Public Service Pay Cut 2%

P. Breathnach

Riskymove wrote: »

did he say how he would do it?

It doesn't matter. He's not going to have the opportunity, and he wouldn't want it.

His pronouncements were simply another tactic for getting publicity for what really matters to him: increasing profits for Ryanair.

Riskymove

It doesn't matter. He's not going to have the opportunity, and he wouldn't want it.

On previous form- by slashing anything that couldn't be justified inside of 2 sentences

Yes thanks I know all that..and you are of course, correct...I am wondering about jimmmy's answer and his views on leadership

OMD

Riskymove wrote: »

the answer is still the same as my first post

this is just a media story


there were other stories in other papers mentioning higher cuts

So how high would the pay cuts have to be to justify a strik?
If 2% is acceptable. What is not acceptable?
To be honest a pay cut over 4% was never on the cards from government announcements

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

did he say how he would do it?

There is a seperate thread and link on that : read it yourself.

jimmmy

smccarrick wrote: »

- knowing Michael O'Leary- its entirely possible that social welfare could be abolished in its entirety.........

Rubbish. Reading the papers at the weekend - and the link in the thread on Michael O'Leary - I do not recall where he said anything of the sort.

kippy

This two weeks enforced unpaid leave would work out at almost a 4% cut in gross spend by the government on wages. Nothing wrong with the idea per se. It could be the next in a line of cost saving measures.

Riskymove

OMD wrote: »

Riskymove wrote: »

So how high would the pay cuts have to be to justify a strik?
If 2% is acceptable. What is not acceptable?

in my own opinion, unless they went crazy (10% +) I dont think strikes like we are having tomorrow are acceptable at all


dont forget its actually 2,4 and 6% on top of an average 7.5% levy and 6% or so foregone from an agreed deal + reductions in allowances in many areas etc on top of income and health levies and prsi increases etc


I believe that by not telling us what they are doing, they are allowing people to be stirred up and scared into acting in such a manner

tomorrow, rather than being against any particular actions, has become some sort of "action day" to show a united front by the public sector that they are not just gonna take anything and that the government should act in agreement with unions.

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

Rubbish. Reading the papers at the weekend - and the link in the thread on Michael O'Leary - I do not recall where he said anything of the sort.

Jimmy, seriously, whatever shred of respect people have for you in your quest, it will be all but lost if you consider MoL to be anything but a WUM and marketing man of the highest order.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

There is a seperate thread and link on that : read it yourself.

well maybe you should have stuck to that thread and not drag this one off topic like all the others!

McTigs

jimmmy wrote: »

Talking about 2% or 1 % or 0.6% of public sector pay is a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Public servants in this country are paid 40% more than the average in the eurozone, according to Eurostat. Talking about cutting about 2% or 1 % or 0.6% of public sector pay is a bit like trying to save Aer Lingus by getting the Aer Lingus staff to work 1% harder. Its time for proper cuts, instead of a 2% or 1% cut which may save a few hundred million . - the sooner the better. Michael O'Leary said he would slash 20 billion of govt expenditure. Now theres a leader.;)

Agreed.

I will be really pissed off if this is true. If the PS are going to kick up blue murder anyway and "bring the country to a standstill" then cut 7% on lower, 12% on middle and 15% on upper and be done with it.... they'll still be very well paid.

If the country has to endure a nationwide strike tomorrow and possibly more down the road, we best make it worthwhile and make some decent savings

OMD

McTigs wrote: »

Agreed.

I will be really pissed off if this is true. If the PS are going to kick up blue murder anyway and "bring the country to a standstill" then cut 7% on lower, 12% on middle and 15% on upper and be done with it.... they'll still be very well paid.

If the country has to endure a nationwide strike tomorrow and possibly more down the road, we best make it worthwhile and make some decent savings

The government has said for ages that it wants to cut 1.3Billion from public sector pay bill. This works out at an average 6% cut. A lot of this will be cuts in overtime and early retirement/natural wastage and loss of contract workers. Why are people in both public sector and private sector surprised that the cuts will be this small. It has been flagged for months.

jimmmy

kippy wrote: »

Jimmy, seriously, whatever shred of respect people have for you in your quest, it will be all but lost if you consider MoL to be anything but a WUM and marketing man of the highest order.

He is one of the top businessmen in the country, and someone who has created the biggest brand to come out of Ireland since the eighties. Its one of the biggest airlines in the world, and one of the few of Irelands home grown success stories. Along with another top Irrsh business person, they were asked in the papers at the weekend wat they would do with the economy ( he does seem to know a lot about controlling budgets etc ). Most people would find his opinions on the real world and economics more believeable and his business track record more plausible that the muppets - the social partners - who have been running the counrty / deciding govt expenditure over the past decade.
My point was"Talking about 2% or 1 % or 0.6% of public sector pay is a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Public servants in this country are paid 40% more than the average in the eurozone, according to Eurostat." " Its time for proper cuts, instead of a 2% or 1% cut public sector pay cut which may save a few hundred million . - the sooner the better."
In my opinion , and others, the 2% cuts outlined by the original poster would be a case of too little, too late.

kippy

jimmmy wrote: »

He is one of the top businessmen in the country, and someone who has created the biggest brand to come out of Ireland since the eighties. Its one of the biggest airlines in the world, and one of the few of Irelands home grown success stories. Along with another top Irrsh business person, they were asked in the papers at the weekend wat they would do with the economy ( he does seem to know a lot about controlling budgets etc ). Most people would find his opinions on the real world and economics more believeable and his business track record more plausible that the muppets - the social partners - who have been running the counrty / deciding govt expenditure over the past decade.
My point was " Its time for proper cuts, instead of a 2% or 1% cut public sector pay cut which may save a few hundred million . - the sooner the better." "Talking about 2% or 1 % or 0.6% of public sector pay is a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Public servants in this country are paid 40% more than the average in the eurozone, according to Eurostat."

Jimmy. I read your post earlier on the titanic and its deck chairs. No need to repeat it ad nausem throughout this and other threads.

I dont give a flipping toss who MoL is or what he has done. Fair play to him. His aims are to maximise profits for his airlines through whatever means are legally possibly. Why dont you ask bastions of business such as former chair people of banks for such as Anglo for their thoughts? They had the same roles within their companies and for a time were very good at it.
The top business people in this country up until the last 24 months were the heads of banks, did you hang on their every word?
I respect MoL as a business man, however his soundbits and lack of in depth specifics is laughable and anyone that cant see through what his intentions are when he speaks about politicians in this country is at the very least foolish.

I could do what he said, I'd cut the bill by 20 billion and increase income to state coffers by 10 more billion.

wandatowell

Im thinking around 6.5% pay cut

Dr Galen

jimmmy wrote: »

He is one of the top businessmen in the country, and someone who has created the biggest brand to come out of Ireland since the eighties. Its one of the biggest airlines in the world, and one of the few of Irelands home grown success stories. Along with another top Irrsh business person, they were asked in the papers at the weekend wat they would do with the economy ( he does seem to know a lot about controlling budgets etc ). Most people would find his opinions on the real world and economics more believeable and his business track record more plausible that the muppets - the social partners - who have been running the counrty / deciding govt expenditure over the past decade.
My point was"Talking about 2% or 1 % or 0.6% of public sector pay is a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Public servants in this country are paid 40% more than the average in the eurozone, according to Eurostat." " Its time for proper cuts, instead of a 2% or 1% cut public sector pay cut which may save a few hundred million . - the sooner the better."
In my opinion , and others, the 2% cuts outlined by the original poster would be a case of too little, too late.

in fairness Jimmmy I'd find a lot of peoples opinion more plausible than those running the country for the past while. Where Michael O'Leary comes on the plausibility ladder is still far from top though

Taxipete29

jimmmy wrote: »

He is one of the top businessmen in the country, and someone who has created the biggest brand to come out of Ireland since the eighties. Its one of the biggest airlines in the world, and one of the few of Irelands home grown success stories. Along with another top Irrsh business person, they were asked in the papers at the weekend wat they would do with the economy ( he does seem to know a lot about controlling budgets etc ). Most people would find his opinions on the real world and economics more believeable and his business track record more plausible that the muppets - the social partners - who have been running the counrty / deciding govt expenditure over the past decade.
My point was"Talking about 2% or 1 % or 0.6% of public sector pay is a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Public servants in this country are paid 40% more than the average in the eurozone, according to Eurostat." " Its time for proper cuts, instead of a 2% or 1% cut public sector pay cut which may save a few hundred million . - the sooner the better."
In my opinion , and others, the 2% cuts outlined by the original poster would be a case of too little, too late.

Yawn....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The_Conductor

Arguing that Irish public sector workers are paid 40% more than some of their European counterparts is taking an incredibly blinkered view though. Private sector employees are paid a commensurate amount above their EU colleagues also- and the cost of living in Ireland is according to Eurostat 38% higher than the EU average.

If you want to cut pay- you also need to cut the cost of living- or else you risk putting people who you would consider to be on reasonable wages, in penury.

If you are insistent on playing the public sector versus the private sector card- which you seem to be- the fact of the matter is that the public sector have had their net pay cut by 9% thus far. According to IBEC (who should know), over 75% of private sector employees have not had any reductions in salary thus far.

The whole exercise is moot.

Ireland is quite simply too expensive- on all levels. Pay in both public and private sector has to fall to levels that make us competitive when compared to international competitors. The cost of living also has to fall. We have the most expensive electricity in Europe, the second most expensive gas, the third highest rate of indirect taxation on goods and services, and stupid tax shelters that have hotels plonked around the country like so many mushrooms.........

Why do people insist on allowing the media herd us like sheep into a public sector versus private sector bashing frenzy? We need to sit down and figure how to get our costs down- and we need to reinvent Ireland from the bottom up.

If people imagine that the public sector and its paybill account for the lions share of Ireland's ills- think of all the companies in the private sector laying off workers- because its cheaper to up sticks and move elsewhere. I am not suggesting a race to the bottom- simply, if we are unable to compete- it indicates that we are probably in the wrong market. If we're insistent that we want an assembly line in Limerick- or a pill plant in Waterford- we need to see how we can add value to a process that can be performed literally anywhere in the world- and not throw our hands up in surprise when we hear about more redundancies.........

Ireland has a lot going for it- but if we are to succeed- we need to reinvent the country from the bottom up.......

Paulzx

jimmmy wrote: »

In my opinion .

Which we truly value:D

The_Conductor

OMD wrote: »

The government has said for ages that it wants to cut 1.3Billion from public sector pay bill. This works out at an average 6% cut. A lot of this will be cuts in overtime and early retirement/natural wastage and loss of contract workers. Why are people in both public sector and private sector surprised that the cuts will be this small. It has been flagged for months.

In 2009, Public Servants delivered savings of €1.3 Bn (Levy = €940m; Payroll Savings due to non-filling of vacancies = €150m; Pay Freeze = €230m)

In 2010, without any additional measures this will contribute €2,.4 Bn
(Levy = €1.1Bn; Payroll Reductions = €300m; Pay Freeze = €990m)

61% of government current expenditure was funded by borrowings in 2009.

A further EUR4billion in savings is actually peanuts- and only the first of many similar steps. We need to remove similar or higher amounts from the budget each year for the next 4-5 years, if we are ever to escape the spiralling effects of our ballooning national debt.

OMD

smccarrick wrote: »

In 2009, Public Servants delivered savings of €1.3 Bn (Levy = €940m; Payroll Savings due to non-filling of vacancies = €150m; Pay Freeze = €230m)

In 2010, without any additional measures this will contribute €2,.4 Bn
(Levy = €1.1Bn; Payroll Reductions = €300m; Pay Freeze = €990m)

61% of government current expenditure was funded by borrowings in 2009.

A further EUR4billion in savings is actually peanuts- and only the first of many similar steps. We need to remove similar or higher amounts from the budget each year for the next 4-5 years, if we are ever to escape the spiralling effects of our ballooning national debt.

I accept all you are saying. (although how did the pay freeze save money except reduce the amount they expected to spend rather than actually reducing the spend)

My point though is about the current pay cuts. I posted the Times link because it agrees with what I have also thought. The coming pay cuts are going to be relatively small. I don't see the point in striking about them.

Riskymove

OMD wrote: »

(although how did the pay freeze save money except reduce the amount they expected to spend rather than actually reducing the spend)

i found that odd too, while I beleive its right to include it as soemthing that public servants have given up it does not affect the pay bill figure

P. Breathnach

OMD wrote: »

... (although how did the pay freeze save money except reduce the amount they expected to spend rather than actually reducing the spend)...

That's the nature of budgets. An amount that was planned for has not been spent.

View

smccarrick wrote: »

If you are insistent on playing the public sector versus the private sector card- which you seem to be- the fact of the matter is that the public sector have had their net pay cut by 9% thus far.

Are you referring to the pensions' levy when you mention the 9% pay cut?

The pensions' levy is a charge to fund the public sector pension scheme - a scheme that analyst warned was unsustainable years ago. There are few, if any, companies in the private sector offering a pensions scheme that comes anyway close to it.

If you are going to insist on classifing the pensions' levy as a pay cut, then by all means do so, but in that case the Government then needs to apply an additional levy to fund the shortfall in the public sector pension scheme.

K-9

smccarrick wrote: »

Arguing that Irish public sector workers are paid 40% more than some of their European counterparts is taking an incredibly blinkered view though. Private sector employees are paid a commensurate amount above their EU colleagues also- and the cost of living in Ireland is according to Eurostat 38% higher than the EU average.

If you want to cut pay- you also need to cut the cost of living- or else you risk putting people who you would consider to be on reasonable wages, in penury.

If you are insistent on playing the public sector versus the private sector card- which you seem to be- the fact of the matter is that the public sector have had their net pay cut by 9% thus far. According to IBEC (who should know), over 75% of private sector employees have not had any reductions in salary thus far.

The whole exercise is moot.

Ireland is quite simply too expensive- on all levels. Pay in both public and private sector has to fall to levels that make us competitive when compared to international competitors. The cost of living also has to fall. We have the most expensive electricity in Europe, the second most expensive gas, the third highest rate of indirect taxation on goods and services, and stupid tax shelters that have hotels plonked around the country like so many mushrooms.........

Why do people insist on allowing the media herd us like sheep into a public sector versus private sector bashing frenzy? We need to sit down and figure how to get our costs down- and we need to reinvent Ireland from the bottom up.

If people imagine that the public sector and its paybill account for the lions share of Ireland's ills- think of all the companies in the private sector laying off workers- because its cheaper to up sticks and move elsewhere. I am not suggesting a race to the bottom- simply, if we are unable to compete- it indicates that we are probably in the wrong market. If we're insistent that we want an assembly line in Limerick- or a pill plant in Waterford- we need to see how we can add value to a process that can be performed literally anywhere in the world- and not throw our hands up in surprise when we hear about more redundancies.........

Ireland has a lot going for it- but if we are to succeed- we need to reinvent the country from the bottom up.......

Private Sector pay is reducing. Unfortunately, the PS looks at private sector wages from a PS view.

If you look at the industry and financial services sectors, wage costs are coming down:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1018498.shtml

So, wage costs are coming down through redundancies, less hours worked, less bonuses and increased productivity.

Looking at it from just "70% haven't taken cuts", ignores the fact that in industry alone, 10% have taken a 100% pay cut.

So, labour costs are coming down in the private sector, just not in a way that is comparable to the Public Sector as of now.

irish_bob

while it isnt realistic to do it in one foul swoop and i suspect michael o leary knows this , i think when he said cut 20 billion , he meant having a huge cull of numbers employed in the public sector , therefore the pay cut for the remainder would not be that huge , in the region of around 15% on average which is reasonable

irish_bob

smccarrick wrote: »

Arguing that Irish public sector workers are paid 40% more than some of their European counterparts is taking an incredibly blinkered view though. Private sector employees are paid a commensurate amount above their EU colleagues also- and the cost of living in Ireland is according to Eurostat 38% higher than the EU average.

If you want to cut pay- you also need to cut the cost of living- or else you risk putting people who you would consider to be on reasonable wages, in penury.

If you are insistent on playing the public sector versus the private sector card- which you seem to be- the fact of the matter is that the public sector have had their net pay cut by 9% thus far. According to IBEC (who should know), over 75% of private sector employees have not had any reductions in salary thus far.

The whole exercise is moot.

Ireland is quite simply too expensive- on all levels. Pay in both public and private sector has to fall to levels that make us competitive when compared to international competitors. The cost of living also has to fall. We have the most expensive electricity in Europe, the second most expensive gas, the third highest rate of indirect taxation on goods and services, and stupid tax shelters that have hotels plonked around the country like so many mushrooms.........

Why do people insist on allowing the media herd us like sheep into a public sector versus private sector bashing frenzy? We need to sit down and figure how to get our costs down- and we need to reinvent Ireland from the bottom up.

If people imagine that the public sector and its paybill account for the lions share of Ireland's ills- think of all the companies in the private sector laying off workers- because its cheaper to up sticks and move elsewhere. I am not suggesting a race to the bottom- simply, if we are unable to compete- it indicates that we are probably in the wrong market. If we're insistent that we want an assembly line in Limerick- or a pill plant in Waterford- we need to see how we can add value to a process that can be performed literally anywhere in the world- and not throw our hands up in surprise when we hear about more redundancies.........

Ireland has a lot going for it- but if we are to succeed- we need to reinvent the country from the bottom up.......

the average cut in ps pay from the pension levy is nowhere near 9% , considering those at the top took a 10% cut and (they are in a minority )those at the bottom took a 2% cut , that leaves an average of 6%

The_Conductor

irish_bob wrote: »

the average cut in ps pay from the pension levy is nowhere near 9% , considering those at the top took a 10% cut and (they are in a minority )those at the bottom took a 2% cut , that leaves an average of 6%

I said the public sector have had their net pay cut by 9% thus far- and that IBEC have stated that over 75% of private sector employees have not had a reduction in salary thus far. I was actually quoting an article in the Sunday Business Post. I did not state or imply that the sole source of the reduction in public sector net pay was the imposition of the pensions levy- I believe the reduction in overtime/travel and subsistence along with other levies and the increase in PRSI- were at least as culpable for the reduction.

I never mentioned the pension levy- you did......

gerry28

Anyone in receipt of social welfare payments of any kind should be scared stiff of MoL's influence.

They would not fair too well if his ideas were followed closely.

The_Conductor

OMD wrote: »

I accept all you are saying. (although how did the pay freeze save money except reduce the amount they expected to spend rather than actually reducing the spend)

My point though is about the current pay cuts. I posted the Times link because it agrees with what I have also thought. The coming pay cuts are going to be relatively small. I don't see the point in striking about them.

The saving was through a deferment (indefinitely) of pay rises which had been agreed with government and with the unions via the Towards 2016 process. What is particularly galling to folk on all sides of the equation- is that it was paid to bank employees from bailout money, along with staff of some state bodies which are acknowledged to be benefitting from price gouging- such as ESB staff (we have the most expensive electricity in Europe).

Obviously Towards 2016 needs to be revisited in light of the current turmoil the country finds itself in- but why on earth were the banks allowed pay increases to staff- after the mess they've left the country to deal with?

Personally I don't see any point in striking- because I don't understand what the public sector unions hope to achieve. If they imagine that paycuts are not going to happen- they are deluded. If they would rather have a voice in how the cuts are implemented- standing outside a door waving a placcard- is hardly a good starting point- is it?

Whats startling- is that there is strife and unrest over this 4 billion of cuts- this is only stage 1 in the process- we plan to cut another 5 billion next year, another 4 billion the next year and a further 4 billion the following year. We will still have a Debt:GDP ratio worse than Italy's by 2020 even with these savage cutbacks.

People really don't comprehend just how severe the cuts coming down the road are going to be........

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

the average cut in ps pay from the pension levy is nowhere near 9% , considering those at the top took a 10% cut and (they are in a minority )those at the bottom took a 2% cut , that leaves an average of 6%

Source? Or are you making things up?