is purgutory real ?

darno

is purgutory real ?,,,,,,,i hope so i want my family and friends to be saved

Spacedog

Yes, it's real, a friend of mine who died, came back to life and told me all about it. i don't think he is the kind of person to lie about such a thing.

wolfsbane

darno wrote: »

is purgutory real ?,,,,,,,i hope so i want my family and friends to be saved

No, it's not. It's a man-made doctrine.

And if it were real, it still would not help you. The idea is that all who are in purgatory will certainly be saved anyway, it just being a matter of how much suffering they must go through first.

keano_afc

As Wolfsbane said, it is made up, no scriptural reference supports such a belief.

The bible says it is appointed for man once to die, and THEN judgement (my emphasis). There is no waiting room before we face God.

darno

thanks guys

kelly1

I certainly believe in Purgatory and it is a dogma of the Catholic Church. I don't think any would claim to have reached the degree of perfection (in charity) which makes us fit for Heaven. All of us have some inclination to sin. Who can claim to be totally unselfish and totally ordered to the will of God? Nobody with an attachment to sin gets into Heaven. We must be purified before we enter the hallowed presence of God.

Some verses which provide evidence of purgatory:

1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

---

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall
be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the
temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

In these passages, Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God's building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture
of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17).

---

Matthew 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

---

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Jesus is saying that one can be forgiven either in this age (earthly life) or in the age to come (after death). Those who are in heaven (which is in the age to come) have no need for forgiveness (true), and those who are in hell (which is in the age to come) cannot be forgiven (true). Therefore, there must be another state in the age to come where we can be forgiven (true). This is purgatory.

---

Matthew 18:32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant,
even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

God bless,
Noel.

Amirani

As far as I know it's just made up.

kelly1

niallsparky wrote: »

As far as I know it's just made up.

Hello Niall, when the Church declares something as dogma, it doesn't and can't just make it up! It must be based on Scripture.

See the Catholic Encyclopedia and some info on what the Church Fathers had to say about it.

philologos

I don't believe purgatory exists, I also don't think the wording of "prison" is referring to purgatory but rather to Hades or to Sheol, the place of the dead until the point where Jesus Christ will come to judge.

I personally, and no offence intended, believe that purgatory is a contrived notion. Jesus Christ justifies us, He makes us clean. There is no reason why we need to go to purgatory before we can adequately be judged.

LordSutch

niallsparky wrote: »

As far as I know it's just made up.

Indeed, it was invented by the RC Church, but I think they have let go the belief in recent years?

kelly1

Camelot wrote: »

Indeed, it was invented by the RC Church, but I think they have let go the belief in recent years?

No, you're confusing it with Limbo. Purgatory is a Catholic dogma and so will never change.

LordSutch

kelly1 wrote: »

No, you're confusing it with Limbo.

Ah yes, 'Limbo' thats another one!

Turtwig

What's limbo??
I thought that was just a joke or something?:o

oshead

kelly1 wrote: »

Some verses which provide evidence of purgatory:

Verses relating to purgatory are not evidence in its self. They are simply evidence of the belief of purgatory by whomever wrote those verses.

Is purgatory real? In a word..... No! Just some thing made up to appease those who are neither good nor bad. Reintroduced from scriptures by Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century to appease/appeal to Normal folk. :rolleyes:

philologos

oshead: It's whether or not these passages relate to purgatory that we need to discuss in the first place.

kelly1

oshead wrote: »

.....Reintroduced from scriptures by Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century to appease/appeal to Normal folk. :rolleyes:

I take it you didn't look at my link about the Church Fathers which go back to 160AD?

postcynical

kelly1 wrote: »

I certainly believe in Purgatory and it is a dogma of the Catholic Church.

Nice post Kelly1. I didn't know that purgatory was dogma - very convincing post.

postcynical

oshead wrote: »

Verses relating to purgatory are not evidence in its self. They are simply evidence of the belief of purgatory by whomever wrote those verses.

The verses in question are from the Bible.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Slav

kelly1 wrote: »

Some verses which provide evidence of purgatory:

These look more like reading Purgatory into Scripture, tbh.

1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Where is Purgatory?Peter wrote about Sheol here and Sheol is not Purgatory, is it?

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall
be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the
temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

In these passages, Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God's building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture
of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17).

Where is Purgatory? Did Paul give any hints in this passage that he believed in purification fire needed to enter Heaven for those who are saved? I can't see any.

Matthew 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Where is Purgatory? Are you suggesting that the prison here is Purgatory? Then the judge in the previous passage must be God himself?

"Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison." (Matt 5:25)

That is not the God I know. And who is the officer BTW?

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Jesus is saying that one can be forgiven either in this age (earthly life) or in the age to come (after death). Those who are in heaven (which is in the age to come) have no need for forgiveness (true), and those who are in hell (which is in the age to come) cannot be forgiven (true). Therefore, there must be another state in the age to come where we can be forgiven (true). This is purgatory.

Where is Purgatory? First of all, if something cannot be forgiven in the ages to come it does no necessarily mean that something can be forgiven there. Secondly, even if it is the case I still fail to see any references to the purification aspect of that state. Why are you saying "this is purgatory" -- am I missing some logical conclusion here?

Matthew 18:32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant,
even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

Where is Purgatory? Perhaps I'm not very good at puzzles but I don't see any connection between this parable and the catholic purgatory. Could you please explain?

kelly1 wrote: »

some info on what the Church Fathers had to say about it.

Unfortunately the standards of working with the patristic heritage in the Roman Church are relatively low, probably because there was never a real need for it for the vast majority of Catholics -- indeed, roma locuta, causa finita. As a result we can see such collection of quotes aimed to prove a certain RCC dogma which would make anyone who's only briefly familiar with the authors either laugh or groan.

Rb

Scripture != Evidence.

PDN

Rb wrote: »

Scripture != Evidence.

In a discussion on the Christianity Forum it does. If you don't like that then you are under no obligation to participate.

Rb

PDN wrote: »

In a discussion on the Christianity Forum it does. If you don't like that then you are under no obligation to participate.

And you see nothing humourous about taking the (very conflicting) words of men who lived in caves and mud huts a few thousand years ago as evidence in this day and age?

kelly1

Sorry Slav, I really don't want to get into a long drawn-out and fruitless debate over Purgatory. Let's just agree to disagree?

wolfsbane

Slav wrote: »

These look more like reading Purgatory into Scripture, tbh.

Where is Purgatory?Peter wrote about Sheol here and Sheol is not Purgatory, is it?

Where is Purgatory? Did Paul give any hints in this passage that he believed in purification fire needed to enter Heaven for those who are saved? I can't see any.

Where is Purgatory? Are you suggesting that the prison here is Purgatory? Then the judge in the previous passage must be God himself?

"Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison." (Matt 5:25)

That is not the God I know. And who is the officer BTW?


Where is Purgatory? First of all, if something cannot be forgiven in the ages to come it does no necessarily mean that something can be forgiven there. Secondly, even if it is the case I still fail to see any references to the purification aspect of that state. Why are you saying "this is purgatory" -- am I missing some logical conclusion here?


Where is Purgatory? Perhaps I'm not very good at puzzles but I don't see any connection between this parable and the catholic purgatory. Could you please explain?



Unfortunately the standards of working with the patristic heritage in the Roman Church are relatively low, probably because there was never a real need for it for the vast majority of Catholics -- indeed, roma locuta, causa finita. As a result we can see such collection of quotes aimed to prove a certain RCC dogma which would make anyone who's only briefly familiar with the authors either laugh or groan.

Well said, Slav. Let me just add:

The whole concept of us being punished for our sin when we leave this life denies the atonement of Christ. It says He bore all the big sins and left us to suffer for all the lesser ones.

The Bible teaches us:
1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

He bore our sins - all of them; by His stripes we are healed, not His plus ours.

patmartino

PDN wrote: »

In a discussion on the Christianity Forum it does. If you don't like that then you are under no obligation to participate.

There is NO biblical evidence for this. What Kelly has posted is completely open to interpretation which is the bibles flaw.

There is none for celibacy.
There is nothing about priests being married.
There was none for Limbo yet the church destroyed the lives of those parents who believed the most.


Vatican is now emphasising Hell is an idea rather than a place.

kelly1

wolfsbane wrote: »

The whole concept of us being punished for our sin when we leave this life denies the atonement of Christ. It says He bore all the big sins and left us to suffer for all the lesser ones.

According to Catholic doctrine, there is temporal and eternal punishment and not all sins merit hell (venial and mortal). Christ came to save us from eternal punishment but due to God's justice we still have to pay a temporal price for sin commited either by good works (charity) or suffering on earth or purgatory.

I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of this verse:

1 Peter 4:8 But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.

What does it mean to cover sins?

patmartino

kelly1 wrote: »

According to Catholic doctrine, there is temporal and eternal punishment and not all sins merit hell (venial and mortal). Christ came to save us from eternal punishment but due to God's justice we still have to pay a temporal price for sin commited either by good works (charity) or suffering on earth or purgatory.

I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of this verse:



What does it mean to cover sins?

It could mean anything.

God is christ, he cannot die, he sent himself to heal us for what, ....

kelly1

patmartino wrote: »

There is none for celibacy.
There is nothing about priests being married.
There was none for Limbo yet the church destroyed the lives of those parents who believed the most.

Vatican is now emphasising Hell is an idea rather than a place.

Where do people get the idea that the Church makes things up as it goes along?

Celibacy is advocated by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:

32 I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. 33 But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 35 I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
......
38 So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better.

Regarding hell, this is also a dogma of the Church which is primarily a state of separation from God and eternal remorse.

Slav

kelly1 wrote: »

Sorry Slav, I really don't want to get into a long drawn-out and fruitless debate over Purgatory. Let's just agree to disagree?

Absolutely, Noel. After all, this way we'll always have something to agree on!

To be honest I was not interested at all at any fruitless debates or at attacking someone beliefs; I'm really sorry if I sounded like this. All I was hoping for is to see a reference to a little bit more serious research about this dogma. This is the area of my personal interest but I have not seen such research so far.

God bless!

patmartino

kelly1 wrote: »

Where do people get the idea that the Church makes things up as it goes along?

Celibacy is advocated by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:



Regarding hell, this is also a dogma of the Church which is primarily a state of separation from God and eternal remorse.

Apologies I should have been crystal clear, Celibacy for priests.

What about addressing Limbo?

The RC church has made up quite a substantial amount of rules that vary with the zeitgest.

postcynical

kelly1, Slav I'm sorry you won't continue the debate. But your posts were very interesting.

For all Christians, I'd love to know views on the following, in simple terms. Is this right?

Saved = accepting Jesus as our saviour and accepting His sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins.

Saved != holiness

Saved != saintliness

The saints are the ones who go straight to heaven. What is in between being saved and being a saint?

Surely God only begins to mould us when we accept His son but many of His works of art die before becoming His masterpieces.

lmaopml

[quote=Slav;63166810

Where is Purgatory?Peter wrote about Sheol here and Sheol is not Purgatory, is it?

[/quote]

Perhaps it is! ....and perhaps it is the place that we 'know' exists in Scripture, between the 1st and 2nd judgement.

Some Christians believe this to be like a 'sleep' and others call it Hades etc.

So we are all in agreement there is a 'third' state other than 'heaven' and 'hell' for people who have passed on? Be it, Hades, Sleep, Purgatory.

I think Kelly has made an excellent case for the 'Catholic' version of the 3rd place / state...........showing the very good references to the common belief in the early Church by the Church Fathers themselves ( which I read, and they truely are convincing and worth the debate! ) and points to several Scripture passages too...that certainly do need some logical assessment and serious discussion....

There was never any arguement in the early church about 'prayers for the dead' ( which is tied in with the dogma of Purgatory ) until the reformation.

I certainly do believe there is such a place, 'another' state other than heaven or hell, where when we aren't quite ready for heaven we go to be prepared.

philologos

lmaopml wrote: »

Perhaps it is! ....and perhaps it is the place that we 'know' exists in Scripture, between the 1st and 2nd judgement.

I'm not sure if there is a place in the middle. There will be a judgement, new Earth and new Jerusalem (heaven), and Hell will be formed. Sheol will probably no longer exist. I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

lmaopml wrote: »

So we are all in agreement there is a 'third' state other than 'heaven' and 'hell' for people who have passed on? Be it, Hades, Sleep, Purgatory.

Not quite. See above.

lmaopml wrote: »

I think Kelly has made an excellent case for the 'Catholic' version of the 3rd place / state...........showing the very good references to the common belief in the early Church by the Church Fathers themselves ( which I read, and they truely are convincing and worth the debate! ) and points to several Scripture passages too...that certainly do need some logical assessment and serious discussion....

Yes, I believe Noel (kelly1) has brought some good points to the discussion. The problem is that the concept of purgatory is not specifically in the Bible. That is the reason why people who are of a non-Catholic position find it difficult to regard the idea of purgatory. My own denomination argues that purgatory is contrived, and has no Biblical basis. I'm obliged to agree, because this is true.

The Church Fathers are fallible, and are subject to error. Hence why I find people like Thomas Aquinas and Augustine to be interesting, but it does not mean that I am obliged to agree with them without question.

The most interesting Catholic case I have read involves the instance in the 2 Maccabees (chapter 12) when Judas Maccabeus' (Yehuda HaMaccabi) army are killed by God due to wearing pagan symbols. In this case Judas offers a sacrifice for the sake that they might be spared the punishment of God.

This was the closest I have got to being convinced of purgatory. I then looked to the passage again. Nowhere does it say that God forgave these men in any way. It merely said that Judas offered a sacrifice in the hope that they would be forgiven.

As a result, this passage cannot be used as evidence for purgatory. Especially since most Protestants do not include 2 Maccabees in their Bibles. I read it out of interest in the pursuit of having read the Greek Orthodox and Catholic scriptures. These books are also recognised by the Church of Ireland to a limited degree, but we are advised not to form doctrine from them.

lmaopml wrote: »

There was never any arguement in the early church about 'prayers for the dead' ( which is tied in with the dogma of Purgatory ) until the reformation.

I'm not sure this was true. If you are referring to the stage after the Apostles this may be true. However, Paul argued that we cannot be saved except by believing in Jesus Christ.

If we are Christians, and if we have sinned. We have received the mercy of Jesus Christ, we have been cleansed entirely by His grace. This is again another issue I have debated with numerous times with a well meaning Catholic friend. We can be forgiven our sins by Jesus Christ alone, nothing else including purgatory is necessary.

About the Reformation, I'm incredibly biased about this. I personally believe it was if not the best thing that happened to the church since Jesus Christ and the Apostles, one of the best things certainly.

lmaopml wrote: »

I certainly do believe there is such a place, 'another' state other than heaven or hell, where when we aren't quite ready for heaven we go to be prepared.

I believe we must be ready to meet our maker. By the by, what do you think happens in purgatory?

Thanks for being so engaging with the topic by the way

lmaopml

I hope you don't mind, I still haven't mastered the multiquote thing, so I'll just use colours intead..:)

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm not sure if there is a place in the middle. There will be a judgement, new Earth and new Jerusalem (heaven), and Hell will be formed. Sheol will probably no longer exist. I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.



So would I.



Yes, I believe Noel (kelly1) has brought some good points to the discussion. The problem is that the concept of purgatory is not specifically in the Bible. This is true, however it doesn't disprove the existence of purgatory, or that belief in 'prayers for the dead' and a 'sanctifying' has always been part of Church teaching...The words 'Trinity' and 'Incarnation' are not found in Scripture either.... That is the reason why people who are of a non-Catholic position find it difficult to regard the idea of purgatory. My own denomination argues that purgatory is contrived, and has no Biblical basis. I'm obliged to agree, because this is true. Depending on perspective?

I think you have hit on the major difference here....it's major and minor too I guess, because we are all Christians at the end of the day. Catholics go by ancient tradition too in order to try to get the fuller picture......right back to before our New Testament scripture and during the time that our new testament scripture came into being, when Christians used 'word of mouth' and wrote letters to various churches, what they did...how they acted etc. There is an interim between the Old and New Testament that we take very seriously, as seriously as scripture, because one interprets the other...

The Church Fathers are fallible, and are subject to error. Hence why I find people like Thomas Aquinas and Augustine to be interesting, but it does not mean that I am obliged to agree with them without question.

Ah yes! Or Maccabies....! So, what is 'infallible'? Surely the Church fathers of the early Church would have known more than the church fathers of the reformed church? Are they infallible?

The most interesting Catholic case I have read involves the instance in the 2 Maccabees (chapter 12) when Judas Maccabeus' (Yehuda HaMaccabi) army are killed by God due to wearing pagan symbols. In this case Judas offers a sacrifice for the sake that they might be spared the punishment of God.

This was the closest I have got to being convinced of purgatory. I then looked to the passage again. Nowhere does it say that God forgave these men in any way. It merely said that Judas offered a sacrifice in the hope that they would be forgiven.

As a result, this passage cannot be used as evidence for purgatory. Especially since most Protestants do not include 2 Maccabees in their Bibles. I read it out of interest in the pursuit of having read the Greek Orthodox and Catholic scriptures. These books are also recognised by the Church of Ireland to a limited degree, but we are advised not to form doctrine from them.


The Catholic Church historically has 73 books....after the reformation, 'I think' you guys have 66 books? The Palistinian Canon?



I'm not sure this was true. If you are referring to the stage after the Apostles this may be true. However, Paul argued that we cannot be saved except by believing in Jesus Christ.

Ahh the 'big' difference!...and this is where the debate would always lead, I'm sure you will agree! I would agree to disagree on this too, as the Catholic Church wouldn't say Paul 'argued' that point at all....Catholics too believe that we are saved in Jesus, but not just by 'faith' alone....we have to practice it outwardly in charity to our fellow Christians...and we are judged on 'both'.

If we are Christians, and if we have sinned. We have received the mercy of Jesus Christ, we have been cleansed entirely by His grace. This is again another issue I have debated with numerous times with a well meaning Catholic friend. We can be forgiven our sins by Jesus Christ alone, nothing else including purgatory is necessary.

About the Reformation, I'm incredibly biased about this. LOL I personally believe it was if not the best thing that happened to the church since Jesus Christ and the Apostles, one of the best things certainly.

You are entitled to that as are others to their own faith too....we're all finding our way..



I believe we must be ready to meet our maker. Me too! He is one and the same

By the by, what do you think happens in purgatory?

Catholics believe, and again I'm open to correction because I'm kinda new to it....... that literally nothing unclean can enter heaven, and that sin of any kind no matter how much 'faith' one has stains the soul unless we are truely truely sorry for it....We believe purgatory basically cleanses us for God's presence of those sins we have kept in our heart and never truely acknowledged even to ourselves....and confessed to God.


Thanks for being so engaging with the topic by the way

You too It's good to see the differences, and I find it very interesting, because as I say I'm learning too...

Soul Winner

If purgatory is real then there is no such thing as justification through Christ. It states four times in scripture that the just by faith shall live.

“Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.” Habakkuk 2:4

“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” Romans 1:17

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” Galatians 3:11

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” Hebrews 10:38

But what does it mean to be just? To be just means that you are justified in God’s sight. And when you are justified in God’s sight you are viewed as just like Christ even though you are not, just as He was viewed as just like us when God poured out His wrath on Him on the cross even though He was not.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

So if you are going to heaven then it is because of your faith in Christ who justifies you. In short, even though you might be a sinner according to the flesh you are not seen as a sinner from God's point of view anymore as long as you keep your faith connection in Christ. You are seen or viewed as just like Jesus judicially speaking, even tough you are not. Just like courts of law on earth who hold people innocent until proven guilty. That is what’s known as judicial imputation of innocence even though you might be as guilty as hell.

For faith, God imputes righteousness to us. Our faith is what gets us that status before God, not our performance. So if we are justified by Christ, then why do we need to be purged through suffering in purgatory? If there is such a place then there is no such thing as justification in Christ. Or if there is justification through the blood of Christ and there is also a need for purgatory, then the blood of Christ is not very efficacious is it? Which is like saying that the sufferings of Christ were not enough to purge us from our sins. Does anyone want to stand before God the Father and tell Him that the blood of His only begotten Son was not good enough to purge us form our sins? I rest my case.

PDN

Rb wrote: »

And you see nothing humourous about taking the (very conflicting) words of men who lived in caves and mud huts a few thousand years ago as evidence in this day and age?

No, I don't. But if you want to assert that it is humorous then I suggest the Atheist and Agnostic forum as a place where you can express that view. (But first of all you may want to brush up on your history and geography. The biblical authors lived in houses and tents.)

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Soul Winner

Plowman wrote: »

Even if our faith takes precedence over our actions, surely we must try to live good lives too?

The problem with that is that we can’t, not in our own strength, we need God to quicken our mortal bodies. By simply trusting in God’s promises, which is what faith is, we connect to God and a sort of conduit is established where He places in us a deposit of His own nature. Maintained long enough this deposit of God’s spirit-life will effect change in our nature, produce good works and lead to even more faith which in turn will lead on to bigger and better good works. Good works are simply the fruits or expressions of God’s spirit in us by faith. If we lose the faith connection then it is like turning the power switch off. No amount of fumbling around in the dark trying to imitate Jesus will pass muster with God. If you are not acting in faith on His promises then His spirit is not working in you and if His spirit is not working in you then you are none of His. All the good works in the world are nothing without faith. We cannot get God’s spirit in us by deserving it by our works. We can never deserve it. The word grace means unmerited favor, it cannot be earned. Sure God wants to see fruit but we cannot produce that fruit without faith. So it is imperative that the focus on faith alone be maintained, else the connection be lost and no amount of will power induced good works will suffice because without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6

Plowman wrote: »

Yes, we must all believe in order to be saved, but are we really saved by faith alone.?

Yes we are saved by faith alone. As said above, the rest all flows from faith anyway. Even if we produce the best works in the world due to our faith in God, those works are not the basis by which God saves us, it is always based on our faith, which is simply trusting in His Word of promise daily.

Plowman wrote: »

It just seems too simple that a lesser-committed believer (but a believer nonetheless) is entitled to the same treatment as someone who has consciously committed their lives to their faith.

If you think that God’s ways are unfair then listen to the lesson Jesus Himself teaches in The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard:

"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?' " 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.' When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' "So the last will be first, and the first will be last." Matthew 20:1-16

Plowman wrote: »

This is how Purgatory can allow for the salvation of both, as they are judged by the standards by which they each lived their lives.

Well the parable above suggests that everyone gets paid by the same method, no matter how long you have been committed to God in your life. Genuine death bed conversions are as valid as childhood ones, as long as faith in God’s promises is there, then God is bound by His Word to honor it. The parable above teaches that God does not discriminate between early starters and late starters.

Plowman wrote: »

Perhaps faith can be understood as something we perform or live out, so this makes good works an important consequence of faith?

That’s true. But don’t put the cart before the horse. Faith produces good works, good works cannot produce faith. "...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 There are millions of people who do good works all the time but have no faith in God. God wants faith first then He’ll be please with the works that flow there-from.

Plowman wrote: »

Also, I may be wrong, but I understand that Jesus died specifically to make reparation for Adam and Eve's transgression, and that our baptism affirms this. Therefore we are still responsible for what actions we take and what sins we commit throughout our lives, and we must make reparation for them ourselves. This doesn't undermine the fact that humanity could not have been saved without Jesus, but we are still capable of sin, and we still must pay for it.

Jesus made reparation for all sins. Every man's, woman's, and child's throughout all of history. That’s how precious His blood is. To turn around and say that we must also make reparations is to insult God and to trod underfoot the blood of Christ. Because of one man’s sin God put all of us under death, but because of one Man’s death God has opened the door back to Him and we walk through that door by faith, we can never earn what He did for us.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast" Ephesians 2:8-9

Plowman wrote: »

Sorry if my post is meandering, I'm trying to think this thread out. And it's 1.30.

I forgive you. Late nights can make us think all kinds of stupid things. :pac:

koHd

I have a book that says it's real. So it must be.

philologos

lmaopml wrote: »

This is true, however it doesn't disprove the existence of purgatory, or that belief in 'prayers for the dead' and a 'sanctifying' has always been part of Church teaching...The words 'Trinity' and 'Incarnation' are not found in Scripture either....

Right. Although the word "Trinity", and "Incarnation" are not themselves in scripture. The concept of the Immanuel, and the reference of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are made clear in Scripture.

I don't think I could argue the same in respect to purgatory. The best we get is the term "prison" which doesn't lead us any closer to the concept of purgatory. Prison could well refer to hell in many peoples mindsets rather than purgatory. As far as I know most people equate it to Sheol due to the fact that the judgement hasn't come.

However, it is a stretch to suggest that Sheol is a place of punishment. There isn't anything really to suggest this either.

Personally, in my case, if I cannot find a solid basis for something in Scripture, it makes it more difficult to subscribe to it in terms of theology.

lmaopml wrote: »

I think you have hit on the major difference here....it's major and minor too I guess, because we are all Christians at the end of the day. Catholics go by ancient tradition too in order to try to get the fuller picture......right back to before our New Testament scripture and during the time that our new testament scripture came into being, when Christians used 'word of mouth' and wrote letters to various churches, what they did...how they acted etc. There is an interim between the Old and New Testament that we take very seriously, as seriously as scripture, because one interprets the other...

Well, people of a Reformed mindset would look to Old Testament writings in order to give light to the New Testament. The Old Testament scriptures serve as a shadow for what is to come.

I personally think that it is better to focus on what is necessary for salvation first and foremost before divulging into other texts, which of course can be valuable with discernment.

The reason why the Apocrypha wasn't included in post-Luther Bibles was because it was not included in the Jewish Scriptures (as you say Palestinian Canon) following Christ.

lmaopml wrote: »

Ah yes! Or Maccabies....! So, what is 'infallible'? Surely the Church fathers of the early Church would have known more than the church fathers of the reformed church? Are they infallible?

Infallible, being that it is God revealed rather than the result of human reasoning.

Bearing in mind that I do not take the opinion of either the Reformers or of the Church Fathers to be infallible but rather what is contained in the Bible which contains all things necessary for salvation.

lmaopml wrote: »

The Catholic Church historically has 73 books....after the reformation, 'I think' you guys have 66 books? The Palistinian Canon?

That's right, the Church of Ireland do accept the use the 73 book Bible but do not allow any doctrine to be formed based on the Apocryphal books.

lmaopml wrote: »

Ahh the 'big' difference!...and this is where the debate would always lead, I'm sure you will agree! I would agree to disagree on this too, as the Catholic Church wouldn't say Paul 'argued' that point at all....Catholics too believe that we are saved in Jesus, but not just by 'faith' alone....we have to practice it outwardly in charity to our fellow Christians...and we are judged on 'both'.

I think that faith is not proper unless it bears fruit. Jesus made this clear with his demonstration of the fig tree. However, we can only bear fruit if we have faith in the first place.

Nobody says that we shouldn't live a good and honourable Christian life, rather this comes as the fruit of faith. If this fruit does not show, it is not faith at all.

kelly1

postcynical wrote: »

kelly1, Slav I'm sorry you won't continue the debate. But your posts were very interesting.

It's a long drawn-out debate with multiple points to respond to that I'm trying to avoid. I don't have the time. I prefer to deal with one point at a time. One of the downfalls of this forum I believe.

postcynical wrote: »

For all Christians, I'd love to know views on the following, in simple terms. Is this right?

Saved = accepting Jesus as our saviour and accepting His sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins.

Saved != holiness

Saved != saintliness

The saints are the ones who go straight to heaven. What is in between being saved and being a saint?

Surely God only begins to mould us when we accept His son but many of His works of art die before becoming His masterpieces.

For a Catholic, being saved means dying in a state of grace i.e. with the Holy Spirit dwelling within our soul. I'm not going to dare say who is and who isn't saved but I do know what salvation is only possible through Jesus. But we must persevere to the end in avoiding sin (and doing good works) i.e. finish the race.

We remain in the state of grace until we commit mortal sin i.e. a sin which is grave (e.g. breaking the 10 commandments and related sins), is done with our knowledge that it's grave and is done freely. But we are again justified when we confess our sins and ask for God's mercy and pardon for the offence against His goodness.

Venials sins, i.e. ones which aren't as serious e.g spending too much time on the net while ignoring ones family (:)) do not merit eternal damnation but do close us off to the action of God's grace. When we die, the effect of these sins is carried with us into the next life and they must be erased in purgatory. Ideally out purgatory should happen on earth so we don't have to go to the real purgatory.

The way I look at it, God want us to be truly mature followers of Christ and that means being serious about loving God and others and not glossing over our short-comings. Sin upsets the order that God has established in the universe so I don't think He's going to simply overlook our failings. While Jesus saves us from hell, we still have a price to pay for the sins we commit. Why would it be otherwise? What about divine Justice?

Jesus told us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect but who among us can claim to be perfect. Not me for sure! Only the perfect will enter heaven, only those who are totally oriented to the will of God. We're all inclined to overlook our selfishness but it will catch up with us.

That's what I think anyway!

philologos

Why would we have a price to pay, if Jesus died for the sins of the world (all of them)?

kelly1

Jakkass wrote: »

Why would we have a price to pay, if Jesus died for the sins of the world (all of them)?

To give an extreme example, lets say Hitler converted and repented just before he died. Would you expect God to welcome him into heaven with open arms, no questions asked, not a word about the holocaust of God's chosen people?

Would it be fair that someone who sacrificed their lives to live for Christ (e.g. Mother Teresa) would be treated the same as Hitler??

Do people really think that God doesn't take past sins into account on the day of judgment as long as we believe in Jesus?

philologos

Part of repentance is recognising that you deserve to go to hell. I personally don't believe any human on this earth is good enough to go to heaven. We are only restored to that position by Christ's mercy. If Hitler had genuinely repented of his sins, and if Hitler genuinely changed as a person, I would see no reason why under the Christian framework he would not be able to be forgiven.

Edit: I am no more deserving of heaven than Hitler is. I don't deserve it at all, it is only for grace that this option is possible.

Soul Winner

Plus Hitler was a Roman Catholic. He was baptized, made holy communion, was confirmed etc... I thought under Catholicism that made you OK with God? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But if that is the case then there is no purgatory for Hitler.

Noel in all seriousness, purgatory is a man made tradition based on pagan idolatry. The idea is not unique to nor does it have its origins in Christianity. If it was true then there would be a lot more said about in the New Testament surely. Such a place would be somewhere to avoid. Jesus spoke more about hell than He did about Heaven and yet not a word about Purgatory. I can respect that you believe it exists because of your Catholic faith but trying to shape it into a scriptural doctrine is pointless. It doesn't fit in. The closest you'll come is Hades or Sheol or Paradise. This place does seem to be divided in two by some sort of chasm, where on one side there is torment and on the other side there is joy, possibly the place where Jesus descended to after He expired on the cross in order preach to those on the joy side, where Abraham was with the servant boy in the parable Jesus told about the rich servant who had the easy life, and where Jesus said He would be with one of the two thieves, but neither of these places is either heaven or the lake of fire and neither of these places is described as a place to be purged of sin through suffering. Those left in the torment side will eventually be cast into the lake of fire as described in the book of Revelation, those on the joy side will rise in the resurrection to eternal life with Christ. The only purging for sins that went on in the New Testament was Christ's on the cross. And that is based on His own nature which is eternal. His sacrifice will always be forever adequate and there'll never come a time when some purging is needed from us. If we could purge ourselves from sin then we would not need Christ in the first place. If that's true on earth and its true in heaven then even if Purgatory did exist it would be true there to. It would be a place where a sinner would forever be suffering, because no amount of suffering on our part can purge us from our sin. Only the sufferings of Christ can do that, because His suffering was perfect, ours can never be.

waffleman

darno wrote: »

is purgutory real ?,,,,,,,i hope so i want my family and friends to be saved

HAH! of course purgutory exists! However if you give generously to your church collection tray then you can spend less time there or even skip it altogether

kelly1

Jakkass wrote: »

Part of repentance is recognising that you deserve to go to hell. I personally don't believe any human on this earth is good enough to go to heaven. We are only restored to that position by Christ's mercy.

Agreed, none of us is worthy. But I believe what makes us worthy to enter heaven is the presence of the Holy Spirit in our souls and our union with Jesus in the Body of Christ.

Jakkass wrote: »

If Hitler had genuinely repented of his sins, and if Hitler genuinely changed as a person, I would see no reason why under the Christian framework he would not be able to be forgiven.

I think our understand of forgiveness is a bit different. I believe Hitler would be forgiven the guilt of his sins i.e he'd be saved from hell. Afterall, isn't salvation being saved from hell?

But I still think there's a price to pay for sins committed. To use an analogy, let's say I broke and window and got caught by the owner of the house. If I don't say sorry, he's going to get me sent to jail. But if I say I'm sorry and offer to pay to get the window fixed, he'll agree not to call the guards.

So I think when we're forgiven it means not going to jail but we still have to pay the price for the damage done. And I think this is what Jesus meant in Mt. 5:26 "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny".

I also think good works and penance are the means by which we pay the "temporal" (not eternal) price for our sins. I believe 1 Peter 4:8 backs this up:
"... for charity covers a multitude of sins".

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Plus Hitler was a Roman Catholic. He was baptized, made holy communion, was confirmed etc... I thought under Catholicism that made you OK with God? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But if that is the case then there is no purgatory for Hitler.

Baptism etc is no guarantee of salvation. It doesn't prevent us from commiting mortal sins.

Soul Winner wrote: »

.....His sacrifice will always be forever adequate and there'll never come a time when some purging is needed from us. If we could purge ourselves from sin then we would not need Christ in the first place. If that's true on earth and its true in heaven then even if Purgatory did exist it would be true there to. It would be a place where a sinner would forever be suffering, because no amount of suffering on our part can purge us from our sin. Only the sufferings of Christ can do that, because His suffering was perfect, ours can never be.

You seem to have completely misunderstoody my posts

patmartino

Ok, we now are agreed that

Limbo, purgatory, are not in the bible.

how does the church still explain this?

therewillbe

NO!