Why am I getting it in the ass??

ch750536

From the outside looking in...

I was born in the UK to English parents, used to travel a lot to Ireland for holidays & stuff so I have known the place well for the last 20 odd years.

The Celtic Tiger was the worst thing to happen to Ireland in a long time.

1. Money became more important than people.
2. People felt they had that much money they could be careless & get by.
3. People became pompous & arrogant.

Other than those who feel real pain & don't deserve it I think this recession could be great for Ireland if some of these items can be reversed.

I live a comfortable life here, have lost 40% of my income but can still get by. Friends are a lot worse off financially, glad I'm here to do what I can for them right now. I just hope a lesson is learnt & we are not back here again in 15 years time.

_Kooli_

Well they could start by knocking down any empty properties west of the Shannon. They will NEVER sell. Then they could work their way in towards the major cities until the overhang is gone. Eventual Economic recovery (yes, economies recover, same as booms bust) should push the buying ring out towards the incoming ring of destruction. When they meet. Overhang gone.

bakkiesbotha

DeVore wrote: »

Here's my story.

I'm a 39 year old professional. I wont go into comparative salaries because I earn minimum wage because I chose a life of entrepreneurship and I'm happy with that. Thats not my beef.

But during the Silly Years, I tried to tell everyone who would listen that the housing market was ridiculously over stretched. I could easily have gotten a big mortage and bought a house and car (at the time I was consulting for decent cash) but I chose the pragmatic approach because I didnt like what I saw. I was prudent.

I'm not married, no kids. I didnt speculate on the stock market.

Now I'm being asked to shoulder the burden of people who wilfully borrowed more then they could repay, of banks who are have privatised their profits and socialised their losses.

NAMA is going to lock me into a higher tax band if I'm successful in my businesses and raise my taxes considerably even if I dont.

I'm not (just) whinging, i'm making the case for people like me who were RESPONSIBLE about our borrowings, our financial activities and our lives basically, but now still have to rescue everyone else seemingly.

I'm breakfast roll man I guess, but I have an option, my work allows me to work from anywhere (right now I'm sitting in a very recently acquired, modestly costed Maltese apartment).

I've always been nationalistic, I stuck it out in the 80's and early 90's working to build a better country but now?? Well now it seems like every man for himself.


I'm seriously wondering why I am returning to Ireland and have begun the process of seeking residency in Malta.

DeV.

If you take this logic to its conclusion, then you should have a problem with paying any taxes that are spent on anything you don't personally consume, or benefit from, or to deal with any issues that you had nothing to do with causing.

I presume that you will have to pay at least some tax in Malta, and that they have prisons, and schools, and hospitals, and an army and a whole range of other public services you will never utilise.

Lockstep

I can sympathise DeVore.

Am wondering if there's much point in me going back to Ireland, I've got a nice gaff with cheap rent,a job, good friends and a warm local which are pretty much what I need to stay happy.

There seems to be none of the doom and gloom over here, not seeing much of a pulling factor back to Ireland aside from a sense of duty.

ei.sdraob

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

If you take this logic to its conclusion, then you should have a problem with paying any taxes that are spent on anything you don't personally consume, or benefit from, or to deal with any issues that you had nothing to do with causing.

I presume that you will have to pay at least some tax in Malta, and that they have prisons, and schools, and hospitals, and an army and a whole range of other public services you will never utilise.

the problem is not with public service/welfare itself

its needed

the problem is with these being too large by any measure in this country and not providing value for money

bakkiesbotha

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the problem is not with public service/welfare itself

its needed

the problem is with these being too large by any measure in this country and not providing value for money

The OP complained about having to shoulder the burden for what he perceived as other people's recklessness.

If you pay tax, then that tax gets spent on people that are wise and stupid, honest and crooked, industrious and lazy. You may benefit personally or you may not. You don't get a say in how it's spent.

Ally Dick

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Well they could start by knocking down any empty properties west of the Shannon. They will NEVER sell. Then they could work their way in towards the major cities until the overhang is gone. Eventual Economic recovery (yes, economies recover, same as booms bust) should push the buying ring out towards the incoming ring of destruction. When they meet. Overhang gone.

I'd be afraid that the government would instead try and bring people in from beyond the Black Sea to rent out this oversupply of houses instead of bulldozing them....

jmayo

dan_d wrote: »

...
But (and I don't like saying it, but it's a theory), our parents generation essentially priced their own kids out of a market. And a generation in between - I suppose in their early to mid thirties now - are now paying for their parent's profits, being locked into huge mortgages. And all of our kids are going to pay for this through their taxes for decades to come.
Why would any of us stay here??

In effect it was a transferal of wealkth form younger generations to older ones.
People that bought a house back in 50s/60s/70s/80s even upto early 90s could suddenly find themselves worth with millions because that was what someof their properties were worth.
The banks were chasing even retirees to remortgae or to sign up to some weird finanical instrument that released the equity in their homes.

I lived in reasonably expensive rented house at one stage and landlord (sound guy living abroad) informed me that estate agents were chasing him asking if he wanted to sell and cash in.

Some of those who suddenly had become millionaries through their property remortgaged to either buy investment pads here and overseas, buy places for their kids or even lend money to the kids to buy.
These people helped fuel the bubble and the government allowed it by not tightening the tax breaks.
Anyway it has screwed younger generations and even some older people who foolishly got greedy buying all these investment properties that are now often worthtless.

ch750536 wrote: »

From the outside looking in...
...
The Celtic Tiger was the worst thing to happen to Ireland in a long time.

1. Money became more important than people.
2. People felt they had that much money they could be careless & get by.
3. People became pompous & arrogant.

Other than those who feel real pain & don't deserve it I think this recession could be great for Ireland if some of these items can be reversed...

IMHO You are wrong and right.

But first I will redefine the Celtic Tiger.
The Celtic Tiger economy was from the mids nineties up until 2001.
We had a real economy, with huge growth in productive jobs, with growth in export earnings.
But then bertie and the tent boys turned it into a construction bubble economy kept alive by the Irish need to buy property facilitated by cheap credit.

Why do people persist in continuing to lable what went on from 2002 to 2007 as the celtic tiger economy and why did so many eejits think bertie and the boys were great in 2007 for creating a massive bubble ?

And that is where ch750536 you are right about the mindset changes of a lot of Irish people.
A lot of Irish people saw their properties worth millions, saw a quick way of becoming rich and became greedy, arrogant and the me fein attitude was very alive and well.

How else could anyone explain why so many people voted for him in 2007 ?
Afterall his government had already been exposed as wasters of taxes, he had already being shown to be unethical in the extreme, and public services like healthcare were an absolute mess.
Yet we had posters on this very site telling us how wonderful he and his party were and how the whingers should all shag off if we weren't proud of his great Ireland :rolleyes:

Diarmuid

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

You don't get a say in how it's spent.

Yes you do.

bakkiesbotha

Diarmuid wrote: »

Yes you do.

Sorry, you're right. I forgot that at election time politicians present spending plans to the electorate that are accurate to the last decimal place, and that they are unable to deviate from them by one cent until the next general election.

ei.sdraob

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

The OP complained about having to shoulder the burden for what he perceived as other people's recklessness.

If you pay tax, then that tax gets spent on people that are wise and stupid, honest and crooked, industrious and lazy. You may benefit personally or you may not. You don't get a say in how it's spent.

then how come people in other countries in EU benefit much more out of their tax money

?

bakkiesbotha

ei.sdraob wrote: »

then how come people in other countries in EU benefit much more out of their tax money

?

Some do, some don't. In the ones that do, they pay more tax and maybe they're just smarter and more honest than us.

_Kooli_

ei.sdraob wrote: »

then how come people in other countries in EU benefit much more out of their tax money

?

Generally, they pay more tax.
And they dont allow as many workers as we do to live tax free off the rest of the tax payers.
We have to bring everybody into the tax net.

ei.sdraob

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Some do, some don't. In the ones that do, they pay more tax and maybe they're just smarter and more honest than us.

i recommend you read OECD reports and past threads here

ireland pays most for its PS and Welfare yet doesnt rank in the top for these services

someone had a post earlier comparing the health service with figures in Netherlands which costs less and provides better service

the current state of the PS is indefencible

it needs to slim down

Dr Galen

the Dutch have a radically different healthcare model to ours. In many ways it's like comparing apples to oranges.

It has been discussed before about moving to a similar model, which would result in less healthcare costs to the state, and if the model holds true, better patient outcomes.

thebman

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

the Dutch have a radically different healthcare model to ours. In many ways it's like comparing apples to oranges.

It has been discussed before about moving to a similar model, which would result in less healthcare costs to the state, and if the model holds true, better patient outcomes.

Lol can you imagine if they tried to change work practices, strike!

DeVore

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

The OP complained about having to shoulder the burden for what he perceived as other people's recklessness.

If you pay tax, then that tax gets spent on people that are wise and stupid, honest and crooked, industrious and lazy. You may benefit personally or you may not. You don't get a say in how it's spent.

NAMA isnt a tax, its a millstone.

I have 0 problem paying tax for the upkeep of the country, even for Social Welfare which i've managed to avoid ever being on.

I have a problem bailing out a few hundred, bankers and developers... cos thats what it is. A few hundred by my reckoning.


DeV.

Fentdog84

All apologies in advance but I just couldnt resist this in light of the thread heading, no offence intended etc.
Q: Why am I getting it in the ass??

Ans: Because thats the way you like it!!

bakkiesbotha

DeVore wrote: »

NAMA isnt a tax, its a millstone.

Whatever you want to call it, you don't get to decide how much money the state takes out of your pocket and what they spend it on.

DeVore wrote: »

I have 0 problem paying tax for the upkeep of the country, even for Social Welfare which i've managed to avoid ever being on.

I have a problem bailing out a few hundred, bankers and developers... cos thats what it is. A few hundred by my reckoning.

DeV.

NAMA is bailing out a lot more than the bankers and developers. It is bailing out the whole country.

People wonder why the banks have to be propped up and can't just be allowed to fail, or can't just be nationalised.

This is because the Irish state has to borrow 400 million per week to meet its obligations. The markets are, understandably enough, not too interested in buying Irish government bonds, so the ECB are lending us this money. However, under European law, they cannot lend money directly to a country, they can only lend money to banks.

Can you hazard a guess what banks they are lending to, and who these banks are then lending the money to?

NAMA is being set up in order to allow the state to continue to spend money it doesn't have on social welfare & public services. And, as with everything in Ireland, someone is exploiting this situation to their benefit - in this case, it is the banks.

deanswift

murphaph wrote: »

I doubt it. It's the prudent German employee (no debts, just savings) who is currently (indirectly) lending fistfuls of money to Ireland to pay the public service wage bill. They are looking on anxiously to see how much damage the rogue Ireland has actually done to the reputation of an otherwise fairly strong new currency.

The German employee likely works for a German firm which makes high quality and in-demand goods which Germany then exports around the world and then lends a lot of this money to stupid Ireland. Bertie Ahern should be kicked to fcuking ***** IMO but the stupid Irish electorate bought it (including me in the last election but one).

ahh sure yez all will put the bert above in the park
ahh go on go on go on
sure who else is there
all the bert wants is a merc to take him to croker
an guzzle a few bass in fagans
count the brass in his biscuit tin
call to seanie for tea
and sit in jp's box in mu
ahhh sure yez'll put the bert in the park
sure there's none else
ahhhhhh go on go on go on

Sizzler

To answer OP's question....because this lad is in charge

_Kooli_

Jesus, that pic frightened the life out of me.

old boy

are them wimmin smileing at the camera or laughing at the clown

DeVore

DeVore wrote: »

NAMA isnt a tax, its a millstone.

I have 0 problem paying tax for the upkeep of the country, even for Social Welfare which i've managed to avoid ever being on.

I have a problem bailing out a few hundred, bankers and developers... cos thats what it is. A few hundred by my reckoning.


DeV.

Nama or no nama though,the developers involved that can't pay back the money they borrowed only have 2 assets,their projects and their homes.
In the extremely challenged cases -theres no hope of clawing even a tiny percentage of it back with that.
Theres an unfinished shell visible near sandyford luas station thats got 10's of millions borrowed on it,yet is only now worth about 1.5 million.
I've been in many meetings at banks in my day and I'll be pointing that out to them whenever they in future offer me advice
But we are where we are.
If we left the banks with their mess,they[as has been seen] have no money to lend and responsible lending is a large part of any economies wheels-simple things like car loans,home improvement loans,working capital for businesses.
Anecdotally I hear some of the irish versions of the GB banks have to send applications to london now.We're better off with irish banks making irish decisions with new improved irish regulation and not the joke we had before.

I guess what I'm saying is,I think it's a potential millstone rather than a full on one.
Whether it becomes a full on millstone or none at all is unknown.
Because of the nature of everything involved,we'd be putting substantial sums into our banks anyway and also suffering the higher reputational costs of sourcing borrowed funds internationally.

Typically aswell for instance,those with gigantic loans at anglo are in for huge sums with the other banks -such that calling them in may mean the collapse of large customers of the main 2 banks.
The same applies to say a huge loan on aib's books.
Clearing that lot out for the time being lets them get back to normal business and profits...profits that the taxpayer has a 25% call on,being a shareholder and a further 12.5% call on via taxes.
I can see the logic there.It's devoid of contrition yes,but and it's a big BUT the idea is to get lending flowing.
Thats not happening yet but then nama isnt set up yet.
To give an example,I know of a dublin based firm whose chief FO has told me,one bank won't lend them money unless the other banks will.
Their business plan is fantastic.They're limping along with over a 100 employee's.
I won't go into what they do except the nature of their business is very sound but relies on borrowed working capital to start off each new project.
Thats crazy and it needs fixing or we spiral into more and more on the dole,less and less taxes and higher welfare spending etc.

We're stuck with Nama or whatever the opposition might replace it with in 3 years [I doubt they will at that stage]-though as I said we have mechanisms to levy banks future profits to get it back if theres a Nama loss.
I wouldn't be a politician for all the Rioja in spain SIZE=1]and that's saying a lot.. [SIZE=2[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Anyhow thats the way I'm looking at it.

thebman

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

Whatever you want to call it, you don't get to decide how much money the state takes out of your pocket and what they spend it on.

Well yes you do actually. We can buy services in the UK where they are cheaper because they don't have those taxes and if it comes down to it people can emigrate.

The Irish government seem oblivious to this reality that we are not locked into their tax system as much as they think.

asdasd

This is because the Irish state has to borrow 400 million per week to meet its obligations. The markets are, understandably enough, not too interested in buying Irish government bonds, so the ECB are lending us this money. However, under European law, they cannot lend money directly to a country, they can only

the reason why we would not get loans is precisely because we bailed out and guaranteed the banks. I have yet to see an answer as to why we couldn't just sell, or give, all banks to HSBC who are big enough to cover the losses, and could sell off the forfeited assets of the developers.

ireland could borrow easily enough then, we have repaid debt which was at a higher percentage of GDP before.

Bananawoman

ntlbell wrote: »

??

what would you use the savings for? to pay off your mortgage...

if you have no mortgage, you pay 0 interest and have a huge amount of disposable income to start saving

you make 0 sense.

Its this kind of lack of knowledge about finance that causes Ireland to end up like it is now. People need to start thinking about more than just how much cash in hand they can splash around today.

Paying off all his mortgage is not wise even if he can afford it as he will have no liquidity. No liquidity means no ability to invest (and actually no ability to protect himself should he ever get ill or similar). But mainly the fact that he can make investments by keeping liquidity AND paying off the banks along the original agreed terms, makes him one of the smartest people on this thread and actually one of the most important people to Ireland right now.

ConsiderThis

DeVore wrote: »

NAMA isnt a tax, its a millstone.

I have 0 problem paying tax for the upkeep of the country, even for Social Welfare which i've managed to avoid ever being on.

I have a problem bailing out a few hundred, bankers and developers... cos thats what it is. A few hundred by my reckoning.


DeV.

Like yourself, I have never had to resort to the dole even though I've had some pretty ropey times.

NAMA is a gamble, and the government is gambling that the property market will start to rise again and will, in the next few years, be more valuable than it was when these loans were taken out.

Does anyone really believe that someone is going to come along in the next few years and buy the site in D4 for which Sean Dunne paid €54 000 000 per acre?

jackthekipper

ConsiderThis wrote: »

Like yourself, I have never had to resort to the dole even though I've had some pretty ropey times.

NAMA is a gamble, and the government is gambling that the property market will start to rise again and will, in the next few years, be more valuable than it was when these loans were taken out.

Does anyone really believe that someone is going to come along in the next few years and buy the site in D4 for which Sean Dunne paid €54 000 000 per acre?

Bubble number 2 - electric boogaloo?
If the average drop in property prices at the lowest point is 33%, it will take a 50% increase from that point to get back up. Hightly unlikely and not what the goals hould be.