24th Nov Strikes... What a joke

Stark

prinz wrote: »

Builders made their decision to go into that industry. I haven't got an ounce of pity. They were the ones driving the jeeps and SUV's etc, coining it in. I know of an independent plumber who freely admitted to myself that he was charging €180 per hour on call outs. That was the minimum charge. He worked in half hour blocks, so if you called him out, he had a look for 10 minutes and left, €90 charge. If he actually did anything that was extra labour and parts. I was talking to him during the week. He freely admitted to taking every penny he could get, while he could get it.

That's the perks of working an insecure job. For example if you work in IT, you have a choice between working a secure job with average pay or go contracting and earn crazy money but with no guarantee of where the next contract is coming from. PS workers seem to want the crazy money and the job security. You can't have both.

Mr Goon wrote:

Tell you what, tax people 60% of their income over €52,000 and see the private sector have a collective seisure. Bring it on I say, it won't affect anyone on low pay (public OR private) or the unemployed.

Won't affect me either. Until my employer pulls out of the country that is. We're already losing foreign investment as companies are put off by our high marginal tax rate.

Sizzler

Jack O'Connor on with Matt Cooper at the moment and has not put up one single solution, all he has spouted is union rhetoric, "we need a coherent solution over a sustained period" SUSTAINED PERIOD? WTF :eek:

And still didnt give one solution in how to ease the budget deficit. Some clown. The lemmings following these lads need to ask serious questions of their leadership.

force eleven

Did I hear right? Another day off for the teachers etc on December 3rd? A complete shambles this country is in. We'll be bankrupt in a couple of years and these clowns think they are immune?

Sure, it isn't their fault we are where we are, but we all remember the clamour for benchmarking and the greed that accompanied that, they wanted to strike then as well if they didnt get their share of the Celtic Tiger pie.

Get a grip public service.

Sizzler

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Depends, its six per entrance maybe there are a lot of entrances to that place. You could report them to the Gardai.

Just passed Tara St fire station. At least 40 fireman outside.

I'll call the cops now and let them know shall I :rolleyes:

Mr Goon

Stark wrote: »

Won't affect me either. Until my employer pulls out of the country that is. We're already losing foreign investment as companies are put off by our high marginal tax rate.

Employers don't give a damn what marginal rate you pay. They still pay 12.5% Corporation Tax which won't be increased, so unless the government increases employers PRSI, your employer will pay the same no matter what your tax rate is.

lazer.blue

Great to see this public sector private sector divide increasing isn't it - well if you are the government that is. This is exactly what they want, deflect attention from their own incompetence. I was made redundant from my private sector job in January so I suppose that makes me one of the people that many say would be happy to have a job in the public sector and would keep their head down if they did. Well I would be happy to have a job in the public sector but I would not keep my head down and be walked all over like I was by my former employers. I have family in the public service who have been on the picket line today. I support them today and will support them if/when they go on strike again. Everyone should have to carry the burden of the mess this country is in and the better off should carry the greater proportion of that burden. If politicians are serious about leading by example then they should start by cutting their own salaries by 50%.

marco_polo

kippy wrote: »

Of course it arises.
Do you honestly think that this cut will save the state having to borrow?

Crazily enough yes I do.

It'll save the state having to borrow for Public sector wages, but it will mean they have more leeway to borrow for other things, such as recapitalisation of the banking sector.
Thats how things work in this country.

No it won't as we are already four times over the EU deficit rules.

irish_bob

here are guards wage levels and other public servants


http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS


here are nurse wage levels

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

here are added allowances for nurses

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=4680&mid=6977

and some more

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=4681&mid=6977

prinz

Stark wrote: »

That's the perks of working an insecure job. For example if you work in IT, you have a choice between working a secure job with average pay or go contracting and earn crazy money but with no guarantee of where the next contract is coming from. PS workers seem to want the crazy money and the job security. You can't have both..

If the crazy money was the same in public and private why didn't more people go public? Why is there a massive proportion of construction sector workers on the dole? Greed.

force eleven wrote: »

Sure, it isn't their fault we are where we are, but we all remember the clamour for benchmarking and the greed that accompanied that, they wanted to strike then as well if they didnt get their share of the Celtic Tiger pie..

Yeah, my God, imagine they actually wanted to be able to afford the cost of living..b*stards!!

oscarBravo

lazer.blue wrote: »

Everyone should have to carry the burden of the mess this country is in and the better off should carry the greater proportion of that burden.

That's a sentiment I've heard expressed quite regularly, but let's remember that the burden amounts to some two billion euro per month.

How many better-off are there, and how much will they have to pay to make a dent in two billion euro?

That's not a rhetorical question. The unions would have us believe that taxing the rich will solve this problem. I'd like to see some numbers.

If politicians are serious about leading by example then they should start by cutting their own salaries by 50%.

How big a dent will that make in two billion euro? Numbers, please.

The Volt

irish_bob wrote: »

here are guards wage levels and other public servants


http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS


here are nurse wage levels

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

here are added allowances for nurses

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=4680&mid=6977

and some more

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=4681&mid=6977

I don't think 50k a year for a policeman is excessive. That's nowhere near what they start out at either.

brianthebard

Sizzler wrote: »

And still didnt give one solution in how to ease the budget deficit.

Didn't know he had become the minister for finance lately. Another union bashing thread on boards, who' have thunk it? :rolleyes:

zeus faber

lazer.blue wrote: »

Great to see this public sector private sector divide increasing isn't it - well if you are the government that is. This is exactly what they want, deflect attention from their own incompetence. I was made redundant from my private sector job in January so I suppose that makes me one of the people that many say would be happy to have a job in the public sector and would keep their head down if they did. Well I would be happy to have a job in the public sector but I would not keep my head down and be walked all over like I was by my former employers. I have family in the public service who have been on the picket line today. I support them today and will support them if/when they go on strike again. Everyone should have to carry the burden of the mess this country is in and the better off should carry the greater proportion of that burden. If politicians are serious about leading by example then they should start by cutting their own salaries by 50%.

Well said lazer, its exactly what the govt want

irish_bob

Mr Goon wrote: »

The average teacher earns nothing like €60k per year. Those at the top of the scale can earn that but most of us are nowhere near that.

FYI, I am in the public sector for 7 years. I STILL do not earn what I was on the day I finished in the private sector. Yes, I have benefits (holidays, pension etc) but this idea that ALL public servants are overpaid is crazy.

so the CSO figures are incorrect then

prinz

irish_bob wrote: »

so the CSO figures are incorrect then

Bob I do believe it has already been demonstrated to you on another thread how averages work and how those figures actually break down.

force eleven

prinz wrote: »

If the crazy money was the same in public and private why didn't more people go public? Why is there a massive proportion of construction sector workers on the dole? Greed.



Yeah, my God, imagine they actually wanted to be able to afford the cost of living..b*stards!!

Give me a break. They were well looked after, and plenty of private sector workers were too, as were the construction sector. But it has collapsed, and everyone has to take some pain. It is bloody hard, I know, trying to keep an actual roof over my head, but a little realism from the union leaders would be welcome.

Sizzler

brianthebard wrote: »

Didn't know he had become the minister for finance lately. Another union bashing thread on boards, who' have thunk it? :rolleyes:

OK, so we have a guy who is representing thousands of union members but he doesnt have any answers, so what exactly is he talking about when hes at the negotiating table If he doesnt understand the fundamentals he shouldnt be privy to that position, simple.

kippy

marco_polo wrote: »

Crazily enough yes I do.



No it won't as we are already four times over the EU deficit rules.

So you'd prefer see a few more Billion pumped into Anglo, BoI, AiB etc, cos thats where the 1.3 billion or so "saved" from the public pay bill is going to end up. Whatever way you dress it up.....

The Volt

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a sentiment I've heard expressed quite regularly, but let's remember that the burden amounts to some two billion euro per month.

How many better-off are there, and how much will they have to pay to make a dent in two billion euro?

That's not a rhetorical question. The unions would have us believe that taxing the rich will solve this problem. I'd like to see some numbers. How big a dent will that make in two billion euro? Numbers, please.

All that's required is that people pay according to their ability to pay and at the moment, the wealthy in this country use tax dodges and accountants to ensure they pay a smaller percentage of their wealth in tax than ordinary PAYE workers.

brianthebard

Sizzler wrote: »

OK, so we have a guy who is representing thousands of union members but he doesnt have any answers, so what exactly is he talking about when hes at the negotiating table If he doesnt understand the fundamentals he shouldnt be privy to that position, simple.

You seem to be confused about what a Trade Union does. It represents its members and seeks to maintain and improve their working experience. Trade Union representatives are not required to walk into the dept of finance and provide a alternative budgetary plan.

irish_bob

Voltwad wrote: »

I don't think 50k a year for a policeman is excessive. That's nowhere near what they start out at either.

1200 per week is 60 k per year and whoever heard of anyone starting out on the average , they start off on around 33k , we have the highest paid police force in the EU , if you want to pay extra tax so as that statistic remains , fine , not everyone does , the problem is that it was the taxes from the property boom and only the property boom which allowed bertie to increae guard , teacher and nurses wages to the levels at which they are , it was not income tax receipts which bankrolled the highest public sector in europe and it wont be income tax receipts which funds it now

kippy

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a sentiment I've heard expressed quite regularly, but let's remember that the burden amounts to some two billion euro per month.

How many better-off are there, and how much will they have to pay to make a dent in two billion euro?

That's not a rhetorical question. The unions would have us believe that taxing the rich will solve this problem. I'd like to see some numbers. How big a dent will that make in two billion euro? Numbers, please.

There was a table in the indo a few days ago showing tax take based on wages and also how many people were on those wages. Persons in PAYE earning over 1 million a year (there were 900 or so of them) were making up 7% of the the whole PAYE tax take.
The figures were good reading for anyone against what the unions are saying about taxing the rich, cant dig them up but the PAYE rich are certainly paying more than their share.

Unions will say however it is the non PAYE that are getting away scot free, which I also find hard to believe.

Mr Goon

irish_bob wrote: »

so the CSO figures are incorrect then

There is a world of difference between average pay and what the average person is paid. If 2 are paid €20,000 and one is paid €110,000 then average pay is €50,000, but 2/3rd don't earn that. I have no issue with taxing high-earners, but there are plenty of public sector workers who are hard pushed to pay the bills on the salaries they earn.

Go ahead though, tar us all with the one brush if it makes you happy.

prinz

force eleven wrote: »

It is bloody hard, I know, trying to keep an actual roof over my head, but a little realism from the union leaders would be welcome.

Exactly, and my point is realism is a commodity in short supply in threads like this. A little realism from some private sector workers would be welcome too, rather than some half-arsed bandwagon tirade about the numbers of people in Coppers on a Monday night, and sure everyone knows all public sector workers are on at least a grand a week :rolleyes: nonsense.

force eleven

prinz wrote: »

Exactly, and my point is realism is a commodity in short supply in threads like this. A little realism from some private sector workers would be welcome too, rather than some half-arsed bandwagon tirade about the numbers of people in Coppers on a Monday night, and sure everyone knows all public sector workers are on at least a grand a week :rolleyes: nonsense.

Well, we'll all get our chance to show our disapproval/approval of our current Dail masters soon, I sincerely hope. Not that that will solve anything. Other than that, let the IMF come in and sort it out, and they will, I assure you, bring us back to those heady days of the mid 1980's, which I can remember well, and things are still like a cake walk compared to then. But for how long?

Pete M.

Ah shur it's great to see we're holding onto some of our old traditions anyway.

I'm just back from 5 hours in the rain on the picket in Sligo and to see some of the comments here giving out about PS workers makes me pretty sad about the whole situation.

I ask anyone here who doesn't support us, what would you do in the same situation?

Would you sit back and let the Government who mishandled, (thats putting it politely) the boom to dictate to you how they are going to deal with the bust and that is by shafting you, repeatedly, while allowing the banks etc. to keep on chugging away with our (all of us private, public, whatever, taxes like) hard earned cash?

We're not living in a separate alternative universe you know, we are your brothers and sisters, friends and neighbours and now is not the time to be giving out about each other.

How many people working in the public sector at the moment are supporting families where the other partner has lost a job in the private sector?

I'd say quite a few and it is pretty short sighted, petty and ignorant to give out about the people who run the hospitals, local authorities etc. when they are only doing what you would do yourselves.

It's great that some of you amateur economists out there reckon that cutting public pay is the panacea to the problem, but putting it quite simply, that is horsesh1t.

OK, fair enough, I think we all accept that there will be further cuts, but do you really expect us to just roll over and take another 7-10% paycut without showing that we may be a little peeved about it?

I'm sure those of you who are quick to give out about PS workers are the ones who would grumble the most if faced with a similar situation.

As for the traffic etc. going into norn iron to do the bit of shopping, how can this be proven to have anything to do with the strikes?
Perhaps it does, but how relevant is it? People were rostered to picket for about 2 hours each, to ensure that the pickets weren't too big and that no-one had to stand there for too long and as was said some had to take the day off to take care of the kids, so why not head up if you have a few hours to yourself? We're not getting paid for the day, strike pay only happens where its more than one day as far as I know.

For fcuks sake, wake up and realise that we are in the sh1t and that there will be action like this because even public sector workers get pissed off sometimes too you know.

And to those of you here who are on the dole because you can't find work or because you were let go, sincere commiserations, but remember that it's the taxes that we continue to pay that pay for it. The PS Unions also oppose cuts in social welfare so we're trying to stand up to the shower of idiots we have in Government for you as well as us.

The Volt

irish_bob wrote: »

1200 per week is 60 k per year and whoever heard of anyone starting out on the average , they start off on around 33k , we have the highest paid police force in the EU , if you want to pay extra tax so as that statistic remains , fine , not everyone does , the problem is that it was the taxes from the property boom and only the property boom which allowed bertie to increae guard , teacher and nurses wages to the levels at which they are , it was not income tax receipts which bankrolled the highest public sector in europe and it wont be income tax receipts which funds it now

Over-dependance on taxes from the property boom was as a result of policy decisions by Fianna Fail to move away from personal and corporation taxation and even an idiot knows that construction doesn't create wealth for a country. But it certainly created wealth for the golden circle of property developers and land owners so, now, they should certainly pay more than their fair share to get us out of this mess that they created.

Sizzler

brianthebard wrote: »

You seem to be confused about what a Trade Union does. It represents its members and seeks to maintain and improve their working experience. Trade Union representatives are not required to walk into the dept of finance and provide a alternative budgetary plan.

You seem to be confused then as to what the likes of Begg and O'Connor or getting involved in. They are accepting that cuts need to be made and they want to work with the government to ensure an agreement is made that is pallatable to their members. The exact same happened a few years ago when they were looking for rises, aka benchmarking.

The fact remains that the govt need savings and the public sector has been roundly identified as being a key contributor in achieving the desired goal. If the unions want to be involved then they have to participate, no? The facts have been laid out for them and part of the process is they provide solutions, if this is beyond them then they arent doing a very good job are they? They dont need to be the minister for finance to have an appreciation for basic monetary policy FFS.

The unions came away with a victory the last time with benchmarking, they had an appreciation of the fiscal circumstances then did they not? They looked for X and settled for Y, this time sadly for them the X and Y variants will result in cuts. Unions are there to get the best deal for their members as you have just said, in this case that deal might be 8% cut instead of 10% but yet they havent come up with any answers have they? Sadly lacking, not bashing, fact. Their dilly dallying and repetitive posturing is all becoming a little bit tiresome now and is not doing their members any favours as the clock ticks nearer the 9th of December.

seamus

Voltwad wrote: »

All that's required is that people pay according to their ability to pay and at the moment, the wealthy in this country use tax dodges and accountants to ensure they pay a smaller percentage of their wealth in tax than ordinary PAYE workers.

Time to trot out the usual figues. I don't even know if these are right anymore;
50% of PAYE workers in this country pay zero tax. The top 6.5% of earners pay 49% of the income tax in this country.

So the excuses of tax dodges and loopholes are a red herring when we're not even taxing half of our bloody workforce. The idea that we should be taxing the high earners even more is a joke and the idea that the common man is being screwed over while the "fat cats" cook the books is also a complete joke. The common man barely pays any tax and is in no position to dictate on that.

maggy_thatcher

Mr Goon wrote: »

Employers don't give a damn what marginal rate you pay. They still pay 12.5% Corporation Tax which won't be increased, so unless the government increases employers PRSI, your employer will pay the same no matter what your tax rate is.

Except of course if the high level execs in a multi-national are also paying this high marginal rate of tax. These execs have the influence to cause a business to relocate to a country without excessive taxation -- the result being this country is now minus the corporation tax and suddenly has a higher unemployment rate.

This is why you need to be careful about overtaxing.