New Puppy is this cruel??

alanceltic · 23-11-2009 1:53pm #1

Hi Guys,

Got a puppy 2 weeks ago (hes now 12 weeks old) and to be honest hadnt fully taught through where to keep him in the house. He is a Bischon and he is mad as a brush - in a good way. We plan to keep him indoors as he looks way too small to leave outside at night in the cold. For the first week there was a lot of whimpering at night time but he has settled down.

We have his bed in the utility room and he loves it, he likes it so much that somethimes he has to be encouraged out of it. There is nobody at home during the day until 3PM, up to now the dog has been given the free run of the utility & kitchen during the daytime (when he is home alone) and he has been doing what a pup does best - pooping and weeing everywhere. The question I have is - is it cruel/unkind to put him in the utility room with a stair gate across from 9am-3pm?????

I also have a shed out the back and have considered putting him in the shed during the day as he would have more room but it might be a bit colder?

Any comments you have would be very helpful.

hunterwelly · 23-11-2009 2:15pm

The question I have is - is it cruel/unkind to put him in the utility room with a stair gate across from 9am-3pm?????

No, it's not at all cruel. Dogs don't needs lots of space, they need you. A dog left alone in a small space will lie down and happily go to sleep while you're away. A dog in a large space that allows them to pace around can only make them anxious.

The dog needs a space big enough to accommodate a corner to sleep, a corner to eat and drink, and a corner to do its business (the corner furthest away from the sleeping and eating corners usually).

If you want to go the outside route, you'd be better off with a small kennel, rather than the big shed. The dog's body heat needs to heat the kennel, so you want one barely big enough for the dog to stand up and turn around in. Face the kennel into the house (to keep wind out of the kennel, and so the dog can look into the house). If you have a patio with a glass patio door, that's ideal.

Make sure your garden is fully enclosed, or you will need to build a run. Don't tie the dog up.

Give your dog plenty of exercise and mental stimulation (training etc) when you get home, and he'll be the finest.

rhonin · 23-11-2009 3:17pm

Congrats on your new pup. We have a Bichon and she is just over a year old and she is a bit of a diva but you wouldn't have them any other way

We used to leave her in the kitchen when we were away from the house. Wherever you leave him, make sure its puppy proof. Leave him a kong and some toys to keep him occupied.

Don't leave him outside or in the shed especially this time of year.

MacBaldy · 23-11-2009 3:28pm

we have got a bichon aswell, very affectionate, an wants to go everywhere u want to, he 13 weeks now, hates been alone

Klove · 25-11-2009 5:25pm

I don't think its cruel at all, your puppy will be warm and safe and happy and that's the main thing.

Allgäuerin · 26-11-2009 11:58am

in my opinion it is cruel, because the puppy is much too young to be left alone for 6 HOURS!!!!!:mad:

madrabui · 26-11-2009 12:11pm

9-3 is a long time for any dog. The lack of stimulation might drive them a bit nuts. As you posted this question you must be a caring person. Are you friendly at all with any neighbour who could check on him?

Re: the peeing etc. Restrict the pups space into a small area. They won't like to soil they own area.

Sigma Force · 26-11-2009 11:20pm

To be honest that lenght of time is too long for a pup of that age to be left alone, the pup is bound to poop and pee everywhere they can't hold it for that long normally at that age.

Don't go putting him out in a shed it's too cold he, he needs the warmth and he's used to being inside.

Confining him to a smaller space is all well and good but he'll still need to pee and poop so the smaller the space the more he'll try and hold on but won't be able to at that age so will end up walking in it and soiling himself.

LBD · 26-11-2009 11:20pm

Allgäuerin wrote: »

in my opinion it is cruel, because the puppy is much too young to be left alone for 6 HOURS!!!!!:mad:

What is the op's alternative? How long are they supposed to take off work......2weeks 2months? Seriously!!!!!!!! I suppose only unemployed people should get dogs now :rolleyes:

Op sounds like you're doing fine. We have two dogs and when they were young we made sure to leave them access to plenty of water, a few toys and a bit of grub....I would keep him inside though bit too cold outside for the little fella. We keep our lads in the kitchen now which has worked out grand as they used to have the run of the house aswell but I think we're all happier now that they've got some boundaries. It's good to get them into a routine when they are young....

We used to have a baby gate across the stairs cos they used to love running up and down the stairs!!! was so funny to see them lookin through it

Blueprint · 26-11-2009 11:36pm

LBD wrote: »

What is the op's alternative? How long are they supposed to take off work......2weeks 2months? Seriously!!!!!!!! I suppose only unemployed people should get dogs now :rolleyes:

Op sounds like you're doing fine. We have two dogs and when they were young we made sure to leave them access to plenty of water, a few toys and a bit of grub....I would keep him inside though bit too cold outside for the little fella. We keep our lads in the kitchen now which has worked out grand as they used to have the run of the house aswell but I think we're all happier now that they've got some boundaries. It's good to get them into a routine when they are young....

We used to have a baby gate across the stairs cos they used to love running up and down the stairs!!! was so funny to see them lookin through it

If you work full time, you shouldn't get a young puppy. I got a dog over six months old due to knowing that there were two days a week I wouldn't have that much time to spend with him and I didn't think it was fair on a younger dog. (I was working 12 hour night shifts at the time so I knew that he'd never be left on his own, as there were other people in the house, but he would be a little under-stimulated for a few hours!) There's plenty of older dogs in rescue looking for good homes.

LBD · 26-11-2009 11:39pm

Blueprint wrote: »

If you work full time, you shouldn't get a young puppy. I got a dog over six months old due to knowing that there were two days a week I wouldn't have that much time to spend with him and I didn't think it was fair on a younger dog. (I was working 12 hour night shifts at the time so I knew that he'd never be left on his own, as there were other people in the house, but he would be a little under-stimulated for a few hours!) There's plenty of older dogs in rescue looking for good homes.

Completely entitled to your opinion, we'll agree to disagree on that one. Unfortunately that doesnt answer the op's question though.

As a matter of interest what are the lasting effects I should look out for in my two doggies as a result of leaving them while I'm in work?:rolleyes:

Paul91 · 27-11-2009 11:19am

LBD wrote: »

Completely entitled to your opinion, we'll agree to disagree on that one. Unfortunately that doesnt answer the op's question though.

As a matter of interest what are the lasting effects I should look out for in my two doggies as a result of leaving them while I'm in work?:rolleyes:

my opinion is a dog is better off in a home where he is fed, walked and looked after as opposed to being PTS even if the person is out to work during the day - could always get two dogs ;o) I got 7 at the moment - oops

hunterwelly · 27-11-2009 11:30am

Bleeding hearts crying "cruelty!" at anyone who can't stay at home all day with their dog in their lap is only going to result in less people keeping dogs. Which means more dogs abandoned, living in shelters, or taken to the pound and put down.

Do the best you can for your dog and get on with your life.

peasant · 27-11-2009 12:58pm

hunterwelly wrote: »

... less people keeping dogs. Which means more dogs abandoned..

OT ...but what the heck ...

Less people keeping dogs would very quickly lead to people "producing" less dogs ...so the oversupply (which is the problem in the first place) would be reduced ...result: less dogs in shelters, less dogs PTS.

Don't make out like taking a dog in less than ideal circumstances is a good thing or doing the dog a massive favour.
Yes, that individual dog may be marginally better off than in the pound or pts ...but it will only be replaced by another one.
Also, as the number of people who keep dogs in marginal circumstances grows, this then becomes the norm instead of the exception ...to the detriment of the general dog population.

tesslab · 27-11-2009 1:21pm

op have you considered doggy day care maybe even a couple of days a week? Some do good deals when your dog attends more than 1 day a week. maybe worth looking into if its an affordable option.

hunterwelly · 27-11-2009 1:35pm

Less people keeping dogs would very quickly lead to people "producing" less dogs ...so the oversupply (which is the problem in the first place) would be reduced ...result: less dogs in shelters, less dogs PTS.

On the surface, this argument seems to make sense, but your logic is flawed. You're making the assumption that the production of puppies is sensibly linked to the demand. Clearly this is not the case, looking at the current over-production. And this over-production isn't a new thing either. It's been happening for years.

Responsible breeders who produce purebred pups usually have no difficulty finding homes for them. But the majority of dogs that end up in shelters are the result of accidental pregnancies due to dogs that are left to wander around while their owners are at work.

If you want to crusade against something, crusade against dogs left wandering around. Just remember that every dog you call the warden on, is a dog whose death warrant you've just signed. If you're happy with that, knock yourself out.

OP isn't letting his dog wander. He's doing the best he can. Give him a break.

Paul91 · 27-11-2009 1:47pm

peasant wrote: »

OT ...but what the heck ...

Less people keeping dogs would very quickly lead to people "producing" less dogs ...so the oversupply (which is the problem in the first place) would be reduced ...result: less dogs in shelters, less dogs PTS.

Don't make out like taking a dog in less than ideal circumstances is a good thing or doing the dog a massive favour.
Yes, that individual dog may be marginally better off than in the pound or pts ...but it will only be replaced by another one.
Also, as the number of people who keep dogs in marginal circumstances grows, this then becomes the norm instead of the exception ...to the detriment of the general dog population.

how is me keeping four rescue dogs, all neutered, creating an oversupply? I really don't see how it is cruel either, they have food, water, toys, shelter, walked twice a day and sleep indoors - they also have each other for company - would you rather I went home took them to the Vet's and had them PTS and never took another dog in untill i retire? oh and then off course would have to sit in all day?

if you want to solve the "problem" stop the SCPA's releasing un-neutered dogs and get them all tagged to know the origin.

Jemmy · 27-11-2009 1:48pm

tesslab wrote: »

op have you considered doggy day care maybe even a couple of days a week? Some do good deals when your dog attends more than 1 day a week. maybe worth looking into if its an affordable option.

This could be an option if your worried, the groomers where my sisters works has a doggie daycare. I think it's 50 for the full monday to friday, 10 a day is not bad IF you can afford it but then when hes old enough to not need it he will be lonely not going anymore. Might be worse.

Tbh I don't see the problem with putting the gate up once he has a toy or 2 water bit of food maybe and newspaper if your training him. They aren't like kids you can't give up work just to mind them!

There are worse things you could do than leave him for 6hrs to amuse himself, and you sound very caring when you are around. SO don't mind the cruelty comments, your not being cruel at all. :rolleyes:

peasant · 27-11-2009 1:52pm

hunterwelly wrote: »

But the majority of dogs that end up in shelters are the result of accidental pregnancies due to dogs that are left to wander around while their owners are at work.

The majority of dogs that end up in shelters do so later in life and not as pups.
They do end up there because their owners don't want them any more. Usual reasons are:
-the dog got bigger than we thought
-the dog is too much work
-the dog is destructive
-the dog barks too much
-the dog peed on the new carpet
-the kids have lost interest
-I don't have time for the dog
-the dog has become unmanageable

All these dogs were "wanted" at one point and either bought or "rescued" only to fall out of grace later on.

ONE of the reasons why dogs become too much work/destructive/unmanageable/bark a lot/whatever is because there was nobody there to dedicate enough time to them for training, excercise and control.

It's a viscious circle.

There is no "bleeding heart" about it ...if only those people got dogs that had enough time and commitment for the dog, then dogs as a whole would be better off, not worse.

This is not directed at the OP, just a general remark

hunterwelly · 27-11-2009 2:05pm

if only those people got dogs that had enough time and commitment for the dog, then dogs as a whole would be better off, not worse.

I agree, but my definition of "enough time" makes allowances for people who have to work for a living. Your definition it seems, does not.

What I would like to see is more owner education, not less owners. If every dog owner:

- had a basic understanding of dog behaviour/psychology,
- had basic medical understanding
- had the know-how and commitment to give their dogs basic obedience training,
- kept their dog under control
- socialised their dog to prevent fear-based aggression
- provided plenty of exercise and discipline

then I think many behavioural problems would never surface, and dogs as a whole would be a lot better off. And so would their owners.

peasant · 27-11-2009 2:31pm

hunterwelly wrote: »

I agree, but my definition of "enough time" makes allowances for people who have to work for a living. Your definition it seems, does not.

We all have to work (me included), but our circumstances differ.
Some people can fit a dog in, others can't.

It's not only the time the dog spends on its own, but also the other times when there is someone around but the dog is still sidelined because normal household chores take precedence.

It is the actual amount of (awake) time that you can dedicate to your dog that matters. If that isn't several hours at least, then don't get a dog ...whether you're working or not.

Blueprint · 27-11-2009 2:57pm

hunterwelly wrote: »

Bleeding hearts crying "cruelty!" at anyone who can't stay at home all day with their dog in their lap is only going to result in less people keeping dogs. Which means more dogs abandoned, living in shelters, or taken to the pound and put down.

Do the best you can for your dog and get on with your life.

No one said it was cruel to keep a dog at home all day on it's own (I know my guy would be fine at this stage of his life as long as I gave him enough exercise), but it is far from ideal to keep a young puppy at home all day on its own and you are better off getting an older dog from rescue if those are your circumstances.

Having a dog is a privilege, not a right in IMHO and if people put more time and effort in thinking everything through before getting a cute puppy, less dogs would end up in rescue later on due to issues that could have been avoided. And yes, I used up all my annual holidays on caring for my dog properly the year I got him and every other day off I had that year - he was well worth it! I waited 20 years to get him as I wanted a dog ever since I was a kid, but the circumstances were never right as I didn't own my own house, so couldn't risk us being left homeless due to no one renting to people with pets.

Sorry Op, I know this isn't really of any use to you, I was merely answering LBD's post about people being stupid to suggest one takes time off to look after a new puppy!

LBD · 27-11-2009 3:03pm

Blueprint wrote: »

Sorry Op, I know this isn't really of any use to you, I was merely answering LBD's post about people being stupid to suggest one takes time off to look after a new puppy!

Excuse me blueprint NEVER did I say they were stupid what I actually asked was how long were people supposed to take off....And could you tell me the lasting effects of leaving the pup on their own (which you didn't answer) I can't seem to see any in mine. I have two very happy (well I assume they are they havent said otherwise

) well behaved and loved dogs. Sounds like you thought alot about getting your dog.... so did I before I got my two but in no way does your situation make you any better of a dog owner or more entitled then anyone else.

But as I said your opinion.....

alanceltic · 02-12-2009 9:17pm

Thanks for the replies guys. I can see peoples points about the merits or otherwise of working people getting dogs but dont want to go off topic as its another argument altogether. Sure it was a bit of an oversight (and I can be honest about that) but from the time someone is home (and we felt it wasnt too late being 3pm) the dog is very well loved & cared for and at this point we really want to do what is best for the DOG not for us. It appears that there is a real divide in peoples opinions and that just makes any decision ever more difficult to make.

If there was an over-riding opinion one way or the other then I could justify following a certain path but im just as confused now as before i posted

lrushe · 03-12-2009 12:43am

My opinion is, its a matter of quality over quantity. I work a 39 hour week but my dogs are walked everyday for an hour to hour and half come rain, hail or shine either before I go to work or after I come home. I stucture training, playing, grooming, feeding etc. around my work hours and the dogs seem to thrive on the routine. My neighbours in contrast have 3 dogs (2 medium sized, 1 small), they never see the outside of the house / back garden despite the fact that my neighbours don't work, the dogs spend the whole day whinging and barking, they've nothing to look forward to in life, I often find myself wondering why they even have dogs?! If you were to count up how many hours my neighbours physically spends with their dogs and how many I spend with mine they would win, but if the dogs could talk I'd be fairly confident my dogs would be the happiest.

Klove · 03-12-2009 9:32am

OP, speaking from experience, we got our puppy at 3 or 4 mths old and we were both working full time. It did feel cruel to leave him at home all day long initially but tbh he seemed to just sleep and when we got home we made sure to walk him and give him lots of our time, and after a while, his routine was established and he is definitely one of the happiest dogs I have ever encountered.

IMHO it would be much more cruel to leave a young puppy outside (and also, given your dog is such a valuable one, there is also the possibility that he may be stolen from your garden) and once he is warm and happy and safe he'll be fine. I think you're very lucky that someone can get home to him at 3pm too, that's much earlier than most people can manage!

kakee · 03-12-2009 12:42pm

OP I thinks its ok to leave the puppy on his own at this age. To try and stop the peeing and pooing you could walk the dog for a while just before you leave the house. I would agree with restricting his space but try to encourage him to go potty on newspaper in one corner for example. Even when you come home if you see him going to the toilet anywhere indoors bring him to the same spot in the utility room. If you use a few layers of newspaper you can leave the last layer and put it to the top next time so he will recognize the sent. Bichons are fast learners and he will get the hang of it in no time as long as you are consistent. Don't leave the dog outside unless somebody is there as too many dogs are being stolen even when the owners are home.

New Puppy is this cruel??

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