.

Can you give me any logic as to why letting anglo crash would be so terrible? People with savings of less then 101k are insured by the way, under the Central Bank liquidity systems, so I'm not sure you actually know what you are talking about.

None of which answers my question which is, I would not have seen any of the profits them so why should I bail them out.

Is this a free market economy or not?


DeV.